Quote:I don't have to agree to that. Correlation is not causation, but it might have something to do with the continued drop in murder rates. All we know for sure is that it didn't cause murder rates to increase.
Compare this with the increase in CO2 causing global warming. Correlation is not causation, but it might have something to do with the increase in global temperatures since 1979. But all we know for sure is that the increase in CO2 didn't cause the temperature to drop.
What's your point? That correlation is not causation but you are willing to go along with it in certain situations where the correlation supports and outcome your prefer but not another?
Quote:My point is that although it didn't prove that concealed carry permits reduce the murder rate, it did prove that THE LEFT WAS WRONG about concealed carry permits causing an increase in the murder rates.
You immediately jump to imply hypocrisy when I never stated that concealed carry permits cause a drop in murders? In both cases of correlation I think the proponents should admit that they don't actually know if there is any causation. In both cases, causation (or partial causation) is possible.
I don't know enough to dispute that and I wouldn't think it would be the case either way but I'd wager there is not definitive proof regardless. I don't see why concealed carry would have anything to do with it. Perhaps overall number of guns but concealing legally is no different then concealing illegally. Only it's use.
Fair enough. It seemed based on your posting in other threads that that was the tact you were taking.
Quote:You also have to agree it has nothing to do with a drop in murder rates.
Actually, Lott proves it does.
Quote:My point is that although it didn't prove that concealed carry permits reduce the murder rate, it did prove that THE LEFT WAS WRONG about concealed carry permits causing an increase in the murder rates.
You immediately jump to imply hypocrisy when I never stated that concealed carry permits cause a drop in murders? In both cases of correlation I think the proponents should admit that they don't actually know if there is any causation. In both cases, causation (or partial causation) is possible.
Does anyone have the over-time statistics on how many murders and violent crimes have been committed by concealed carry permit holders? I found two sets of numbers, each from a party on one side or the other of the debate. Both are linked below. Goes without saying that they're each trying to get their own point across, and neither one addresses the simple question of murders/violent crimes committed by CCW holders over time. If we could see the numbers over time for CCW murders, it'd be very helpful to this argument. If anyone can find a credible, unbiased source (i.e., not a left/right-wing organization, news outlet or blog) that shows those numbers, please post it here.
http://www.vpc.org/press/1310ccw.html
http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myt...led-carry/
To your second point, all we have to go on is a correlation. Even the numbers I called into question above wouldn't show causation, just a stronger correlation one way or the other. There are so many factors that go into murder rates that it's entirely possible that increased CCW permits are playing some minor part in reducing murders, but I'm not at all sure that's the case (I tend to believe the opposite, actually), and it's almost a given that other factors are playing a much greater role in reducing the murder rate.
Quote:Obama has been very good for the gun market.
Ignorance and paranoia coupled with gullibility is what that amounts to.
Quote:Ignorance and paranoia coupled with gullibility is what that amounts to.
Don't kid yourself. Everyone knows the black man breaking into your house is just Obama coming after your guns.
He's also an illegal immigrant.
It all keeps adding up.
Quote:Actually, Lott proves it does.
Peer review and verified?
Quote:Ignorance and paranoia coupled with gullibility is what that amounts to.
I don't think it's ignorant to participate in the right to bear arms, I'm just saying Obama and his excessive talk about gun legislation has the opposite effect he desires.
Quote:I don't think it's ignorant to participate in the right to bear arms, I'm just saying Obama and his excessive talk about gun legislation has the opposite effect he desires.
I never know when it comes to him, but I think he was referring to the "Obama coming for your guns" rhetoric.
Quote:By actual liberals even.
Then how do you trust it?
Links or are they in the OP and I missed them.
Quote:Thanks, Obama?
On an unrelated note, is there a browser setting that can make web pages like the one linked any easier to read? I could barely scroll through it while images and video kept loading.
Addressing your "unrelated note". What web browser do you use? I personally use Chrome with Ad Block and Flash Block plugins, and I was able to click on the OP's link with no issues. I doubt that it's related, but I also use Linux rather than Windows or Mac.
I don't think that the OP's linked story really proves a whole lot, but why not compare something else?
Look at the crime statistics for the State of Illinois (specifically Chicago) and Washington DC (both with some of the most restrictive gun laws) as compared to Texas (one of the least restrictive states).
Also, take this
recent case as an example. This loon purchased firearms illegally, and intended to carry out an attack targeting a college campus. Why is that? Could it be because a college campus is a "gun free zone" so he knew that he would meet little if any resistance?