Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Really? Really? How compassionate of you. If Hillary had said something like that ...

 

Hillary has never said anything fiscally conservative, unless she was lying. 

Quote:Hillary has never said anything fiscally conservative, unless she was lying. 

 

So - stealing from a retired cop is just being "fiscally conservative"?

 

You should be in politics.

Hillary has nothing to do with this discussion.

[quote name="Adam2012" post="778778" timestamp=


However - clearly jagibelieve, Rashean and Byron don't have a clue (lol at least regarding this subject.)


We really should be raising the millage rate and the sales tax - but Curry is a Republican and will apparently be taken out back and shot if he dares say "tax increase".[/quote]


I may be wrong - again. Maybe I can take a few days off.


Maybe the shipyards fraud stemmed from bailout money and NOT the better Jacksonville plan...

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-12/story/kessler-holzendorf-gets-4-years-fraud#showInfo=http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-12/story/kessler-holzendorf-gets-4-years-fraud?fmt=www'>http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-12/story/kessler-holzendorf-gets-4-years-fraud#showInfo=http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-12/story/kessler-holzendorf-gets-4-years-fraud?fmt=www</a>


Anyway - nice comeuppance regardless

Quote:I'm all for doing something, but this plan is awful. Doesn't provide any real immediate assistance and kicks the can down the road. Have to vote no. Expected more from Accountant Lenny on this.

Quote:A better plan would be to approve slot machines at the Best Bet and have taxes on that go directly to the pension.

 

That would be a start.  Along with it converting current and future employees to self-owned 401k plans should also be part of the solution.

Does the Better Jacksonville plan ever actually end? I.e, will sales tax go back down to 6%?

Quote:Does the Better Jacksonville plan ever actually end? I.e, will sales tax go back down to 6%?

In 2030

"Stealing" from a retired cop?  Yes.  We're going to "steal" from everyone.  Promises were made that cannot be kept.  They already reduced the pension payouts for a Teamster's plan in the Midwest.  It was the only way to save the plan.  None of us is going to receive what was promised.  I don't expect to ever collect a dime from Social Security, and I've been paying into it at 2x the rate most people do.  I'm not complaining.  I would trade my SS account for $1000 right now if they would let me. 

Quote:"Stealing" from a retired cop?  Yes.  We're going to "steal" from everyone.  Promises were made that cannot be kept.  They already reduced the pension payouts for a Teamster's plan in the Midwest.  It was the only way to save the plan.  None of us is going to receive what was promised.  I don't expect to ever collect a dime from Social Security, and I've been paying into it at 2x the rate most people do.  I'm not complaining.  I would trade my SS account for $1000 right now if they would let me. 

 

This country is in deep deep trouble if SS does in-fact run out.

Quote:The problem is, the people who this funds were promised this money when they worked for the city and weren't given the option of 401Ks etc.


We have to pay it one way or another (it's a legal debt) the only question is how we raise the money.


The last few years they have borrowed from the city budget to pay it, taking money out of the budgets of the city's park division (which cuts down on cutting the grass, replacing lights and other park necessities) amongst other city services.

 

I just went back and re-read your initial post, and see where I had a first misunderstanding.  I didn't realize that the proposal was part of the Better Jacksonville Plan.

 

My answer to the poll is still NO because the Better Jacksonville Plan is legislation that has already been passed for a specific purpose.

 

The way that I see this issue is that there several problems here.

 

1.  Pensions should go away for city employees and replaced with individual retirement plans (if it hasn't been done already).  I don't mind if the city makes a contribution to said retirement plans the way a private employer does, but it must be reasonable and it must be a matching contribution.  In other words, put the responsibility of saving for retirement back into the hands of the employees.

 

2.  Pensions already promised need to be honored, and in this case it should be negotiated as to where the "cutoff" is going to be for current employees.  As an example, employees with less than 5 years of service would be converted to a 401k plan with perhaps a very small contribution to start it.  Employees with more than 5 years of service but less than 10 years would be converted to 401k's with a little bit larger contribution to start it, etc.  Employees over a certain number of years will still get their normal pension, anyone with less than that "magic number" of years would be converted.

 

3.  Current and future pensions that are owed must be paid for.  The first place that I would look for funding is to find the "waste".  Where could the budget be cut in order to raise revenue?  The second place that I would look would be for alternative sources of revenue.  Kottie presented a good idea regarding possibly slot machines at the dog track.  I kind of call this a "voluntary tax" because people don't have to gamble, but they will.  Just take a look at how much revenue comes in from the Lotto.  The next step would be a tax increase of some kind, and the very first increase (if necessary) should be in the form of sales tax.  This is the most "fair" to everybody that lives in Duval County and would also bring revenue in from people that may live in other counties but work and frequent Duval.  It also would generate revenue from visitors (think Jaguars games, etc.).

