Quote:You give an NFL qb all day in the pocket like we do and VHG, Revis, Sherman and Cam Chancellor would give up yards. I do watch other teams. Each team with a shutdown corner has one thing in common...any guess to what that is? Consistent pressure.
You leave receivers running open and the pass rushers will never get home. Works both ways. Pick the best one. In this case, VH3 is an elite shutdown corner with great run support skills. Take him.
Quote:I think a lot of perceptions would change with Hargreaves if he played some better competition. Let's me honest, the SEC is not a hot spot for great qb and wr play right now.
I look at a team like Vandy who UF plays today. In their last 4 games, they have had 54 drives. In those 54 drives they have had 4 touchdowns; only 1 passing. Look at Missouri. Last 4 games: 54 drives, 1 touchdown, none passing. Look at Georgia. Last 4 games: 58 drives, 3 touchdowns, 2 passing.
A lot of corners are gonna matchup fairly well against qb and wr play in the East. Just my opinion.
Well, in the last 3 years the SEC has had Amari Cooper, Odell Beckham Jr., Jarvis Landry, Mike Evans, Dorial Green-Beckam, Laquon Treadwell, and others. The SEC certainly isn't devoid of talent on offense if that's what you are trying to insinuate.
I don't consider Beckham a great college talent so I'll throw him out up front. He played in 40 games but only scored in 8. Great NFL rookie season, but was never a top 20 WR by any measure in college. When Landry last played in college and faced UF Hargreaves was a backup to Purifoy and Roberson and didn't see much playing time (he did nothing of notice either way). So I will throw him out. Last time I looked, Mike Evans never played the Gators with Hargreaves. When Evans faced Florida, Hargreaves was still in high school. I will throw him out. Green-Beckham also played the Gators while Hargreaves was a backup and didn't see much playing time. I'll throw him out
We see a trend? He actually never matched up with these guys.
Cooper did play a Gators team with Hargreaves starting and put up 10 receptions for 200+ yards and 3tds. Yes, yes, I know Hargreaves plays one side of the field and doesn't always play the #1 wideout. However, a chunk of those yards were against him. He DID however hold Treadwell In check quite well.
One thing is consistent though: terrible QB play. Plus, none are really great passing teams. LSU 121st out of 128 in passing. SC 103, Missouri 101, vandy 93, ga 92, Tennessee 87, and so on and so on. Probably the best passing team UF has played was East Carolina. Their QB put up 333 yards, 3 TD's, and their top WR put up 135 yards and a td.
Quote:I don't consider Beckham a great college talent so I'll throw him out up front. He played in 40 games but only scored in 8. Great NFL rookie season, but was never a top 20 WR by any measure in college. When Landry last played in college and faced UF Hargreaves was a backup to Purifoy and Roberson and didn't see much playing time (he did nothing of notice either way). So I will throw him out. Last time I looked, Mike Evans never played the Gators with Hargreaves. When Evans faced Florida, Hargreaves was still in high school. I will throw him out. Green-Beckham also played the Gators while Hargreaves was a backup and didn't see much playing time. I'll throw him out
We see a trend? He actually never matched up with these guys.
Cooper did play a Gators team with Hargreaves starting and put up 10 receptions for 200+ yards and 3tds. Yes, yes, I know Hargreaves plays one side of the field and doesn't always play the #1 wideout. However, a chunk of those yards were against him. He DID however hold Treadwell In check quite well.
One thing is consistent though: terrible QB play. Plus, none are really great passing teams. LSU 121st out of 128 in passing. SC 103, Missouri 101, vandy 93, ga 92, Tennessee 87, and so on and so on. Probably the best passing team UF has played was East Carolina. Their QB put up 333 yards, 3 TD's, and their top WR put up 135 yards and a td.
Not the SEC as a whole. The SEC East is more accurate. In the West you have/had dak Prescott, Manziel, Bo Wallace (who broke many of Eli Manning's records) Mettenberger (Good college QB) Chad Kelly and Brandon Allen. The East is a dark spot when it comes to offensive play lately.
Quote:You leave receivers running open and the pass rushers will never get home. Works both ways. Pick the best one. In this case, VH3 is an elite shutdown corner with great run support skills. Take him.
Very true..but in today's NFL Pass friendly play what is easier to do, rush the passer or lock down the 4-5 receivers on the field. My point was that we are not in a position to use VHG3 to his full potential. Drafting him will be like the Texans drafting Clowney to play OLB in a 3-4 D.
Quote:I don't consider Beckham a great college talent so I'll throw him out up front. He played in 40 games but only scored in 8. Great NFL rookie season, but was never a top 20 WR by any measure in college. When Landry last played in college and faced UF Hargreaves was a backup to Purifoy and Roberson and didn't see much playing time (he did nothing of notice either way). So I will throw him out. Last time I looked, Mike Evans never played the Gators with Hargreaves. When Evans faced Florida, Hargreaves was still in high school. I will throw him out. Green-Beckham also played the Gators while Hargreaves was a backup and didn't see much playing time. I'll throw him out
We see a trend? He actually never matched up with these guys.
