You guys are dumb. Seriously. I get just owning it, and trying to overcome the obstacles that are in the way, but you guys are the obstacle. You are blind.

So, you're saying that if we stop posting negative things about Trump his supporters on this board (you included) will admit that he lost fair and square?

Deal!

I'll keep up my end of the bargain, and won't post anything negative concerning your guy starting right now, and I'll be waiting for you to "own" it.

For the record, I do not think you are dumb like me but I do not share your support for DT.

No, Americus, I am talking to Kodiak, and everyone else that wants to casually dismiss what happened in this election. I don't really think they are dumb, and almost didn't post it, but the bootstrap conservatives are pissing me off. You are not going to be able to just roll up your sleeves and overcome this. I know many intelligent people who are more afraid of the word "conspiracy" than they are of an actual threat to our institutions. I really don't think people understand what we are up against. People who think Dems cheated are not anything like flat earthers, and it's ridiculous and brainless to make those kinds of comparisons. Dems have every reason to cheat. The elections are not transparent. The media is complicit in the corruption. If you don't think there was fraud, you are deluding yourself. This is a separate discussion from whether or not it was going to be overturned in the courts. I have been clear from day one that it wasn't going to happen without hard evidence, and Trump's team has not provided it. 

I don't mind posters who point out the improbability of Trump winning in the courts and chastising Trump supporters who blindly believe he is going to win. I tell every Trump supporter that I know to stop living in a bubble, because courts have standards, and it's unlikely than any judge is going to unilaterally make such a controversial decision, let alone collectively. I have never thought for one second that Trump was going to be able to do that without some kind of hard evidence. That said, it's also very clear that dems are [BLEEP] with the system. I could list the reasons why in one post (that would be gigantic), but it wouldn't be anything drastically different than what I've posted across multiple threads. They attack the processes that make our election transparent, and remove the processes that allow for accountability. This has been happening for years. The people who hate Trump are willing to look the other way in this instance, because they want a return to the norm, but that's not the real problem. Trump isn't the cause of the disease, he's a symptom of it.

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So, you're saying that if we stop posting negative things about Trump his supporters on this board (you included) will admit that he lost fair and square?

Deal!

I'll keep up my end of the bargain, and won't post anything negative concerning your guy starting right now, and I'll be waiting for you to "own" it.

For the record, I do not think you are dumb like me but I do not share your support for DT.

No, Americus, I am talking to Kodiak, and everyone else that wants to casually dismiss what happened in this election. I don't really think they are dumb, and almost didn't post it, but the bootstrap conservatives are pissing me off. You are not going to be able to just roll up your sleeves and overcome this. I know many intelligent people who are more afraid of the word "conspiracy" than they are of an actual threat to our institutions. I really don't think people understand what we are up against. People who think Dems cheated are not anything like flat earthers, and it's ridiculous and brainless to make those kinds of comparisons. Dems have every reason to cheat. The elections are not transparent. The media is complicit in the corruption. If you don't think there was fraud, you are deluding yourself. This is a separate discussion from whether or not it was going to be overturned in the courts. I have been clear from day one that it wasn't going to happen without hard evidence, and Trump's team has not provided it. 

I don't mind posters who point out the improbability of Trump winning in the courts and chastising Trump supporters who blindly believe he is going to win. I tell every Trump supporter that I know to stop living in a bubble, because courts have standards, and it's unlikely than any judge is going to unilaterally make such a controversial decision, let alone collectively. I have never thought for one second that Trump was going to be able to do that without some kind of hard evidence. That said, it's also very clear that dems are [BLEEP] with the system. I could list the reasons why in one post (that would be gigantic), but it wouldn't be anything drastically different than what I've posted across multiple threads. They attack the processes that make our election transparent, and remove the processes that allow for accountability. This has been happening for years. The people who hate Trump are willing to look the other way in this instance, because they want a return to the norm, but that's not the real problem. Trump isn't the cause of the disease, he's a symptom of it.