 

As far as 0.5%?  I don't know what the number should be but after taking the steps that I outlined above it might not even be necessary.

Quote:I just went back and re-read your initial post, and see where I had a first misunderstanding.  I didn't realize that the proposal was part of the Better Jacksonville Plan.

 

My answer to the poll is still NO because the Better Jacksonville Plan is legislation that has already been passed for a specific purpose.

 

The way that I see this issue is that there several problems here.

 

1.  Pensions should go away for city employees and replaced with individual retirement plans (if it hasn't been done already).  I don't mind if the city makes a contribution to said retirement plans the way a private employer does, but it must be reasonable and it must be a matching contribution.  In other words, put the responsibility of saving for retirement back into the hands of the employees.

 

2.  Pensions already promised need to be honored, and in this case it should be negotiated as to where the "cutoff" is going to be for current employees.  As an example, employees with less than 5 years of service would be converted to a 401k plan with perhaps a very small contribution to start it.  Employees with more than 5 years of service but less than 10 years would be converted to 401k's with a little bit larger contribution to start it, etc.  Employees over a certain number of years will still get their normal pension, anyone with less than that "magic number" of years would be converted.

 

3.  Current and future pensions that are owed must be paid for.  The first place that I would look for funding is to find the "waste".  Where could the budget be cut in order to raise revenue?  The second place that I would look would be for alternative sources of revenue.  Kottie presented a good idea regarding possibly slot machines at the dog track.  I kind of call this a "voluntary tax" because people don't have to gamble, but they will.  Just take a look at how much revenue comes in from the Lotto.  The next step would be a tax increase of some kind, and the very first increase (if necessary) should be in the form of sales tax.  This is the most "fair" to everybody that lives in Duval County and would also bring revenue in from people that may live in other counties but work and frequent Duval.  It also would generate revenue from visitors (think Jaguars games, etc.).

 

As far as 0.5%?  I don't know what the number should be but after taking the steps that I outlined above it might not even be necessary.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that most people count on something like SS because they are incapable of saving money themselves. If someone had control of their own retirement and could withdraw money at any point of their career, there are millions of irresponsible people who would do so without even thinking about life after retirement.

 

While I personally agree with you and would LOVE to invest for my own retirement, it sets a dangerous precedent. 

 

I kind of equate it to people who claim an inaccurate number of allowances on their taxes so they are guaranteed a larger tax return. The majority of these people don't realize the government is holding YOUR money, making interest off of it before returning it to its rightful owner.

Quote:I just went back and re-read your initial post, and see where I had a first misunderstanding. I didn't realize that the proposal was part of the Better Jacksonville Plan.


My answer to the poll is still NO because the Better Jacksonville Plan is legislation that has already been passed for a specific purpose.


The way that I see this issue is that there several problems here.


1. Pensions should go away for city employees and replaced with individual retirement plans (if it hasn't been done already). I don't mind if the city makes a contribution to said retirement plans the way a private employer does, but it must be reasonable and it must be a matching contribution. In other words, put the responsibility of saving for retirement back into the hands of the employees.


2. Pensions already promised need to be honored, and in this case it should be negotiated as to where the "cutoff" is going to be for current employees. As an example, employees with less than 5 years of service would be converted to a 401k plan with perhaps a very small contribution to start it. Employees with more than 5 years of service but less than 10 years would be converted to 401k's with a little bit larger contribution to start it, etc. Employees over a certain number of years will still get their normal pension, anyone with less than that "magic number" of years would be converted.


3. Current and future pensions that are owed must be paid for. The first place that I would look for funding is to find the "waste". Where could the budget be cut in order to raise revenue? The second place that I would look would be for alternative sources of revenue. Kottie presented a good idea regarding possibly slot machines at the dog track. I kind of call this a "voluntary tax" because people don't have to gamble, but they will. Just take a look at how much revenue comes in from the Lotto. The next step would be a tax increase of some kind, and the very first increase (if necessary) should be in the form of sales tax. This is the most "fair" to everybody that lives in Duval County and would also bring revenue in from people that may live in other counties but work and frequent Duval. It also would generate revenue from visitors (think Jaguars games, etc.).


As far as 0.5%? I don't know what the number should be but after taking the steps that I outlined above it might not even be necessary.