Cooper did play a Gators team with Hargreaves starting and put up 10 receptions for 200+ yards and 3tds. Yes, yes, I know Hargreaves plays one side of the field and doesn't always play the #1 wideout. However, a chunk of those yards were against him. He DID however hold Treadwell In check quite well.
One thing is consistent though: terrible QB play. Plus, none are really great passing teams. LSU 121st out of 128 in passing. SC 103, Missouri 101, vandy 93, ga 92, Tennessee 87, and so on and so on. Probably the best passing team UF has played was East Carolina. Their QB put up 333 yards, 3 TD's, and their top WR put up 135 yards and a td.
I don't think you are giving Hargreaves enough credit. He has been starting and getting considerable playing time since his freshmen year and has locked down every single guy he has played against with the exception of Cooper. If you look at the Alabama game, Cooper had like 5 catches for 65 yards and a TD when lined up against Vernon. Outside of that one game Vernon has done his job. I also won't hold the competition he has faced against him either. Look at Revis... What studs did he cover when he came out of Pittsburg.
Just watching the games, Vernon's cover skills are off the charts and he is a playmaker, which the Jags secondary desperately needs. Bosa is the only edge rusher I would take over VH3 at the moment. I can't see myself passing over a talent like him to take a lesser talented guy. We need studs on our defense, and Vernon is a stud.
Quote:Very true..but in today's NFL Pass friendly play what is easier to do, rush the passer or lock down the 4-5 receivers on the field. My point was that we are not in a position to use VHG3 to his full potential. Drafting him will be like the Texans drafting Clowney to play OLB in a 3-4 D.
Not arguing. My point is that you need both. If you feel VH3 is a better corner than Bosa is a pass rusher, you go with VH3.
Quote:Very true..but in today's NFL Pass friendly play what is easier to do, rush the passer or lock down the 4-5 receivers on the field. My point was that we are not in a position to use VHG3 to his full potential. Drafting him will be like the Texans drafting Clowney to play OLB in a 3-4 D.
You can't compare those two guys. Clowney was drafted to rush the passer from the wrong position. No other player has anything to do with the stupid decision to draft him. Hargreaves will always be a cornerback no matter where he plays.
Quote:I don't consider Beckham a great college talent so I'll throw him out up front. He played in 40 games but only scored in 8. Great NFL rookie season, but was never a top 20 WR by any measure in college. When Landry last played in college and faced UF Hargreaves was a backup to Purifoy and Roberson and didn't see much playing time (he did nothing of notice either way). So I will throw him out. Last time I looked, Mike Evans never played the Gators with Hargreaves. When Evans faced Florida, Hargreaves was still in high school. I will throw him out. Green-Beckham also played the Gators while Hargreaves was a backup and didn't see much playing time. I'll throw him out
We see a trend? He actually never matched up with these guys.
Cooper did play a Gators team with Hargreaves starting and put up 10 receptions for 200+ yards and 3tds. Yes, yes, I know Hargreaves plays one side of the field and doesn't always play the #1 wideout. However, a chunk of those yards were against him. He DID however hold Treadwell In check quite well.
One thing is consistent though: terrible QB play. Plus, none are really great passing teams. LSU 121st out of 128 in passing. SC 103, Missouri 101, vandy 93, ga 92, Tennessee 87, and so on and so on. Probably the best passing team UF has played was East Carolina. Their QB put up 333 yards, 3 TD's, and their top WR put up 135 yards and a td.
I didn't say that VH3 has played all of those receivers. Those are good receivers that have played in the SEC for the last 3 years.
That you would say ODB doesn't count is absurd and shows how slanted your argument really is. He put up 1200 yards and 8 touchdowns his last season there. He didn't somehow just get good in the NFL his rookie season.
VH3 wasn't a backup against LSU or Missouri his freshman year. He was a backup for the first 2 games of the season (he was the nickel, not even really a backup) and he had a pick in each of those games and 3 out of his first 4 games. He was the starter for LSU and Missouri.
And the Amari Cooper thing has been discussed ad naseum already on this board - you should look it up. Cooper's production came away from Hargreaves that game. Cooper had like 5 catches for 60 yards against VH3 and even those were crossing routes in between zones. He did catch one red zone touchdown over Hargreaves.
The reason the SEC offenses don't put up huge numbers in general is because teams play defense with NFL starters on their teams, like Hargreaves. Average offenses look terrible and good offenses look just ok. There is a reason why a team like Ole Miss who is the #9 offense in the country puts up 30 against the SEC and 56 against the rest of the country... And that's taking into account the 53 point debacle they had last night against Arkansas... That is unless you want to make the argument that SEC defenses aren't any good either.
