If Caldwell were to take a guy who is not being thrown around as a top 5 pick, who would it be?
"Reached" being the label that pick would go into camp with (by people who are not GMs).
Spence, Nkemdiche, Ragland, Alexander
Spence
I should clarify by saying I don't think Lawson would be a "reach" per say
Quote:Shaq Lawson
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0a...haq-Lawson
Philosophical questions to you and the rest of the board.
What do you consider to be a "reach?"
I ask because I've seen a few mocks from respectable sources that have Lawson as a top 10 pick. If some reputable sources have him as a top 10 pick, how much of a reach could he be at 5, considering DE is arguably our biggest need and Bosa, Jack and Ramsey could all be off the board when we pick?
Does it depend upon the talent level in a draft? Is there a first or second tier talent level in this draft? Where is the dividing line in this draft class? Where does Lawson fit among the tiers in your view?
Is there such a thing as an acceptable reach? How many slots would constitute an acceptable reach?
.
Quote:Philosophical questions to you and the rest of the board.
What do you consider to be a "reach?"
I ask because I've seen a few mocks from respectable sources that have Lawson as a top 10 pick. If some reputable sources have him as a top 10 pick, how much of a reach could he be at 5, considering DE is arguably our biggest need and Bosa, Jack and Ramsey could all be off the board when we pick?
Does it depend upon the talent level in a draft? Is there a first or second tier talent level in this draft? Where is the dividing line in this draft class? Where does Lawson fit among the tiers in your view?
Is there such a thing as an acceptable reach? How many slots would constitute an acceptable reach?
.
I was just going by the OP's "not talked about as top 5" criteria, but to me a reach is taking a guy more than ten spots earlier than you ideally would select him were your hand not being forced somehow.
That doesn't really make Lawson a reach at 5 to many, but he certainly isn't considered "top5" by the talking heads. And he'd be labeled a reach by plenty of folks for sure.
To me a reach at 5 would be someone you could have at 15 or later.
You could argue he already did that.
I'd say Spence or Lawson. Spence is more of a wild card, likely to go anywhere from 12 or even last into the second Rd.
Lawson probably will go in the 8-16 range.
Quote:Philosophical questions to you and the rest of the board.
What do you consider to be a "reach?"
I ask because I've seen a few mocks from respectable sources that have Lawson as a top 10 pick. If some reputable sources have him as a top 10 pick, how much of a reach could he be at 5, considering DE is arguably our biggest need and Bosa, Jack and Ramsey could all be off the board when we pick?
Does it depend upon the talent level in a draft? Is there a first or second tier talent level in this draft? Where is the dividing line in this draft class? Where does Lawson fit among the tiers in your view?
Is there such a thing as an acceptable reach? How many slots would constitute an acceptable reach?
.
In my opinion, a reach means you
deliberately pass over a player of greater talent to take a player of lesser talent. I would think Shaq Lawson at 5 would be a reach, but it depends on how Dave has them rated in terms of overall talent. For example, if Dave thinks Buckner is the 5th best player in the draft, but he passes over him to take Shaq Lawson, whom he has rated lower, that to me is the definition of a reach.
I could think something is a reach, but in my definition, whether it is actually a reach depends on how Dave Caldwell has the players rated. If in the example above, Caldwell actually thinks Lawson is a better player than Buckner, has more overall talent, and has a better chance of long term success in the league, then what I think is irrelevant. It's not a reach in that case.
That's my definition of a reach. A reach in my mind is where a GM deliberately passes over a guy who he thinks is a better overall player to take a guy he thinks is a lesser player. It's short term thinking. It's need trumping talent.
So, to be clear,
my definition of a reach is passing over a better player for a lesser player, and the GM knowing that he did that and doing it on purpose.
To me it's not a reach until you're taking a player a full tier level below. Let's pretend we're using a 100 point scouts inc type scale. If Dave has Buckner graded at a 92 and Lawson graded at a 90, that's not a reach to take Lawson over Buckner. IF Dave has Buckner at a 92 and Lawson at say an 85, then ok you just bite the bullet and take the lesser need in Buckner.
It also obviously doesn't apply to QBs. I am sure that Dave had, on a pure grade scale, Sammy Watkins and Khalil Mack a full tier above Bortles.
Boy, Lawson is starting to become a really intriguing idea. I love Jack and Ramsey as the pick, Bosa even, but can you imagine that lightening package with Lawson and Fowler on the field (assuming they are who we think they can be.) That would be a lot of speed on the edges with a couple of studs in the middle.
How deep is LB in this draft? Can we get some speed in the 2nd round?
Definition of reach - Alualu
Quote:How deep is LB in this draft? Can we get some speed in the 2nd round?
Yes Smith.
Quote:To me it's not a reach until you're taking a player a full tier level below
. Let's pretend we're using a 100 point scouts inc type scale. If Dave has Buckner graded at a 92 and Lawson graded at a 90, that's not a reach to take Lawson over Buckner. IF Dave has Buckner at a 92 and Lawson at say an 85, then ok you just bite the bullet and take the lesser need in Buckner.
It also obviously doesn't apply to QBs. I am sure that Dave had, on a pure grade scale, Sammy Watkins and Khalil Mack a full tier above Bortles.
This.
Reggie Williams was a reach even though he was mocked to go to the Jags, because a top-tier player was still available. Alualu was a reach. I wouldn't say any of the Jags other 1st round picks were a reach. Some were bad picks of course, but you have to judge this by how they were rated at the time. This year
the first tier appears to be Ramsey, Bosa, Tunsil, Jack, Wentz, Buckner.
The most likely reach seems be Lawson. I'm less enthralled with Lawson than most people on this board, I'd much rather the Jags take the risk with Spence, but only after trading down, not at pick 5.
Quote:You could argue he already did that.
Bortles?