To paraphrase a classic cartoon line...... "Which way do we go boss, which way do we go?" LOL
Major lithium discovery in fracking wastewater leaves the left facing EV 'irony'
One Democrat welcomed the news, calling it an opportunity for job creation and reduced reliance on China
The discovery of the potential for thousands of tons of lithium to be extracted annually from wastewater generated by fracking in the Marcellus Shale leaves proponents of a green energy future at a crossroads, Republicans said Thursday.
A
University of Pittsburgh study suggested processing byproducts from natural gas production in Pennsylvania's Marcellus Shale basin could potentially meet nearly half of U.S. lithium needs. The typical electric vehicle (EV) requires nearly 18 pounds of lithium to power its battery. That figure grows exponentially for Teslas, according to reports.
Rep. Guy Reschenthaler, R-Pa., who represents much of the Marcellus territory, told Fox News he wants to see those on the left change their tune.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/major-l...g-ev-irony
The free market will decide what the best source of lithium is. If the Chinese want to subsidize their lithium exports, so what?
(06-08-2024, 11:22 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]The free market will decide what the best source of lithium is. If the Chinese want to subsidize their lithium exports, so what?
Why does it not surprise me that you would support buying lithium from China rather than support job creation and a product "made in the USA"? You commie democrats are all alike.
(06-08-2024, 02:50 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2024, 11:22 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]The free market will decide what the best source of lithium is. If the Chinese want to subsidize their lithium exports, so what?
Why does it not surprise me that you would support buying lithium from China rather than support job creation and a product "made in the USA"? You commie democrats are all alike.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand opportunity cost. Our workers can work on other things if China wants to sell lithium cheap. Plus we will have a bunch of batteries we didn't have before, they will probably make our economy more efficient overall.
I'm not opposed to fracking and I'm not opposed to extracting lithium from frack-water. But I don't want to subsidize it either.
(06-08-2024, 04:53 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2024, 02:50 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Why does it not surprise me that you would support buying lithium from China rather than support job creation and a product "made in the USA"? You commie democrats are all alike.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand opportunity cost. Our workers can work on other things if China wants to sell lithium cheap. Plus we will have a bunch of batteries we didn't have before, they will probably make our economy more efficient overall.
I'm not opposed to fracking and I'm not opposed to extracting lithium from frack-water. But I don't want to subsidize it either.
People don't want to subsidize businesses, which is understandable, but they want to put tariffs on Chinese imports. It's the same thing. A tariff on foreign products is a subsidy for domestic businesses.
(06-09-2024, 09:04 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2024, 04:53 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand opportunity cost. Our workers can work on other things if China wants to sell lithium cheap. Plus we will have a bunch of batteries we didn't have before, they will probably make our economy more efficient overall.
I'm not opposed to fracking and I'm not opposed to extracting lithium from frack-water. But I don't want to subsidize it either.
People don't want to subsidize businesses, which is understandable, but they want to put tariffs on Chinese imports. It's the same thing. A tariff on foreign products is a subsidy for domestic businesses.
It is a conundrum. You can’t have $20/hr minimum wage and expect to compete on a world stage either. So we ship off our manufacturing jobs and now wonder what to do with the displaced workers. How could we ever fight a war with China when they make all our [BLEEP]? And the left wonders why people want to Make America Great Again.
(06-09-2024, 09:04 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2024, 04:53 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand opportunity cost. Our workers can work on other things if China wants to sell lithium cheap. Plus we will have a bunch of batteries we didn't have before, they will probably make our economy more efficient overall.
I'm not opposed to fracking and I'm not opposed to extracting lithium from frack-water. But I don't want to subsidize it either.
People don't want to subsidize businesses, which is understandable, but they want to put tariffs on Chinese imports. It's the same thing. A tariff on foreign products is a subsidy for domestic businesses.
"Same thing" is a stretch. Tariffs allow consumers to still make their own decision but obviously price encourages them in a particular direction. Subsidies often prop up bad ideas or bad business models for political or ideological reasons.
Tariffs are not a bad idea when the playing field isn't level. The playing field isn't level when the cost of labor in China is kept artificially low. The US has the most attractive economy in the world to do business in. We shouldn't be giving unfriendly regimes unfettered access to it which by extension allows them to enrich themselves with which to metaphorically throw their weight around in opposition to us later.