Basically, you and a few others are just looking for a reason not to like the guy and nit pick him. You are making an argument about VH3 not playing good competition, when the competition he has faced has been better or at worst equal to any other corner in the country. Name another elite corner who has played better competition.
Quote:I didn't say that VH3 has played all of those receivers. Those are good receivers that have played in the SEC for the last 3 years.
That you would say ODB doesn't count is absurd and shows how slanted your argument really is. He put up 1200 yards and 8 touchdowns his last season there. He didn't somehow just get good in the NFL his rookie season.
VH3 wasn't a backup against LSU or Missouri his freshman year. He was a backup for the first 2 games of the season (he was the nickel, not even really a backup) and he had a pick in each of those games and 3 out of his first 4 games. He was the starter for LSU and Missouri.
And the Amari Cooper thing has been discussed ad naseum already on this board - you should look it up. Cooper's production came away from Hargreaves that game. Cooper had like 5 catches for 60 yards against VH3 and even those were crossing routes in between zones. He did catch one red zone touchdown over Hargreaves.
The reason the SEC offenses don't put up huge numbers in general is because teams play defense with NFL starters on their teams, like Hargreaves. Average offenses look terrible and good offenses look just ok. There is a reason why a team like Ole Miss who is the #9 offense in the country puts up 30 against the SEC and 56 against the rest of the country... And that's taking into account the 53 point debacle they had last night against Arkansas... That is unless you want to make the argument that SEC defenses aren't any good either.
Basically, you and a few others are just looking for a reason not to like the guy and nit pick him. You are making an argument about VH3 not playing good competition, when the competition he has faced has been better or at worst equal to any other corner in the country. Name another elite corner who has played better competition.
To me, vh3 and Ramsey are the top two defensive talents in the draft, ahead of bosa and nkemdiche.
People nitpick everyone. They are 1a and 1b for me.
Ramsey seems like he would make the bigger impact for the jaguars specifically.
If the jaguars wind up with either guy I'll be really happy, but the pass rush will still need some additions in free agency or rds 2&3.
BAP.
Hargreaves III is an elite corner and you don't pass him up if we are picking between #3 and #10.
He is the real deal.
Teams are going to want his combine numbers before deciding if he is a true All-pro caliber CB
Ramsey>VH3 because of need
Quote:BAP.
Hargreaves III is an elite corner and you don't pass him up if we are picking between #3 and #10.
He is the real deal.
It depends what you think of a guy like Jaylon Smith. Personally I think Emmanuel Ogbah will be a top ten pick and plays the position of biggest need for this team.
Quote:It depends what you think of a guy like Jaylon Smith. Personally I think Emmanuel Ogbah will be a top ten pick and plays the position of biggest need for this team.
I agree, Ogbah is an elite talent that not very many people are talking about. After the season his stock will soar
Quote:BAP.
Hargreaves III is an elite corner and you don't pass him up if we are picking between #3 and #10.
He is the real deal.
You certainly do pass him up if a defensive end is more important than a cornerback. The question is who would help the team more, a shudown cornerback or a defensive end compared to J.J. Watt?
Quote:I agree, Ogbah is an elite talent that not very many people are talking about. After the season his stock will soar
I hope it doesn't. I'd like to see him sneak down to late 1/ early 2
Quote:It depends what you think of a guy like Jaylon Smith. Personally I think Emmanuel Ogbah will be a top ten pick and plays the position of biggest need for this team.
Quote:You certainly do pass him up if a defensive end is more important than a cornerback. The question is who would help the team more, a shudown cornerback or a defensive end compared to J.J. Watt?
True, but it depends on who you think is rated higher. Of course, if all things were equal, you go DE > CB all day. In my opinion though, I believe VH III is the 3rd best overall player in the NFL draft.
I think Jaylon Smith is a pretty stout player and Ogbah is a very good prospect but I feel like if Hargreaves is available if we pick between #3 and #10, you have to take a player like him. Drafting BAP is HIGHLY dependent on how the GM ranks the prospects obviously.
Also, I hope Dante Fowler Jr. can make a strong come-back and be the player we drafted him to become.
Quote:I hope it doesn't. I'd like to see him sneak down to late 1/ early 2
I really do not see that happening. The kid is a stud.
Quote:True, but it depends on who you think is rated higher. Of course, if all things were equal, you go DE > CB all day. In my opinion though, I believe VH III is the 3rd best overall player in the NFL draft.
I think Jaylon Smith is a pretty stout player and Ogbah is a very good prospect but I feel like if Hargreaves is available if we pick between #3 and #10, you have to take a player like him. Drafting BAP is HIGHLY dependent on how the GM ranks the prospects obviously.
Also, I hope Dante Fowler Jr. can make a strong come-back and be the player we drafted him to become.
That is why I would rather pick Hargreaves than Bosa. We just picked a pass rusher, so it is time to fix the back end. But this is a case where I will be happy with the BAP because both guys can help us.
I don't know anything about Smith or Ogbah.