Teachers currently get an option to take a pension or investment plan. The investment plan is like a 401k. You vest in the investment plan after 1 year, but the pension plan takes 6. Duval really touts the advantages of the investment plan and most new teachers,to my knowledge, choose it. I think this is a bridge to eliminating pensions all together for teachers.

Quote:"Stealing" from a retired cop?  Yes.  We're going to "steal" from everyone.  Promises were made that cannot be kept.  They already reduced the pension payouts for a Teamster's plan in the Midwest.  It was the only way to save the plan.  None of us is going to receive what was promised.  I don't expect to ever collect a dime from Social Security, and I've been paying into it at 2x the rate most people do.  I'm not complaining.  I would trade my SS account for $1000 right now if they would let me. 

Quote:This country is in deep deep trouble if SS does in-fact run out.

 

This is really off-topic for this thread, but there are big-time problems with SS.  I hate to break it to you StroudCrowd1, but SS "ran out" a long time ago.  Now it's just a bunch of "IOU's".

Quote:This is really off-topic for this thread, but there are big-time problems with SS.  I hate to break it to you StroudCrowd1, but SS "ran out" a long time ago.  Now it's just a bunch of "IOU's".

 

Oh, I know, which is why I am not counting on a dime, and anything that I actually get will just be a cherry on top. I meant more "run out" from a perspective of there not actually being enough people working and contributing for them to actually make payouts. 

 

I agree with Byron LeftTown. I'd take a minimal lump sum payout right now.

Quote:The sad fact of the matter is that most people count on something like SS because they are incapable of saving money themselves. If someone had control of their own retirement and could withdraw money at any point of their career, there are millions of irresponsible people who would do so without even thinking about life after retirement.

 

While I personally agree with you and would LOVE to invest for my own retirement, it sets a dangerous precedent. 

 

I kind of equate it to people who claim an inaccurate number of allowances on their taxes so they are guaranteed a larger tax return. The majority of these people don't realize the government is holding YOUR money, making interest off of it before returning it to its rightful owner.

 

Again, this is off-topic for this thread (maybe I'll start a new one).  The fact of the matter is that EVERYONE that is working is capable of saving money for themselves for retirement.  People have no idea how much they are taxed for SS alone.  If that same amount of money was put into a modest investment, they would have way more when they reach retirement age than what SS is supposed to pay them.

 

The conservative principle is to allow people to do for themselves rather than depend on government to do for them.

Quote:Teachers currently get an option to take a pension or investment plan. The investment plan is like a 401k. You vest in the investment plan after 1 year, but the pension plan takes 6. Duval really touts the advantages of the investment plan and most new teachers,to my knowledge, choose it. I think this is a bridge to eliminating pensions all together for teachers.

 

That's a good thing.  The next step in my opinion is to eliminate the pension option altogether.

Quote:Are cops and firemen city employees?  I know a fire chief who did just that.  His pension is 10k+ more than he ever made if you take away that last year.

When I worked for COJ there was a separate Police & Fireman pension fund to which COJ contributed but did not manage.


Mea culpa if this is no longer true, but from what I've read the problem is with the general employee pension fund.

Quote:People have no idea how much they are taxed for SS alone. If that same amount of money was put into a modest investment, they would have way more when they reach retirement age than what SS is supposed to pay them.

.

I know it went up like 2 points about 2 or 3 years ago. Thanks Obama. Now we are at 4.5%?

Quote:"Stealing" from a retired cop?  Yes.  We're going to "steal" from everyone.  Promises were made that cannot be kept.  They already reduced the pension payouts for a Teamster's plan in the Midwest.  It was the only way to save the plan.  None of us is going to receive what was promised.  I don't expect to ever collect a dime from Social Security, and I've been paying into it at 2x the rate most people do.  I'm not complaining.  I would trade my SS account for $1000 right now if they would let me. 

 

You are making no sense. If you don't understand the issue, just say so.

 

And who cares about your views on Soc. Sec.? Same old cliche - I won't live to see a dime, yada yada yada. That has nothing to do with this subject.

 

And there is money available for this plan. The topic is how to pay for it. It will be paid.

 

Now ... continue with your obsession with Hillary and whatever ...

The problem is this was a cronyism, good ol' boy special which was voted on and enacted. It's a terrible deal for taxpayers, and is unsustainable. But it is what it is. Our city's credit rating has dropped. We are broke. Something needs to be done. Pulling the pension is not a real option. And this fuzzy math plan Curry is floating isn't either. I will vote no (though I wish I had a plan I felt good enough to vote yes on) and when my property taxes inevitably go up, I will happily pay the increase as the good patriot I am.