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SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:13 PM

Bullseye:

Why has FSU never created a TE worth anything in the NFL?

Should that mean you don't even look at Nick O'Leary? (I wouldn't draft O'Leary because I think he's not athletic or big/strong enough, but I think as a late round pick he is a solid player)

I think FSU has some really good TEs on their roster now. In a couple of years, should we just ignore those TEs? After all, FSU has never produced a good TE in the league, right?

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:14 PM

Quote:Bullseye:

Why has FSU never created a TE worth anything in the NFL?

Should that mean you don't even look at Nick O'Leary? (I wouldn't draft O'Leary because I think he's not athletic or big/strong enough, but I think as a late round pick he is a solid player)

I think FSU has some really good TEs on their roster now. In a couple of years, should we just ignore those TEs? After all, FSU has never produced a good TE in the league, right?

The premise behind your question is flawed.

Orson Mobley went to FSU and was a decent blocking TE. The Bills also drafted Lonnie Johnson in the 2nd round in 1994. He had a good career. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/pl...hnLo00.htm

But even if you exclude them from consideration, that might be a knock against O'Leary if FSU did not produce TEs.

Let me turn this around.

Suppose the Univ. Miami went from a pro style offense they have typically employed since the 1980s, and implemented the wishbone.

Would you be more or less inclined to look at Miami QBs?

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:The logic is the same.

If he tends towards schools that produce players and away from those who don't, why wouldn't he apply that logic as it applies to positions? If a school NEVER produces good players at that position, if he is playing the percentages, why would he go to that school looking for players at the position the school doesn't produce, unless there is a complete aberration of a player?

Navy competes on the FBS level. Would you expect Caldwell to spend much time scouting their players?

Why or why not?

Absolutely I expect him to spend time scouting those players.

If navy plays Ohio State, and a certain Navy player jumps off the page - they will take notice.

If that players has his future set on the NFL and does well at the combine and positional drills and interviews and all that other stuff, I expect that Navy player to be on the draft board.

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:The premise behind your question is flawed.

Orson Mobley went to FSU and was a decent blocking TE.

But even if you exclude him from consideration, that might be a knock against O'Leary.

a-ha! So you get to move the goal posts as you wish. So Orson Mobley is the best example you can find that would make my logic flawed. Got ya. Brilliant.

TJBender · 02-25-2015, 02:22 PM

Quote:The premise behind your question is flawed.

Orson Mobley went to FSU and was a decent blocking TE.

But even if you exclude him from consideration, that might be a knock against O'Leary.

We can bust out examples until the cows come home. Here's the biggest piece of evidence against school-based bias in the NFL: Penn State running backs.

Between 1990 and 2003, every Penn State running back drafted, particularly in the first round (with the exception of Larry Johnson, who narrowly avoided the label) was a complete and utter failure in the pros. Yet, despite that track record, NFL teams kept going back to the well and burning high picks on guys like Blair Thomas, Ki-Jana Carter, Curtis Enis, Johnson, and a second-rounder (Tony something?) whose name I've since forgotten. If there was a bias against certain positions from certain schools, Johnson would have been lucky to have been drafted at all, but instead he was a first-round pick.

If there is any greater proof that NFL teams don't regard simply playing a certain position at a certain school to make you suddenly unworthy of a pick above a certain round, I have yet to find it.

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:23 PM

you can find marginal players that bounced around the NFL even as Penn State DBs:

Bhawoh Jue was as good of a player at his position if not better than Orson Mobley or the Johnsons.

Bryan Scott also played pretty well for a couple of years.

David Macklin was also a nice player for a while.

No pro-bowlers, but why couldn't Amos be a guy like the 3 I mentioned? Or better? Sure, he could also be worse - but that's not really the debate here, is it?

JackCity · 02-25-2015, 02:26 PM

Quote:1. No, App state isn't a CB producing powerhouse.

2. McCray was, what, a 6th-7th round pick?

What sensible person expects a starter, much less a QUALITY starter, out of a 7th round pick, irrespective of where they went to school, much less a school that does not have much history producing players at that position?

If he were truly viewed to be a dominant corner in a pass happy league, why did he fall that far?

I understand the draft quite well, thank you very much.

Who's saying to expect a quality starter from a 7th round pick?

Amos is projected to go anywhere from 4th to 7th round,I believe he would be an upgrade over Josh Evans with the potential to go further than that.

He could also amount to absolutely nothing in the NFL, I'm aware of this.

If you understand the draft then you would understand why your logic is flawed.

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:26 PM

Quote:Bullseye:

Why has FSU never created a TE worth anything in the NFL?

Should that mean you don't even look at Nick O'Leary? (I wouldn't draft O'Leary because I think he's not athletic or big/strong enough, but I think as a late round pick he is a solid player)

I think FSU has some really good TEs on their roster now. In a couple of years, should we just ignore those TEs? After all, FSU has never produced a good TE in the league, right?

Lonnie Johnson was a 4 year starter and had three years in excess of 40 receptions in a year.

But even if you exclude him from consideration and go with the premise they haven't produced TEs, the "why" could be their paradigms for offense, either schematically or personnel wise, did not lend itself to producing NFL caliber TEs.

