Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

There have always been great debates on this message board over the years.

 

Leftwich v. Garrard

Tebow or not Tebow

In Gene We Trust or not

 

More recently, the subject of whether Caldwell and Bradley have had enough talent and time to succeed has been a major point of contention.  One side has been eager to fire both Bradley and Caldwell because the team has not come close to being a winning team in their tenure here.  The other side felt the first has been hasty, and that the team hasn't had time enough to accumulate enough talent to win.  Being a member of that "other side," now that the board has basked in the glow of the coup that represents the Jaguars first two picks this year, I thought it would be a good idea to examine the opening day starters of 2013 vs the projected opening day starters of 2016.

 

2013 offense                    2016 Offense 

 

QB-Gabbert                        QB-Bortles

RB-MJD                               RB-Yeldon

FB-Ta'ufo'ou                        TE Lewis or WR Lee

WR-C. Shorts                      WR-Allen Robinson

WR-A. Sanders ®              WR-Allen Hurns

TE-Lewis                             TE-Julius Thomas

LT-Monroe                           LT-Joeckel/Beachum

LG-Rackley                          LG-Cann

C-Meester                            C-???

RG-Nwaneri                          RG-Linder

RT-Joeckel ®                      RT-Parnell

 

2013 Defense                      2016 Defense

DE Jason Babin                     DE Dante Fowler, Jr.

DE Tyson Alualu                    DE Jared Odrick

DT Roy Miller                         DT Roy Miller

DT Senderrick Marks             DT Malik Jackson

LB Geno Hayes                     LB Telvin Smith

LB Poz                                   LB Jack ®

LB Russell Allen                     LB Skuta

CB Gratz ®                           CB-Ramsey ®

CB Ball                                   CB-House

FS Lowery                              FS-Gipson

SS Cyprien ®                       SS-Cyprien 

 

2013 starting lineups per http://www.pro-football-reference.com/bo...080jax.htm

 

Examining both starting lineups, certain questions arise.

 

1.  If these two squads played against each other, is there any way the 2013 squad is even close to being competitive with the 2016 squad?

 

2.  Are there any more than 4-5 players from that 2013 team that definitively starts over the 2016 team?

 

3.  Is it possible for this team to have gotten as talented as it is now any faster than it did?  If so, how?

 

I think a rational and objective comparison of the two rosters shows that at minimum, Caldwell has taken this team in the right direction from a purely talent perspective.  Furthermore, any rational and objective analysis would show that Bradley was completely hamstrung with a lack of talent his first two years.  Now that the team is stocked full of talent (which is not to say it is without weakness, but it is a night and day difference between 2013 and now), it is on Bradley to finally win.

 

But given the comparison between the two squads, I'd like to see the argument that Bradley/Caldwell could have won any earlier than 2015 expressed by their detractors.

WE R BAKE

It's the overall eliminating factor of patience that has many clamoring for Gus's job. But we sometimes forget that he's also learning too. Ron Riviera is a perfect example of being patient with a coach. Not to mention Gus will have Monte Kiffin in his ear this year consistently which can lend solid experience in decisions as well. This team has made some great improvements this far.

Quote:It's the overall eliminating factor of patience that has many clamoring for Gus's job. But we sometimes forget that he's also learning too. Ron Riviera is a perfect example of being patient with a coach. Not to mention Gus will have Monte Kiffin in his ear this year consistently which can lend solid experience in decisions as well. This team has made some great improvements this far.

I get that patience, or lack of it, is central to this debate.

 

But it should be obvious by now expecting the coaches to win with that 2013 roster was far less realistic than expecting the coaches to win with this current roster.

You have me depressed Bullseye.  Not so sure the current O-Line is better than the 2013 line due to Meester still being capable.  I think the 2016 O-Line will potentially knock them silly but... 

Quote:You have me depressed Bullseye.  Not so sure the current O-Line is better than the 2013 line due to Meester still being capable.  I think the 2016 O-Line will potentially knock them silly but... 

