Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote: I think even Seattle would benefit from running just a basic 4-3.

I'm curious as to what exactly, in your opinion, constitutes a basic 4-3 scheme?

Its not achievable.

Quote:I'm curious as to what exactly, in your opinion, constitutes a basic 4-3 scheme?

What Seattle/Atlanta/Jax all run is essentially a base 4-3 under defense

 

What I mean by a basic 4-3 is simply a base 4-3. Four down linemen all playing one gap tech. I'll admit though, that the personnel of the front seven is so all over the place that Jacksonville is pretty much locked in on what Bradley wants to do. Fowler is a prototypical LEO/3-4 OLB but Marks is a penetrative 4-3 DT.

 

Seattle, on the other hand, makes it work because Chancellor destroys just about any back that tries to cut to the outside, and Jacksonville doesn't have Chancellor. Maybe Seattle wouldn't benefit from it more than what they have, but it's quite clear that Seattle's defensive scheme is tailored to its personnel, and not vice versa unlike Jacksonville and Atlanta, who are failing miserably at replicating it.

Quote:If you actually have the players to run it, it's a solid D. The NFL will eventually figure it out, and probably has, but a good coach...lol...can account for that by making subtle changes.

 

The problem is that it's based on a college "speed" defense, which is crushed by a mauling OL and an efficient passing game.

 

It isn't much different than what Virginia Tech runs in college, and the smaller players get smashed by the better teams.

 

It's the pro version of the same philosophy.

 

Enough with the gimmicks, give me a stout front four instead.  Without a stout front four, it's difficult to have pressure when you're playing so much nickel and dime in today's NFL.  Forget Leo and Otto, and the mythical "edge" creature, give me a stud pass rushing RDE, two DTs who can anchor and pass rush, and an LDE that swallows anything that comes his way.

Quote:Enough with the gimmicks, give me a stout front four instead. Without a stout front four, it's difficult to have pressure when you're playing so much nickel and dime in today's NFL. Forget Leo and Otto, and the mythical "edge" creature, give me a stud pass rushing RDE, two DTs who can anchor and pass rush, and an LDE that swallows anything that comes his way.

My question is this. What happeneds when you can't find two stud DT's, finding one is hard enough, and a team consistently runs away from the LDE right at the pass rushing RDE? Is it wrong to expect that they will struggle just as this team has struggled?

Seattle has

1-Better linebackers( Wagner and the fantastic Wright)

2-Better Cornerback (Sherman)

3-Better Safeties

4-Better Pass rush by far

5-We are about even at tackle and strong side DE

 

Its so easy to see the difference. The scheme is fine

Quote:What Seattle/Atlanta/Jax all run is essentially a base 4-3 under defense

 

What I mean by a basic 4-3 is simply a base 4-3. Four down linemen all playing one gap tech. I'll admit though, that the personnel of the front seven is so all over the place that Jacksonville is pretty much locked in on what Bradley wants to do. Fowler is a prototypical LEO/3-4 OLB but Marks is a penetrative 4-3 DT.

 

Seattle, on the other hand, makes it work because Chancellor destroys just about any back that tries to cut to the outside, and Jacksonville doesn't have Chancellor. Maybe Seattle wouldn't benefit from it more than what they have, but it's quite clear that Seattle's defensive scheme is tailored to its personnel, and not vice versa unlike Jacksonville and Atlanta, who are failing miserably at replicating it.

Good post but Chancellor is a liability in coverage.

Quote:Good post but Chancellor is a liability in coverage.

 

I agree, but it's hardly noticeable because Seattle has a legendary back end. Pretty much every single team has trouble covering tight ends, I don't really fault Kam for that. He's a big strong safety whose primary duties are supporting the run. It's impressive that he still manages to make plays in the air.

 

Jacksonville had a legendary 2014 draft class on offense alone. They need to have another one on defense if they're going to make this work.

Quote:...
Enough with the gimmicks, give me a stout front four instead.  Without a stout front four, it's difficult to have pressure when you're playing so much nickel and dime in today's NFL.  Forget Leo and Otto, and the mythical "edge" creature, give me a stud pass rushing RDE, two DTs who can anchor and pass rush, and an LDE that swallows anything that comes his way.

 

So, basically the Fearsome Foursome then? Sure, we'll just run right out and grab those guys.

 

Look, I get your point but you're asking for not only one, but two Defensive Tackles that can anchor and pass rush?!?! How many of those players exist in the entire League? And how many truly stud RDE's are there? Clowney was supposed to be, and he knows the Training Staff better than he does his position coach. Who else is there?

 

At some point, you need your scheme to be versatile enough to be able accommodate less than Hall of Fame caliber talent. To be honest, I think the 4-3 Under can do that. Then again, I really feel like the 4-2-5 is the Defense of the future, but I'm not so certain that it will ever get on grass in the NFL.

Quote:So, basically the Fearsome Foursome then? Sure, we'll just run right out and grab those guys.

 

Look, I get your point but you're asking for not only one, but two Defensive Tackles that can anchor and pass rush?!?! How many of those players exist in the entire League? And how many truly stud RDE's are there? Clowney was supposed to be, and he knows the Training Staff better than he does his position coach. Who else is there?

 

At some point, you need your scheme to be versatile enough to be able accommodate less than Hall of Fame caliber talent. To be honest, I think the 4-3 Under can do that. Then again, I really feel like the 4-2-5 is the Defense of the future, but I'm not so certain that it will ever get on grass in the NFL.

