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Quote:What's really interesting is because we all have biases and preconceived notions, how we hear other people talk about things we don't agree with and we think they are dumb.

Curious, what did you hear her say?

Quote:You know the words I'm sure.  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

The "right" to a higher education does not exist.  The "right" to anything is not granted by government.

So tell me where the right to own guns comes from.

The concept of a right to education involves the services of another person. The rights described in the declaration and expounded on in the bill of rights are freedoms enjoyed by all human beings as they interact with the world.

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The "right" to a higher education does not exist.  The "right" to anything is not granted by government.

Sure it is.  It's not granted by anything else, and if you think it is you're kidding yourself.  Rights are granted by government.  Otherwise conservatives wouldn't be worried about Government taking their rights away.


Otherwise we wouldn't have Gitmo.  You can't argue that everyone has these rights, and then not give them to terrorists or terrorist suspects because they're not American.  Or even because they're enemy combatants.

Quote:The concept of a right to education involves the services of another person. The rights described in the declaration and expounded on in the bill of rights are freedoms enjoyed by all human beings as they interact with the world.

According to the FBI, 8,855 people in the US were murdered using a firearm in 2012. I'll hop in my DeLorean and tell them as they're staring down the barrel of a gun that their murderer is just enjoying their freedom to interact with the world.

 

I'm a strong supporter of the Second Amendment, but I have no idea how you can argue that a right to education is invalid because it involves inconveniencing another person and the right to guns, which involves, you know, shooting other people is somehow just people enjoying their freedom and interacting with the world.

I would go so far as to say that I would prefer if higher education was something considered a right in our society. Making absolutely certain that the next generation is better educated than the last should be something we all aspire towards. Give incentives for kids to go towards STEM degrees and not so much the Colonial Basket Weaving degrees. 

Quote:I would go so far as to say that I would prefer if higher education was something considered a right in our society. Making absolutely certain that the next generation is better educated than the last should be something we all aspire towards. Give incentives for kids to go towards STEM degrees and not so much the Colonial Basket Weaving degrees. 

I would too, to an extent. I think everyone should have the right to two years of post-secondary education. Whether they spend those two years at welding school, automotive school, learning to be a vet tech, at the Art Institute, whatever, that's on them. If they choose to use those two years towards a degree that takes four (or more), I applaud their efforts, but I don't think a full, four-year degree should ever be a "right". You're already seeing people with bachelor's degrees flipping burgers or driving Uber rides because of market saturation. If you make a post-secondary degree free for everyone, you've eliminated the point of getting one. 

Quote:It has nothing to do with bias or preconceived notions on my part. Watching and listening to this college student as well as others formed my opinion.


Here is something to ponder. What do groups such as this "million student march" or "occupy Wallstreet" have in common? The answer is that they all "demand, demand, demand" or more specifically "want, want, want".


In our society, if you want a higher education then you work for it and make it happen. If you want to earn a higher salary then you work to make that happen. Nothing is given in the real world, it must be earned.


You know the words I'm sure. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


The "right" to a higher education does not exist. The "right" to anything is not granted by government.

I meant it in general way that I could have worded better. It's an observation of the human condition everyone is guilty of.

Cover the first two no matter the degree and cover four if they are going into medicine, science, engineering, etc?

Quote:Cover the first two no matter the degree and cover four if they are going into medicine, science, engineering, etc?

I think you can extend this to trade schools as well. The trades are just as valuable as the ones you mentioned.


I'd like to add this. An populace with access to education is good for the country as a whole. Making education accessible and affordable should be a top priority for the country from a moral and economic standpoint. Fighting against this ideal seems so very unamerican to me.

Quote:Curious, what did you hear her say?

I didn't hear her say anything because I didn't watch it.

The right to keep and bear arms does not trump the right of life. The means by which the rights of one person interact with others are governed by LAWS. murder is against the law.


That should be pretty common knowledge.


A person has the right to equal treatment in the application process but not to mandate acceptance or the cost of higher education.

Quote:Sure it is.  It's not granted by anything else, and if you think it is you're kidding yourself.  Rights are granted by government.  Otherwise conservatives wouldn't be worried about Government taking their rights away.


Otherwise we wouldn't have Gitmo.  You can't argue that everyone has these rights, and then not give them to terrorists or terrorist suspects because they're not American.  Or even because they're enemy combatants.

 

This isn't just wrong, this is a thought process that has become far too pervasive in modern liberalism.  The foundations of our democratic republic are codified in the declaration of independence and our legal system is predicated on the idea of pre-existing inalienable rights.  

 

The fundamental purpose of government is to RECOGNIZE and PROTECT the rights of the people from those both domestic and abroad who would infringe on the rights of its citizens.  

 

The process by which a citizens rights are protected against infringement by another citizen or domestic legal entity is through the criminal justice system.  The process by which the government protects its citizens rights against enemy combatants is through the military and the military legal system.  There are inherently certain privileges extended to citizens that wouldn't be extended to foreigners and certainly not foreign combatants. 

If there are certain inalienable rights (unable to be taken away) then blacks and women would have had rights from the get go.   The government had to grant them their rights, and the government couldn't grant them the rights if rights did not come from government.

the government did not grant them rights.  The government intervention was to recognize and protect their inalienable rights.  That's why the endowment clause of the declaration of independence was quoted when we passed the 13th amendment 14th amendment 15th amendment and 19th amendment.

 

Yes, slavery was unamerican the moment that Jefferson put pen to paper as the foundations of our democracy.  Yes, Jim crowe was blatantly wrong given not only the declaration of independence but the slave amendments.  Yes, women should have had the right to vote from the founding of the country.  

 

Governments cannot and do not GRANT rights.  Governments recognize them and can even infringe on them, but they do not GRANT rights.  

Uhh yeah, the government grants rights.  Our founding fathers got together and determined what rights they thought should be inalienable (and to whom).  And different people have different ideas about what our inalienable rights should be.  What the founding fathers came up with is what they themselves came up with.  It's not as if it were some magic list that's been around for centuries that stated which rights were inalienable and which weren't.  

Quote:Governments cannot and do not GRANT rights.  Governments recognize them and can even infringe on them, but they do not GRANT rights.  

By living in a country, you assent to live by the rights that government grants/recognizes.

Quote:Uhh yeah, the government grants rights.  Our founding fathers got together and determined what rights they thought should be inalienable (and to whom).  And different people have different ideas about what our inalienable rights should be.  What the founding fathers came up with is what they themselves came up with.  It's not as if it were some magic list that's been around for centuries that stated which rights were inalienable and which weren't.  

 

What do they teach you kids in schools these days?

Nothing about the american form of government.

Quote:So tell me where the right to own guns comes from.

The 2nd amendment. Really?