Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Did they not run extremely slow?

Roberson ran a 4.6 and Purifoy didn't run. They both had terrible junior seasons and major off the field issues.

Eric Murray.

Quote:If Dante Fowler was a huge reach at #3, Dave Caldwell would have picked someone else. He was expected to be our pick there.

I expected him to be our pick too; it doesn't mean he wasnt't a reach. I wanted us to pick Cooper, a much better prospect. It was clear from our offseason signings that pass rusher was going to be the pick.


Fowler was one of those prospects that was up on some draft boards, yet down on others. A few sites, SB Nation for example, had him as the biggest Boom or Bust prospect in the draft. For those who had him high, it was because of his fast 40-time and versatility.


For me though, I would never draft a pass rusher in the top 10 who was an average pass rusher in college. He was very unproductive as a pass rusher in college. He consistently failed to set the edge and rarely got to the QB. Heck, his career sack and qb hurry numbers were worse than other prospects single season numbers. Plus, besides his 40 time, he had a poor showing at the combine. Till he does anything significant as a pass rusher, the position is still on the draft board for me.

Hargreaves will run a low 4.4 or high 4.3 at the combine he's already done this before go look it up. Once again he was a 5-star recruit for a reason.

There aren't many top-quality 6ft plus CBs out there. I think that if you find a really good one who is one inch short of six foot you take him.

I think Hargreaves will come in short but at this point I dont care.  We just need a tough as nails guy to make plays.  Our defense isnt going to become good overnight due to Hargreaves.  we need a pass rush.  But if he can make one or two big plays we arent getting right now, he'll be worth it.

Quote:I expected him to be our pick too; it doesn't mean he wasnt't a reach. I wanted us to pick Cooper, a much better prospect. It was clear from our offseason signings that pass rusher was going to be the pick.


Fowler was one of those prospects that was up on some draft boards, yet down on others. A few sites, SB Nation for example, had him as the biggest Boom or Bust prospect in the draft. For those who had him high, it was because of his fast 40-time and versatility.


For me though, I would never draft a pass rusher in the top 10 who was an average pass rusher in college. He was very unproductive as a pass rusher in college. He consistently failed to set the edge and rarely got to the QB. Heck, his career sack and qb hurry numbers were worse than other prospects single season numbers. Plus, besides his 40 time, he had a poor showing at the combine. Till he does anything significant as a pass rusher, the position is still on the draft board for me.

 

Eh, he could be the Mike Mamula of this generation.

Quote:I expected him to be our pick too; it doesn't mean he wasnt't a reach. I wanted us to pick Cooper, a much better prospect. It was clear from our offseason signings that pass rusher was going to be the pick.


Fowler was one of those prospects that was up on some draft boards, yet down on others. A few sites, SB Nation for example, had him as the biggest Boom or Bust prospect in the draft. For those who had him high, it was because of his fast 40-time and versatility.

 

For me though, I would never draft a pass rusher in the top 10 who was an average pass rusher in college. He was very unproductive as a pass rusher in college. He consistently failed to set the edge and rarely got to the QB. Heck, his career sack and QBA hurry numbers were worse than other prospects single season numbers. Plus, besides his 40 time, he had a poor showing at the combine. Till he does anything significant as a pass rusher, the position is still on the draft board for me.

 

Only a Gator hater would spew that crap about him.

This reminds me a lot of the Justin Blackmon discussion on here before he was drafted. People made a big deal about his average size. Nowadays, average size has become a red flag to people. 5'11" and 180 lbs is perfectly acceptable size, especially considering he plays more physical than his size would indicate. The league is filled with elite corners of similar size.


Vh3 plays a premium position and all indications are that he is a premium player and at a position of need. We would be foolish to pass on him if he is available. Shutdown corners are probably the rarest players outside of elite quarterbacks. Look at Marv Lewis' philosophy, which he has gone on record as saying, that the secondary needs to be filled with elite, first round players as a priority over everything else on defense.

Quote:Only a Gator hater would spew that crap about him.