 

If it does then RBs will become important first round picks again.

Quote:If it does then RBs will become important first round picks again.

 

And so goes the cycle. The sport needs to change and evolve. Sameness is death.

Quote:And so goes the cycle. The sport needs to change and evolve. Sameness is death.

 

That's why I don't think the Seattle craze will last, it's the Run n Shoot of defenses in that it has a serious flaw that is now known and able to be exploited. Changing to a scheme after its been around for 5 years doesn't bode well for the future, you need some new angle by that time.

Quote:Its not achievable.

 

This.

Quote:My question is this. What happeneds when you can't find two stud DT's, finding one is hard enough, and a team consistently runs away from the LDE right at the pass rushing RDE? Is it wrong to expect that they will struggle just as this team has struggled?

 

 

Quote:So, basically the Fearsome Foursome then? Sure, we'll just run right out and grab those guys.

 

Look, I get your point but you're asking for not only one, but two Defensive Tackles that can anchor and pass rush?!?! How many of those players exist in the entire League? And how many truly stud RDE's are there? Clowney was supposed to be, and he knows the Training Staff better than he does his position coach. Who else is there?

 

At some point, you need your scheme to be versatile enough to be able accommodate less than Hall of Fame caliber talent. To be honest, I think the 4-3 Under can do that. Then again, I really feel like the 4-2-5 is the Defense of the future, but I'm not so certain that it will ever get on grass in the NFL.

 

No, one anchor, and one rush DT.

 

We already have that.

 

All we're missing is the RDE.  Forget tweeners and leos.

 

Everyone says "we can't."  Refuse to accept that.  Carolina seemed to be able to.  We have in the past.

 

Much better chances going traditional four than this mythical unicorn we've been chasing and haven't even come close to.

Quote: Then again, I really feel like the 4-2-5 is the Defense of the future, but I'm not so certain that it will ever get on grass in the NFL.

 

"nickel hybrid" is something I've talked about for a long while.

 

Since most teams are in nickel most of the time anyway, and hurry ups are becoming the rage, makes sense to have a lb/S/cb who can be the nickel hybrid who can cover and/or play the run even on first down.

 

Even with a nickel or dime, still need a stout front four to provide pressure without a blitz.

Quote:No, one anchor, and one rush DT.

 

We already have that.

 

All we're missing is the RDE.  Forget tweeners and leos.

 

Everyone says "we can't."  Refuse to accept that.  Carolina seemed to be able to.  We have in the past.

 

Much better chances going traditional four than this mythical unicorn we've been chasing and haven't even come close to.

LOL.

 

A little over the top, Pirk.  It's (Leo)  just a hybrid DE setting up two steps wider.  It's nothing that dramatically different from a traditional 4 man front.  They just haven't had a competent starter at the position since they employed it. 

Quote:LOL.

 

A little over the top, Pirk.  It's (Leo)  just a hybrid DE setting up two steps wider.  It's nothing that dramatically different from a traditional 4 man front.  They just haven't had a competent starter at the position since they employed it. 

 

Not saying it's "dramatically" different, just that every day that passes suggest we're going farther down a rabbit hole searching to force fit a particular role.  It's splitting the difference between the role of a rush ROLB in a 3-4, and a traditional RDE... and getting the benefit of neither in our implementation of it without the right personnel "fit."

 

Don't you think it's possible that finding this "leo" fit might actually be harder than finding a traditional RDE?  Because if we were to somehow go back to a traditional four man front, we've already got 3 of 4.  Maybe even all 4, but we don't know because we don't play it.  We've got every RDE trying to be "leo."

Quote: 

 

Don't you think it's possible that finding this "leo" fit might actually be harder than finding a traditional RDE? 

Your points are valid of course  - I just think we haven't had a RDE worth his salt (or in his prime) since Bradley came on board and I think a better one would adapt to the variation in role just fine.  Even if he's more of a "traditional" RDE playing LEO. 

 

With a new coordinator coming in - maybe less emphasis will be given to the slight difference in the two - and more emphasis given to just having a guy that can pressure quarterbacks from the right side of the line.  Fingers crossed - though I still feel like it's been more of a "talent" issue than a "scheme fit" issue thus far. 

The major benefit of this defense has been rendered obsolete now that there are three teams using it. When Seattle first started using it, they were able to acquire the foundation of their defense using cheap free agency and the late rounds of the draft, because they were players that weren't great fits in traditional defenses. 

 

They were able to sign Browner off the street and pick up Sherman as a 5th rounder because tall slowish corners weren't thought to be agile enough for traditional defenses.

 

Red Bryant, Alan Branch, and Chris Clemons were all journeyman "meh" players signed for cheap because they weren't great fits in a 4-3 or 3-4.

 

Kam Chancellor was a 4th or 5th round pick because cover 2 teams didn't want him because he was too big and slow.

 

This approached allowed them to use their higher draft picks on players that other teams would compete with them for, such as Earl Thomas, Russell Okung, and Bobby Wagner.

 

 

Now that these types of players have been proven useful, and two other teams are competing for these types of players, this defense doesn't have the same benefits.

Quote:And so goes the cycle. The sport needs to change and evolve. Sameness is death.

 

This. Instead of trying to copy Seattle or any other team for that matter, it would be better to be bold and create something new with new ideas.