Quote:Two very different topics. The Patriot Act and asking land owners to give up a portion of their land to deal with immigration is not the same thing.
LOL, you really don't see how the patriot act took away freedoms, and what you said in Page 1 is doing the same thing. BOTH IN THE NAME OF SECURITY??
Seriously, you said it yourself...
Quote:Actually, if we're going to blow some caves up on the border, I nominate Eric to handle the entire operation. No Drones Allowed!!
I second this.
Its not about being obtuse. Its about a legitimate question of the opposition.
1.) for demolition purposes i see no difference between one form of ordinance and another.
2.) with the proliferation of groups that want to harm us i dont think we should be artificially truncating the amount of assets ee have available to neutralize a target.
The number of "patriots" in favor of bombing America scares me.
Quote:Its not about being obtuse. Its about a legitimate question of the opposition.
1.) for demolition purposes i see no difference between one form of ordinance and another.
2.) with the proliferation of groups that want to harm us i dont think we should be artificially truncating the amount of assets ee have available to neutralize a target.
Great point! Heck why not roll out the tanks getting no use or better yet have troopers set up with mortar teams and lob away. Even better, send some stealth bombers out and just turn the border into a wasteland.
No one in this thread advocated truncating anything. Literally it's about not using military ordinance on US soil. What do you not understand about that?
Quote:The number of "patriots" in favor of bombing America scares me.
Sounds similar to some groups they froth at the mouth about.
Demoliting an enemy accesspoint to this country isn't the same as "bombing america" but you know that. The amount of people who are content letting foreigners have complete unfettered unsupervised access to this countrt is scary.
As for the use of military ordinance i understand your opposition i just flatly disagree with it.
1.) military assets can and should be used to defend the borders of this country. The idea that drug cartels can enter at will should be the outrage.
2.) if we get confirmed actionable intel that wmd is in an acura that just crossed the border and we can deploy a drone to take it out u better believe ud be in favor of it.
No one is talking about driving a tank down main street just for kicks. Were talking about allowing professionals to use the resources they have available to neutralize potential threats to this country and as a patriot i dont think that should even be a question.
You know it's not just vacant, unclaimed land, right? A lot of these "caves"--and there are really not a lot of caves near the border, just rock overhangs--are either on private land, Indian land or national park land. Do you really think a rancher is going to wave hi to the drone as it bombs his range? Can you even begin to imagine the fallout from bombing national parks and wildlife refuges? Who's going to make sure that a family of endangered desert animals isn't making a den of it? And do you really want to be the person to go to the elders on the res and tell them that you'd like to bomb their tribal land?
Attacking "caves" is dumb. Bombing US soil is dumb. Bombing private land, national parks and tribal land is unbelievably stupid. When politicians stand up and say idiotic things like, "Finish the fence," which is impossible because of terrain, or, "Bomb caves with drones," we look like the biggest bunch of dipwits on the face of the earth. Instead of grand gestures of showmanship that accomplish next to nothing and/or never go anywhere, let's focus on building the digital fence with e-Verify, citizenship checks for anyone in a border state that is legally interacted with and Constitutionally required to identify themselves to law enforcement, and all that other stuff I rattled on about earlier, maybe even in a different thread. Impossible things like finishing the fence and moronic things like bombing caves will certainly win the votes of the rabid far right, but Dr. Carson is a very smart man. He's just floating bull to try and steal some votes away from Cruz and Trump, and he knows it.
Quote:Demoliting an enemy accesspoint to this country isn't the same as "bombing america" but you know that. The amount of people who are content letting foreigners have complete unfettered unsupervised access to this countrt is scary.
As for the use of military ordinance i understand your opposition i just flatly disagree with it.
1.) military assets can and should be used to defend the borders of this country. The idea that drug cartels can enter at will should be the outrage.
2.) if we get confirmed actionable intel that wmd is in an acura that just crossed the border and we can deploy a drone to take it out u better believe ud be in favor of it.
No one is talking about driving a tank down main street just for kicks. Were talking about allowing professionals to use the resources they have available to neutralize potential threats to this country and as a patriot i dont think that should even be a question.
So either you are launching a strike on American soil (exit point) or on Mexican (entry point). So you advocate bombing America or Mexico. Which one?
