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Turkey being a member of NATO, if Russia declares war we would have to declare war on Russia as part of the NATO treaty.

 

Crazy times.

That's not good

This is getting worrying now.

They were warned 10 times in 5 minutes. Russia has a track record of thinking the rules don't apply to them. I don't blame Turkey one bit. I agree it's not good, but Russia is about as rogue a nation as there is. They shouldn't be surprised.

Russian President is PO'd.  Said, "stab in the back" and "significant consequences".  Time for WW3.

With Thanksgiving in two days can you really blame the turkey?

Quote:With Thanksgiving in two days can you really blame the turkey?

 

Winner.

Quote:Turkey being a member of NATO, if Russia declares war we would have to declare war on Russia as part of the NATO treaty.

 

Crazy times.

I hope we (and the rest of NATO) would summarily vote to kick Turkey out rather than starting a war with Russia.

Quote:I hope we (and the rest of NATO) would summarily vote to kick Turkey out rather than starting a war with Russia.

 

that's what needs to happen, on the flip side imagine if Iran had shot down our Jet flying a mission in Iraq. 

Quote:I hope we (and the rest of NATO) would summarily vote to kick Turkey out rather than starting a war with Russia.

If they violated US air space and were told 10 times to leave and we didn't shoot the plane down, our president would be called a coward. Russia has no regard for borders and Putin is a big swinging phallus. Well.. he just learned something.

Only savages shoot at paragliding pilots.

From what I've seen so far, Turkey tracked an armed Russian military aircraft invading their airspace.  They intercepted and warned the Russian aircraft to leave several times.  When it did not, they put a stop to it.

 

I would expect the same from our military if a foreign military aircraft entered our airspace without permission.

 

Putin can get mad all he wants.  He needs to control his military and stop thinking that he can do whatever he wants in the region.

This is how wars start.  But the U.S. has been fighting a proxy war in Syria for years.  Putin's arrival upset the game and destroyed all the myths we'd been peddling.  So now we're in a proxy war with Russia.  We will attack Russia in Syria using Turkey, ISIS, NATO, or those "moderate rebels" nobody has ever seen.

Quote:This is how wars start.  But the U.S. has been fighting a proxy war in Syria for years.  Putin's arrival upset the game and destroyed all the myths we'd been peddling.  So now we're in a proxy war with Russia.  We will attack Russia in Syria using Turkey, ISIS, NATO, or those "moderate rebels" nobody has ever seen.

 

Actually, we have been fighting a proxy war in the region with Russia (and the former USSR) for 30+ years.  It's part of how groups such as ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, etc. have formed and gained power.

If you look at a map (go ahead and go to maps.google.com and look at a map of Turkey and the surrounding area) one can surmise that this incident is about a lot more than just a Russian plane going through Turkish airspace.   In 2008, there was a Russian incursion into Georgia, which, if you look at the map, is right on the Turkish border.   Then, last year, Russia invaded and annexed the Caucasus, which, if you look at the map, is right across the Black Sea from Turkey.   Then, this year, Russia enters the conflict in Syria and bombs ethnic Turks which Turkey is allied to in the Syrian conflict.  

 

So now, a Russian bomber is in Turkish airspace for just a few minutes and the plane is just one mile within Turkish airspace, and the Turks shoot it down.  

 

This tells me this is about a lot more than just a violation of Turkish airspace.   The Turks are majorly PO'ed about a whole of stuff with the Russians and it is possible they just decided it was time to do something.  

Quote:If you look at a map (go ahead and go to maps.google.com and look at a map of Turkey and the surrounding area) one can surmise that this incident is about a lot more than just a Russian plane going through Turkish airspace.   In 2008, there was a Russian incursion into Georgia, which, if you look at the map, is right on the Turkish border.   Then, last year, Russia invaded and annexed the Caucasus, which, if you look at the map, is right across the Black Sea from Turkey.   Then, this year, Russia enters the conflict in Syria and bombs ethnic Turks which Turkey is allied to in the Syrian conflict.  

 

So now, a Russian bomber is in Turkish airspace for just a few minutes and the plane is just one mile within Turkish airspace, and the Turks shoot it down.  

 

This tells me this is about a lot more than just a violation of Turkish airspace.   The Turks are majorly PO'ed about a whole of stuff with the Russians and it is possible they just decided it was time to do something.  

Turkey's beef with Russia goes all the way back to the 1800's-during the days of the Ottoman and Russian Empires; along with Russia's long ambition for a warm water port, and the conflict between Orthodox Christians and Muslims in the Near East. This is a dispute that has absolutely nothing to do with NATO or America, and we should stay out of this.

Quote:Turkey's beef with Russia goes all the way back to the 1800's-during the days of the Ottoman and Russian Empires; along with Russia's long ambition for a warm water port, and the conflict between Orthodox Christians and Muslims in the Near East. This is a dispute that has absolutely nothing to do with NATO or America, and we should stay out of this.

 

I don't see how we can stay out of it.   We have obligations under the NATO treaty.   Why would anyone sign a treaty with us if we pick and choose when and how we are going to abide by the treaties we sign?   Now, we can try to twist some arms behind the scenes, but if Russia attacks Turkey, we are in it up to our necks.  

Quote:I don't see how we can stay out of it.   We have obligations under the NATO treaty.   Why would anyone sign a treaty with us if we pick and choose when and how we are going to abide by the treaties we sign?   Now, we can try to twist some arms behind the scenes, but if Russia attacks Turkey, we are in it up to our necks.  

And that my friend, is why George Washington did not believe in military alliances like NATO.

Quote:I don't see how we can stay out of it.   We have obligations under the NATO treaty.   

I think we had obligations to help Ukraine too so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Quote:I think we had obligations to help Ukraine too so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Did we? I am not aware of any treaty obligations between the US and the Ukraine.