This same paradigm produced good WRs, good OLs, a good RB or two (more if you count FBs), but for whatever reason, not many TEs.

It happens.

The University of Miami has produced stud players at almost every position, but no bonafide cover CB. Duane Starks was a first rounder but just a guy in the scheme of things. Their schemes have been largely the same defensively until Golden became coach. Why does a school with a history of attracting top notch talent not produce at CB?

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

jackinblack · 02-25-2015, 02:28 PM

Quote:Understand that cuts both ways.

Exactly, the draft is not an exact science. I'm sure there's a reason why there hasn't been any good DBs come out of PSU, but there can always be an exception to that general rule. That's why I'm interested to see more cutups of him.

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:30 PM

Quote:a-ha! So you get to move the goal posts as you wish. So Orson Mobley is the best example you can find that would make my logic flawed. Got ya. Brilliant.

Lonnie Johnson is a better example, admittedly, but my argument still stands.

Do you not look at O'Leary at all?

No. Take a look.

If he displays signs of being a dominant player despite the school's lack of lineage, give him more consideration.

If he is , just a guy, pass. Not difficult at all.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:33 PM

Quote:Exactly, the draft is not an exact science. I'm sure there's a reason why there hasn't been any good DBs come out of PSU, but there can always be an exception to that general rule. That's why I'm interested to see more cutups of him.

Yes, exceptions happen. No denying that.

But understand, you are talking about the exception of the exception here.

If a Penn State guy showed Charles Woodson type ability in the future, yes I take more than a look at him.

If a Penn State guy showed no special attributes like all of the other nondescript Penn St. DBs that came before him, then I give a look to confirm what I see, but not much more.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:36 PM

Quote:Lonnie Johnson is a better example, admittedly, but my argument still stands.

Do you not look at O'Leary at all?

No. Take a look.

If he displays signs of being a dominant player despite the school's lack of lineage, give him more consideration.

If he is , just a guy, pass. Not difficult at all.

There are a lot of positions on a football team.

To expect a school to develop pro-bowl players at 22 separate positions, for example, is crazy - considering how many players get drafted each year and how many schools there are.

That's at least one of the big reasons why you haven't seen stars at certain positions from certain schools. Not because there is a "Penn State Defensive Backs Curse" or anything like that.

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:37 PM

Quote:Yes, exceptions happen. No denying that.

But understand, you are talking about the exception of the exception here.

If a Penn State guy showed Charles Woodson type ability in the future, yes I take more than a look at him.

If a Penn State guy showed no special attributes like all of the other nondescript Penn St. DBs that came before him, then I give a look to confirm what I see, but not much more.

how is that any different from what we're doing?

We're giving this guy a look. A look in the mid to late rounds. In a draft that's pretty weak at safety, knowing that safety is a weakness on this team and shouldn't be THAT hard to upgrade.

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:39 PM

Quote:Who's saying to expect a quality starter from a 7th round pick?

Amos is projected to go anywhere from 4th to 7th round,I believe he would be an upgrade over Josh Evans with the potential to go further than that.

He could also amount to absolutely nothing in the NFL, I'm aware of this.

If you understand the draft then you would understand why your logic is flawed.

You are drawing a distinction without a difference

Even assuming he is drafted as a 4th round pick, you can't reasonably expect him to start.

http://www.csnwashington.com/football-wa...ters-draft

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

HURRICANE!!! · 02-25-2015, 02:47 PM

I'm with Bullseye on this one. The reason this PSU discussion is unique is that Paterno coached PSU for 40 years so the philosophy didn't change --- in his system the DL and LBs made the plays and his secondary was solid role players. THIS WILL CHANGE MOVING FORWARD IN ABOUT 3 YEARS because James Franklin likes speed and understands what it's going to take to compete against Urban at OSU. James Franklin recruits out of the south whereas JoePa was a little more regional (with certain exceptions of course).

The difference when people bring FSU TEs into the mix is O'Leary is Jimbo's recruit so put aside the Bowden philosophy that didn't feature TEs in the past and insert Jimbo's philosophy which is more of a pro style philosophy.

Perhaps the argument should be made that you don't want a "Paterno" secondary rather than labeling it PSU.

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:50 PM

Quote:There are a lot of positions on a football team.

To expect a school to develop pro-bowl players at 22 separate positions, for example, is crazy - considering how many players get drafted each year and how many schools there are.

That's at least one of the big reasons why you haven't seen stars at certain positions from certain schools. Not because there is a "Penn State Defensive Backs Curse" or anything like that.

No...I don't expect a college to expect Pro Bowlers at EVERY position.

Heck, as great as USC and Miami have been at producing NFL players, they haven't produced great players at EVERY position.

Can Penn State improve the NFL fates of their DBs? Possibly, by successfully recruiting better players and putting them in schemes that translate to the NFL. If Amos has anything going for him, is that his former college coach, O'Brien, coached in the NFL before becoming Penn St. coach. He likely implemented some NFL defensive principles and for that matter, offensive principles he saw every day in practice. Perhaps this will help in his transition.

