I finished watching a great HBO documentary last night about Abu Ghraib prison, and it was a real eye opener to say the least. The Bush Administration defended its policy on enhanced interrogation's by saying that since the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, along with other terror groups, never signed onto the Geneva Convention, and since they themselves deliberately target civilians and kill prisoners of their own, that consequently gives the US and other governments the right to use torture on suspected terrorists and captured fighters overseas. So say for instance that we capture a known ISIS fighter overseas who may have actionable intelligence about ISIS attack plans and its leaders; ISIS sure as hell doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions. So should we torture him?
I'm very interested in reading the responses to this question.
And here I thought this thread was going to be about the experience of trying to gain carnal satisfaction eight years into a marriage.
No. Torture doesn't work. We don't need to resort to our enemies tactics. I'd hope we're better than that.
I don't believe torture a reliable means of attaining information so I say no.
This is a very sticky subject.
First, we don't "officially" "torture" enemy combatants.
That being said, certain federal agencies do use certain interrogation techniques that some might consider "torture", and yes we should continue to do so. Using those techniques has saved many lives in the past, gained important intelligence and does in fact work.
It really depends on what is meant by "torture."
There are extraordinary interrogation tactics that are nothing more than what the typical local PD use to question suspects that some around here would without a doubt label as torture. There's definitely a line.
Quote:I don't believe torture a reliable means of attaining information so I say no.
How do you think that we were able to eventually find and kill bin Laden as well as others?
Quote:How do you think that we were able to eventually find and kill bin Laden as well as others?
Soothing words and long walks on the beach?
Quote:How do you think that we were able to eventually find and kill bin Laden as well as others?
"I had long since come to that conclusion myself. As special agent in charge of the criminal investigation task force with investigators and intelligence personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan, and Iraq, I was privy to the information provided by Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I was aware of no valuable information that came from waterboarding. And the Senate Intelligence Committee—which had access to all CIA documents related to the “enhanced interrogation” program—has concluded that abusive techniques didn’t help the hunt for Bin Laden. Cheney’s claim that the frequent waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed “produced phenomenal results for us" is simply false."
Read more: <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3dpb4NWz5'>http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3dpb4NWz5</a>
Quote:Soothing words and long walks on the beach?
Perhaps if the "soothing words" weren't "offensive" and were PC.
Quote:"I had long since come to that conclusion myself. As special agent in charge of the criminal investigation task force with investigators and intelligence personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan, and Iraq, I was privy to the information provided by Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I was aware of no valuable information that came from waterboarding. And the Senate Intelligence Committee—which had access to all CIA documents related to the “enhanced interrogation” program—has concluded that abusive techniques didn’t help the hunt for Bin Laden. Cheney’s claim that the frequent waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed “produced phenomenal results for us" is simply false."
Read more: <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3dpb4NWz5'>http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3dpb4NWz5</a>
I read the article. However, there is a lot more that happens that is not reported in the media. I'll just leave it at that. The whole issue was "exposed" as part of a political move. What really happens is not known and not in the media.
I'll simply cite my experience and credentials. I have worked on several military systems as well as helped develop civilian products that are in use today. Part of what I have had to do was train certain people on how to use said products. Some were special forces people while others worked for other agencies or contractors. Get a group of military and civilian people involved with this stuff together, and certain stories and things get said. Again, I'll just leave it at that.
Quote:I read the article. However, there is a lot more that happens that is not reported in the media. I'll just leave it at that. The whole issue was "exposed" as part of a political move. What really happens is not known and not in the media.
I'll simply cite my experience and credentials. I have worked on several military systems as well as helped develop civilian products that are in use today. Part of what I have had to do was train certain people on how to use said products. Some were special forces people while others worked for other agencies or contractors. Get a group of military and civilian people involved with this stuff together, and certain stories and things get said. Again, I'll just leave it at that.
I admittedly generally don't pay a lot of attention to this stuff, so I'm sure you know more about it than me. However, as you say, if it's success is not known to the general public, how can I have any other opinion on it?
That being said, I'm not sure if I consider things like water boarding torture. If I was shown that things like it produced reliable results then I could certainly change my mind.
Quote:I admittedly generally don't pay a lot of attention to this stuff, so I'm sure you know more about it than me. However, as you say, if it's success is not known to the general public, how can I have any other opinion on it?
That being said, I'm not sure if I consider things like water boarding torture. If I was shown that things like it produced reliable results then I could certainly change my mind.
The problem is, as I stated earlier, these techniques were exposed as part of a political move against President Bush and Vice President Cheney. The fact of the matter is this stuff has been going on for years/decades. The fact that it got leaked out is not going to change it.
Proof of said use can not be made to the general public, because it's classified intelligence. Especially in today's world giving details of success or failure of any program is detrimental to our well being.
Quote:I admittedly generally don't pay a lot of attention to this stuff, so I'm sure you know more about it than me. However, as you say, if it's success is not known to the general public, how can I have any other opinion on it?
That being said, I'm not sure if I consider things like water boarding torture. If I was shown that things like it produced reliable results then I could certainly change my mind.
Yeah, how are we supposed to think "Torture Works!" If it's not released to the public?
I think water boarding is torture. I certainly wouldn't let someone do it to me.
Quote:The problem is, as I stated earlier, these techniques were exposed as part of a political move against President Bush and Vice President Cheney. The fact of the matter is this stuff has been going on for years/decades. The fact that it got leaked out is not going to change it.
Proof of said use can not be made to the general public, because it's classified intelligence. Especially in today's world giving details of success or failure of any program is detrimental to our well being.
I have no doubt about the first paragraph at all but I'm not sure I understand the second part.
We have a massive U.S. Senate report documenting the failure of torture. But we can't hear general evidence of its success?
Quote:Yeah, how are we supposed to think "Torture Works!" If it's not released to the public?
I think water boarding is torture. I certainly wouldn't let someone do it to me.
Some things should never be public knowledge.
Water boarding is not "torture". It's not about "allowing" someone to do it to you, it's about how you react and what you say. I would bet that if you were water boarded, you would give your mother's maiden name and the pin number of a debit card.
Also, there is no physical harm or danger to waterboarding a person.
Quote:Yeah, how are we supposed to think "Torture Works!" If it's not released to the public?
I think water boarding is torture. I certainly wouldn't let someone do it to me.
Me either, and certainly it wouldn't be pleasant. I think the same about getting punched in the mouth too, but I wouldn't consider that torture per se either.
There is obviously a huge gray area here. The secrecy behind the whole thing is a problem in my eyes. It seems to me you can acknowledge what we do and don't do too these people without giving any specific damaging information.
Quote:I have no doubt about the first paragraph at all but I'm not sure I understand the second part.
We have a massive U.S. Senate report documenting the failure of torture. But we can't hear general evidence of its success?
Once again, the "report" documenting failure is nothing more than a political tool. The worst thing to do, especially in today's world is "advertise" success or failure regarding anything.
Quote:Me either, and certainly it wouldn't be pleasant. I think the same about getting punched in the mouth too, but I wouldn't consider that torture per se either.
There is obviously a huge gray area here. The secrecy behind the whole thing is a problem in my eyes. It seems to me you can acknowledge what we do and don't do too these people without giving any specific damaging information.
Sure, but you're not breaking anyone's will by punching them in the mouth. Just their jaw.
I don't see how it isn't torture.
Torture clearly is a horrible thing. For instance, how else can you rationalize FBT still being a Mod, he clearly hates having to read all our posts... What information are you holding on to FBT? Whatever it is, you clearly are a saint.
FREE FBT!!!!!!!!