Outside of him not setting an edge, its all true. He definitely did set a physical edge, however.

Quote:Outside of him not setting an edge, its all true. He definitely did set a physical edge, however.

 

How many times have you watched him play?

Quote:This reminds me a lot of the Justin Blackmon discussion on here before he was drafted. People made a big deal about his average size. Nowadays, average size has become a red flag to people. 5'11" and 180 lbs is perfectly acceptable size, especially considering he plays more physical than his size would indicate. The league is filled with elite corners of similar size.


Vh3 plays a premium position and all indications are that he is a premium player and at a position of need. We would be foolish to pass on him if he is available. Shutdown corners are probably the rarest players outside of elite quarterbacks. Look at Marv Lewis' philosophy, which he has gone on record as saying, that the secondary needs to be filled with elite, first round players as a priority over everything else on defense.

 

 

Eh, Lewis developed his secondary *after* getting a good pass rush.

Draft Hargreaves or Ramsey in the first. I actually fear Hargreaves might be too small to play against big targets like Julio, and that will be the main question mark for every GM. Can the kid actually hold his ground and play like he did in college?

 

Aside from that, anyone else want Marcus Maye or Keanu Neal? That Florida secondary was one of the best in the country, and I think we should draft one of those guys if they're available in the 3rd/4th. Could be a very good value pick like Telvin was, and he's playing like a pro bowler. We can get our proven pass rushers from FA and we won't have to worry about them being busts. Drafting secondary has little risk if you have a good pass rush, it'll make them way better no matter what.

 

Marcus Maye highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsT9eVM8BM

 

Keanu Neal highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISb5LhGRyKg

Quote:How many times have you watched him play?

 

Probably more than you.

Quote:Eh, Lewis developed his secondary *after* getting a good pass rush.

 

Go back and look at his past secondaries.  He has always filled it with 1st rounders.  This season he has 5 former 1st rounders in his secondary.

 

Who are the last 1st rounders to play in the Jaguars secondary?  Aaron Ross for a vacation season.  Before him the last ones were Reggie Nelson and Donovin Darius.  We're overdue for a talent infusion in the secondary.

Quote:Only a Gator hater would spew that crap about him.

I swear I didn't mean for this to be so long; I just can't sleep. Haha


I assume I made three major points you disagree with: 1) Fowler was an average pass rusher with average numbers, 2) Fowler had a bad combine outside the 40, and 3) Fowler continuously failed to set the edge and get to the QB.


1. In 3 years at Florida, Fowler racked up 14.5 sacks and 33 tackles for a loss. More than a third of his sacks came in two games; he got 3 sacks against East Carolina in his final bowl game and 2 sacks against Kentucky a year before. Fowler had some highly favorable matchups against lower tier teams; ex. Toledo, South Carolina, Georgia Southern, Eastern Michigan, Eastern Kentucky, Bowling Green, Louisiana Lafayette, etc.; in which he combined for a total of ZERO sacks and 3 tackles for a loss.


Shane Ray, in his final season at Missouri alone, accounted for 14.5 sacks and 22.5 tackles for a loss. In 2013, Beasley accounted for 13 sacks and 22.5 tackles for a loss. In 2013, Gregory accounted for 9.5 sacks and 17 tackles for a loss. Bud Dupree, in his final season at Kentucky, accounted for 9.5 sacks and 15 tackles for a loss.


2. Fowler ran a quick 4.60 in the 40-yard dash. He was not as quick as Beasley's 4.53, but was faster than Gregory, Dupree, etc. Fowler's bench press of 19 was one of the worst of all defensive line prospects. In comparison, Beasley had 35, Gregory 24, and Ray 21. In the shuttle, Fowler once again was in the lower half of defensive line prospects. Lastly, Fowler's cone drill was in the lower half of all defense line prospects.