(06-09-2024, 12:28 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2024, 09:04 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] People don't want to subsidize businesses, which is understandable, but they want to put tariffs on Chinese imports. It's the same thing. A tariff on foreign products is a subsidy for domestic businesses.
"Same thing" is a stretch. Tariffs allow consumers to still make their own decision but obviously price encourages them in a particular direction. Subsidies often prop up bad ideas or bad business models for political or ideological reasons.
Tariffs are not a bad idea when the playing field isn't level. The playing field isn't level when the cost of labor in China is kept artificially low. The US has the most attractive economy in the world to do business in. We shouldn't be giving unfriendly regimes unfettered access to it which by extension allows them to enrich themselves with which to metaphorically throw their weight around in opposition to us later.
You're still free to make your own decision when there is a subsidy. You can choose to buy the subsidized thing or the unsubsidized thing. Same as a tariff.
When China keeps their labor costs artificially low, they are short changing and sometimes even oppressing their laborers. To a degree, we get to sit back and laugh at that. When most laborers can't afford a place of their own with privacy, it's a real handicap to all sorts of economic growth.
(06-09-2024, 09:10 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2024, 12:28 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]"Same thing" is a stretch. Tariffs allow consumers to still make their own decision but obviously price encourages them in a particular direction. Subsidies often prop up bad ideas or bad business models for political or ideological reasons.
Tariffs are not a bad idea when the playing field isn't level. The playing field isn't level when the cost of labor in China is kept artificially low. The US has the most attractive economy in the world to do business in. We shouldn't be giving unfriendly regimes unfettered access to it which by extension allows them to enrich themselves with which to metaphorically throw their weight around in opposition to us later.
You're still free to make your own decision when there is a subsidy. You can choose to buy the subsidized thing or the unsubsidized thing. Same as a tariff.
When China keeps their labor costs artificially low, they are short changing and sometimes even oppressing their laborers. To a degree, we get to sit back and laugh at that. When most laborers can't afford a place of their own with privacy, it's a real handicap to all sorts of economic growth.
On the totem pole of things I'm concerned about, the plight of the Chinese worker is on the lower end, not that I don't have sympathy for them. A tariff is a tool to entice consumers to behave a certain way either to punish foreign bad actors or to help US business domestically or both. The plight of the Chinese worker is a secondary or tertiary concern and it's, quite frankly, their business to resolve it if it is to ever be resolved. However, the artificially low labor costs do allow them to dominate markets which negatively affects US business in the markets we compete directly with them in or perhaps markets we would like to compete with them in but can't currently. Where money flows in an economy should matter to the consumer to some degree. For many consumers it unfortunately doesn't.
The whole point of a subsidy is to keep a business alive that otherwise would fall in on itself. Most of the time, that's due to it being a bad idea or a bad business model and the consumer won't or doesn't support it. There are times when subsidies are good though. The government subsidizes farmers by paying them not to grow crops on certain land. This is good because if the farmer decided to put that land to use in some other fashion or to sell the land to a developer it would not be there in a time when we really need it to be crop producing and you can't just magically turn unused and undeveloped land into farm land overnight. So farmers get paid not to farm certain land which sounds ridiculous on its face, but actually makes sense in the broader view.
Also, there's a velocity of money component with actual consumerism that isn't there with subsidies. Good ideas and good business models sustain themselves and grow and by extension grow the economy. If the product isn't worthy in the consumer's eyes, but the company making it is subsidized by the government to stay in business... whoopty freakin' do. I guess they'll be in business next year too, but if the consumer isn't supporting the product because the product is inferior to others out there what are we really doing other than likely providing cash for political favors and vice versa? That's not what's going on when a tariff is slapped on a foreign product.
I suppose the way to admittedly oversimplify it is a subsidy can sometimes be the government's way of picking a domestic winner. A tariff is the government's way of picking a foreign loser. Assuming multiple business are competing in a given market, the market itself (and not the government) is still deciding who the winner is amongst the remaining competitors even when tariffs are involved. The government shouldn't be picking winners and losers, the market should decide that, but, as I've said previously, the playing field isn't always level as in the case with China and I don't necessarily mind the government picking foreign losers from time to time depending on the circumstances. Our politicians should be predisposed toward US business over foreign business to some degree anyway. Regardless, tariffs and subsidies are pretty clearly not the same thing.