The difference between Linder and Cann vs. Rackley and Nwaneri is more than double the difference between an aging Meester and, at worst, Bernadeau or Bowanko.

This is the year we're supposed to see results. We've been patient as a fan base once again but this is the year it's supposed to start paying off. The targets not a .500 season or being competitive, it's the division. We should win the division THIS year. It was the same with Gene Smith's rebuild in 2012 that was the year it was all supposed to pay off. I feel 100x better at this same point in the building process vs in 2012 when Gene had just drafted a punter in the 3rd. 

 

It doesn't feel like we are far off, on paper it looks like we are about to have our moment. I'm excited more than I usually am for this season, that said anything less than the division and I'm wondering if we're still on the right path. 

Quote:You have me depressed Bullseye.  Not so sure the current O-Line is better than the 2013 line due to Meester still being capable.  I think the 2016 O-Line will potentially knock them silly but... 

that was kind'a my observation too; in a straight match up I'm not so sure that the 2013 line wasn't better than what we have in 2016. Clearly we have better receivers and a better QB than in 2013. I don't think the older MJD would keep up with the Yeldon, but given our present o-line...

 

We have more 'potential' talent on the roster now than proven talent in 2013 as far as the defense goes.

 

I'm inclined to agree that neither Gus or Superman could've done much with this teams roster the first couple of years. Last year was bad, but there was plenty of blame to go around; however, the onus of responsibility lies squarely on Gus now for the outcome of 2016.

Quote:that was kind'a my observation too; in a straight match up I'm not so sure that the 2013 line wasn't better than what we have in 2016. Clearly we have better receivers and a better QB than in 2013. I don't think the older MJD would keep up with the Yeldon, but given our present o-line...

 

We have more 'potential' talent on the roster now than proven talent in 2013 as far as the defense goes.

 

I'm inclined to agree that neither Gus or Superman could've done much with this teams roster the first couple of years. Last year was bad, but there was plenty of blame to go around; however, the onus of responsibility lies squarely on Gus now for the outcome of 2016.

Do you at least acknowledge/ admit the difference in guards between the two squads is a huge advantage for 2016?

 

If we have that as a starting point...

 

RT-rookie year and position switching Joeckel vs. Parnell.  Joeckel has the better feet, but Parnell is more powerful and nastier-which is more what you want at RT-and he played RT longer.  Edge 2016.

 

So right off the bat,3/5 OL positions go to 2016.

 

LT-Monroe 2013 vs. Joeckel/Beachum.  Both Monroe 2013 and Joeckel now had improved since their rookie years,but both were still inconsistent from my perspective.  To me that would be about even to slight edge for Monroe.  Beachum is an X factor due to his recovery from a knee injury, but played well for Pittsburgh.

 

C-Aging Meester in 2013 vs Bernadeau/Bowanko/??? this year.  I'd take Meester, but barely.  He was finished by the end of 2013, figuratively and literally.

 

To me there is no question the 2016 OL is better than that 2013 group.

Bullseye, I'm a little surprised regarding your take on the center position. It's pretty much common knowledge at this point that Linder will be starting at C with Cann and the loser of the Joeckel/Beachum battle at the other guard.


Joeckel

Beachum

Linder

Cann

Parnell

Quote:Bullseye, I'm a little surprised regarding your take on the center position. It's pretty much common knowledge at this point that Linder will be starting at C with Cann and the loser of the Joeckel/Beachum battle at the other guard.


Joeckel

Beachum

Linder

Cann

Parnell

I was not sold on that point, but it's becoming apparent.

 

But taking this at face value...

 

LG-2013 Rackley v. 2016 Beachum/Joeckel-Edge 2016 by default.  Can't imagine either would be worse than Rackley.

 

C-2013 Meester v. 2016 Linder-Edge Linder.  More power, younger.

 

RG-2013 Nwaneri v. 2016 Cann-Cann only gave up one sack all year-his rookie year.  Edge: 2016 Cann

O line still needs a lot of work. I'm hoping to see a lot of Chris Ivory this year; guys a beast