Quote:You know it's not just vacant, unclaimed land, right? A lot of these "caves"--and there are really not a lot of caves near the border, just rock overhangs--are either on private land, Indian land or national park land. Do you really think a rancher is going to wave hi to the drone as it bombs his range? Can you even begin to imagine the fallout from bombing national parks and wildlife refuges? Who's going to make sure that a family of endangered desert animals isn't making a den of it? And do you really want to be the person to go to the elders on the res and tell them that you'd like to bomb their tribal land?
Attacking "caves" is dumb. Bombing US soil is dumb. Bombing private land, national parks and tribal land is unbelievably stupid. When politicians stand up and say idiotic things like, "Finish the fence," which is impossible because of terrain, or, "Bomb caves with drones," we look like the biggest bunch of dipwits on the face of the earth. Instead of grand gestures of showmanship that accomplish next to nothing and/or never go anywhere, let's focus on building the digital fence with e-Verify, citizenship checks for anyone in a border state that is legally interacted with and Constitutionally required to identify themselves to law enforcement, and all that other stuff I rattled on about earlier, maybe even in a different thread. Impossible things like finishing the fence and moronic things like bombing caves will certainly win the votes of the rabid far right, but Dr. Carson is a very smart man. He's just floating bull to try and steal some votes away from Cruz and Trump, and he knows it.
Very well said :thumbsup:
Quote:Even more awesome than I imagined.
Thanks. :thumbsup:
I'm glad I could provide entertainment.
I'm surprised nobody has suggested annexing Mexico. I mean we already have the idea of drones and slavery out there.
Quote:I'm surprised nobody has suggested annexing Mexico. I mean we already have the idea of drones and slavery out there.
Well, we kind of did back in 1845, then again in (I believe) 1858. I mean, we've tried that. It didn't work.
Quote:LOL, you really don't see how the patriot act took away freedoms, and what you said in Page 1 is doing the same thing. BOTH IN THE NAME OF SECURITY??
Seriously, you said it yourself...
I'm still not sure what you are getting at.
The Patriot Act mandates that all citizens give up privacy (for the most part).
Can you reference where I said in Page 1 that does the same thing? I don't see it.
neither Dr. Carson or I were talking about indiscriminate drone strikes against Yogi and Boo Boo. That would just be crazy. I mean yeh, they took my pickenick basket (purposefully misspelled) but that's not worth a death sentence now is it?
In all seriousness that was a hypothetical about one potential target made in passing. He wasn't talking about green lighting the second airborne to blow up anything that moves. If there is infrastructure that enemies of this country use to gain access to our land it should be destroyed i think we can all agree on that.
And no, I am not talking about every naturally occurring cave or ledge in a rockface. We are talking about artificial tunnels or areas proven to be used for purposeful concealment.
Quote:neither Dr. Carson or I were talking about indiscriminate drone strikes against Yogi and Boo Boo. That would just be crazy. I mean yeh, they took my pickenick basket (purposefully misspelled) but that's not worth a death sentence now is it?
In all seriousness that was a hypothetical about one potential target made in passing. He wasn't talking about green lighting the second airborne to blow up anything that moves. If there is infrastructure that enemies of this country use to gain access to our land it should be destroyed i think we can all agree on that.
And no, I am not talking about every naturally occurring cave or ledge in a rockface. We are talking about artificial tunnels or areas proven to be used for purposeful concealment.
Does not matter to me what the scope of the operation. I am firmly against even the suggestion.
Quote:And no, I am not talking about every naturally occurring cave or ledge in a rockface. We are talking about artificial tunnels or areas proven to be used for purposeful concealment.
How, exactly, does one drop a bomb on an artificial tunnel? That seems horribly impractical and unnecessarily expensive. Why spend a tens of thousands, perhaps more, on flying time and ordinance when a few hundred dollars worth of concrete, poured into strategic places, will have the same effect?
Quote:Words mean a lot don't they? :yes:
However, is it not out of the question to make said bombing ranges or target ranges right along the border? What would stop us from doing so?
Quote:The farmers and ranchers that own land near and abutting the border, the Native Americans who have at least one reservation right along it, and the tens of thousands of ATVers who visit the Imperial Dunes every year, for starters.
Quote:Ask those very people if they are willing to give up an area for national security and see what they say.
There is the entire exchange.
Giving up the freedom of owning your property without having it trampled on by the government and giving up freedom of privacy from being trampled on by the government for the safety and benefit of "security" are the same darn thing. You cannot be for government intrusion via the military into private land, and then say the patriot act is bad. You cannot be for big Orwellian government in on case and against it in another. You need to reconcile those two points.
I understand you are a military man. That's great, but clearly it's clouding your objectivity...