For as many players Alabama has produced over the years, for a long time, they hadn't produced anything resembling a stud WR, which was odd, because over the years, they produced great QBs (Starr, Namath, Stabler), at least one great TE (Ozzie Newsome) and great OLs. It wasn't until Nick Saban came in, after stints in the NFL, that Alabama started producing stud WRs in Julio Jones and now Amari Cooper.

Maybe this is what it will take for Penn State to produce good DBs.

But until they do, I will be skeptical about the long term pro prospects of Penn State DBs.

I haven't been proven wrong yet on that stance.

The last time I had this debate on a Penn State DB, this guy was trying to sell me on how wonderful Alan Zemaitis was going to be.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:52 PM

Quote:how is that any different from what we're doing?

We're giving this guy a look. A look in the mid to late rounds. In a draft that's pretty weak at safety, knowing that safety is a weakness on this team and shouldn't be THAT hard to upgrade.

So if Amos were a superior player, why wouldn't he be higher ranked in a draft deemed weak at S?

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 02-25-2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:So if Amos were a superior player, why wouldn't he be higher ranked in a draft deemed weak at S?

Look, guy, where did I say Amos is better than Evans?

You're the one that jumped at the OP saying NO, Penn State DBs suck.

Just by going on probabilities, Amos specifically isn't going to do much in NFL. You can pick any random player with a mid-round grade and say that about him.

My point was that you still look at him, and you still draft him if you like him enough. Thinking about "oh penn state hasn't had any good defensive backs" is stupid. Coaches change, schemes change, PLAYERS CHANGE, and that's why it's a stupid way of looking at it.

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 02:59 PM

Quote:No...I don't expect a college to expect Pro Bowlers at EVERY position.

Heck, as great as USC and Miami have been at producing NFL players, they haven't produced great players at EVERY position.

Can Penn State improve the NFL fates of their DBs? Possibly, by successfully recruiting better players and putting them in schemes that translate to the NFL. If Amos has anything going for him, is that his former college coach, O'Brien, coached in the NFL before becoming Penn St. coach. He likely implemented some NFL defensive principles and for that matter, offensive principles he saw every day in practice.

For as many players Alabama has produced over the years, for a long time, they hadn't produced anything resembling a stud WR, which was odd, because over the years, they produced great QBs (Starr, Namath, Stabler), at least one great TE (Ozzie Newsome) and great OLs. It wasn't until Nick Saban came in, after stints in the NFL, that Alabama started producing stud WRs in Julio Jones and now Amari Cooper.

Maybe this is what it will take for Penn State to produce good DBs.

But until they do, I will be skeptical about the long term pro prospects of Penn State DBs.

I haven't been proven wrong yet on that stance.

Quote:I'm with Bullseye on this one. The reason this PSU discussion is unique is that Paterno coached PSU for 40 years so the philosophy didn't change --- in his system the DL and LBs made the plays and his secondary was solid role players. THIS WILL CHANGE MOVING FORWARD IN ABOUT 3 YEARS because James Franklin likes speed and understands what it's going to take to compete against Urban at OSU. James Franklin recruits out of the south whereas JoePa was a little more regional (with certain exceptions of course).

The difference when people bring FSU TEs into the mix is O'Leary is Jimbo's recruit so put aside the Bowden philosophy that didn't feature TEs in the past and insert Jimbo's philosophy which is more of a pro style philosophy.

Perhaps the argument should be made that you don't want a "Paterno" secondary rather than labeling it PSU.

The odd thing is that for a long time, going back to Bruce Clark, Penn State didn't produce any DL worth anything, either.

I thought from a physical standpoint, Courtney Brown could break through with that, but I was never sold on his production at Penn State. Jimmy Kennedy bombed.

The Giants had a rotational guy on one of their recent Super Bowl teams who was decent (can't recall his name). The two guys to really break through for them-Tamba Hali and Cameron Wake-both changed positions and now both play OLB. Only Wake seemed to have major impact as a DE.

But their LBs? Even until the very end of the Paterno era, they were always producing stud LBs.

Now if what you say about Franklin is true and he is putting a larger emphasis on speed, then their DBs and receivers should be better going forward.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

Bullseye · 02-25-2015, 03:04 PM

Quote:Look, guy, where did I say Amos is better than Evans?

You're the one that jumped at the OP saying NO, Penn State DBs suck.

Just by going on probabilities, Amos specifically isn't going to do much in NFL. You can pick any random player with a mid-round grade and say that about him.

My point was that you still look at him, and you still draft him if you like him enough. Thinking about "oh penn state hasn't had any good defensive backs" is stupid. Coaches change, schemes change, PLAYERS CHANGE, and that's why it's a stupid way of looking at it.

The point is that you don't heavily emphasize the schools that don't produce talented players unless you see a superior player there. Just like Caldwell prefers bigger schools to smaller ones, if a school is not producing NFL caliber players at a position, then you shy away from their players if they don't appear dominant.

He doesn't appear dominant when I saw him. He goes to a school that has, to date, a poor DB lineage.

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt, no matter how much protest I get from this thread.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!