All one has to do is pull up the combine results and sort via the drill (bench press, shuttle, cone, etc) and see that Fowler's name is in the lower half, if not the bottom 3 or 4, of most of the drills. A quicker way to analyze these numbers is to use SPARQs advanced analytical rankings. SPARQ crunched the prospects numbers and came up with their overall athleticism and compared them to current NFL players. The rSPARQ takes into account height, weight, 40 time, vertical & broad jump, short shuttle, 3-cone drill, and bench press to come up with a single picture of a prospect's athleticism. The pSPARQ score is pretty self explanatory. "NFL Perc" score relates to how they stack up against the average athlete in the NFL. An "NFL Perc" score of 50 means the player is an "average" athlete by NFL standards.


Fowler is ranked a low 17 out of the 20 edge rushers analyzed. His NFL percentage was only 47.1%, compared to Beasley at 99.2%, Dupree 97.7%, Gregory 88.3%, etc. Fowler may be fast and athletic, but he in no way compares to the athleticism displayed by his fellow, former prospects or current NFL pass rushers.


3. Fowler is quick and very versatile. I've seen him play 4 or 5 positions in one game alone. However, that versatility can also hurt him. I've never heard someone say, "Wow, Fowler is a good pass rusher." He may be good at a lot of things, but you can't point to me one thing he is "great" at. Almost all the times he got to the QB was when he misdirected inside, usually against far inferior right tackles. Very, very rarely on tape did I see him actually set the edge and get around the corner. He is limited by his lack of counters and inability to use his hands properly. An advantage of Fowler, however, is his age. He is only 21. These things can be taught at the next level. Although he may have the lowest floor of the other pass rushers, it is probably safe to say he has the highest ceiling.

Quote:3. Fowler is quick and very versatile. I've seen him play 4 or 5 positions in one game alone. However, that versatility can also hurt him. I've never heard someone say, "Wow, Fowler is a good pass rusher." He may be good at a lot of things, but you can't point to me one thing he is "great" at. Almost all the times he got to the QB was when he misdirected inside, usually against far inferior right tackles. Very, very rarely on tape did I see him actually set the edge and get around the corner. He is limited by his lack of counters and inability to use his hands properly. An advantage of Fowler, however, is his age. He is only 21. These things can be taught at the next level. Although he may have the lowest floor of the other pass rushers, it is probably safe to say he has the highest ceiling.

 

I agree with everything except I don't know what you aren't seeing to say that you very, very rarely saw him set an edge.  That is the one thing he actually excels at doing.  He stretched runs to the sideline on a regular basis.  Bouncing runs was very difficult against Fowler.

 

I don't think he's an elite, or even high level pass rusher.  Like you said, most of his rush was scheme generated by moving him around.  He does offer lots of versatility to rush inside, outside, set a physical edge, and occasionally zone drop.  This is a guy you want to bring as a free man or single up on a running back or tight end on a blitz, not lineup over top of a tackle and expect QB pressures.

Quote:Go back and look at his past secondaries.  He has always filled it with 1st rounders.  This season he has 5 former 1st rounders in his secondary.

 

Who are the last 1st rounders to play in the Jaguars secondary?  Aaron Ross for a vacation season.  Before him the last ones were Reggie Nelson and Donovin Darius.  We're overdue for a talent infusion in the secondary.

 

And he still had a good-to-really good pass rush before drafting first-rounders or signing/trading for first-round reclamation projects.

I like Ramsey more. I would prefer a pass rusher or linebacker but he may be BAP

Quote:I agree with everything except I don't know what you aren't seeing to say that you very, very rarely saw him set an edge.  That is the one thing he actually excels at doing.  He stretched runs to the sideline on a regular basis.  Bouncing runs was very difficult against Fowler.

 

I don't think he's an elite, or even high level pass rusher.  Like you said, most of his rush was scheme generated by moving him around.  He does offer lots of versatility to rush inside, outside, set a physical edge, and occasionally zone drop.  This is a guy you want to bring as a free man or single up on a running back or tight end on a blitz, not lineup over top of a tackle and expect QB pressures.

 

He's Otto not Leo.