So what do you want us to do? If we can’t overturn the election with proof, what are we supposed to do? 

We can monitor and try to stay ahead of fraud in succeeding elections, but the fact of the matter is there is nothing to work with now. 

Either 1) They’ve stolen the election because they’ve hidden the evidence so well or 2) it did not occur to such levels to overturn the results.

What is there to do at this point?

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The people who hate Trump are willing to look the other way in this instance, because they want a return to the norm, but that's not the real problem. Trump isn't the cause of the disease, he's a symptom of it.

I agree Trump is best understood as a symptom of a disease.
The disease is a breakdown of social trust.
Society and technology are changing rapidly, and these changes are inevitable. But with very little social trust, people feel like they are going to victims rather than beneficiaries of these changes.
On the right you find a whole cottage industry of hucksters profiting off reducing social trust; Limbaugh is the godfather of them all but there are many more now. But the effects are deeper on the left.  Polls consistently show that people on the left feel more hate towards people who disagree with them.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Outrage is good if it leads to results. Change is often brought about by those most affected by bad policy. So, for starters, we need to stop equivocating what happened with conspiracy theories. More effort is being directed at the people complaining than the policies that lead to the complaining. That's absurd. We need to have a serious discussion about election integrity, but who is talking about it? Who is going to talk about it? We can't even have a discussion about what to do if we are all pretending fraud doesn't exist. I disagree with your either or scenario, but that aside, what should we do?

I will break this down into a few different issues.

Firstly, we need to stop breaking down election transparency, which means pushing back against changes that undermine our current system. We need to get rid of ballot harvesting, ballot curing, and universal mail-in voting, which includes processes like people requesting mail-in ballots for disinterested voters. If people don't want to vote, that's their choice, and we need to stop associating voter turn out with voter suppression (a democrat tactic).

Secondly, we should safeguard challengers right to observe an election. This not only includes their right to be present during all changes, but also includes protecting them from unfair removal, ensuring they are close enough to see what's going on, and clear access to any area being worked by an election official. It's ridiculous how many observers were harassed, threatened, and removed in democrat strongholds.

Thirdly, we need to ensure that our voting machines are secure. We can start by making sure they are not connected to the internet. We need to do a random audit of every type of machine after any election, and we need to do a full audit in the case of a contested election or where anomalies are found. Machines need to keep a log of data for ten years, and failure to do so needs to come with severe consequences.

Fourthly, we need to authorize full ballot audits in contested elections or areas with anomalies, which includes signature matching, and searching for suspicious votes. Some examples from the trials were batches of votes that were unfolded and looked printed. Wouldn't it be good to call a random sample of voters from that batch to see if they voted? We have the capacity to tie each vote to a person. There is no reason in this day and age to not have voter ID. We can watermark ballots and have chip ID that literally renders every ballot useless that doesn't have a card scan associated with it, but I digress.

These are 4 things off the top of my head, but are any of these things going to come to pass? Why not? Which party would object to most of them? You can't get this implemented because we can't even get the conversation going. They aren't hiding it well. We just aren't really looking for it.

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No, Americus, I am talking to Kodiak, and everyone else that wants to casually dismiss what happened in this election. I don't really think they are dumb, and almost didn't post it, but the bootstrap conservatives are pissing me off. You are not going to be able to just roll up your sleeves and overcome this. I know many intelligent people who are more afraid of the word "conspiracy" than they are of an actual threat to our institutions. I really don't think people understand what we are up against. People who think Dems cheated are not anything like flat earthers, and it's ridiculous and brainless to make those kinds of comparisons. Dems have every reason to cheat. The elections are not transparent. The media is complicit in the corruption. If you don't think there was fraud, you are deluding yourself. This is a separate discussion from whether or not it was going to be overturned in the courts. I have been clear from day one that it wasn't going to happen without hard evidence, and Trump's team has not provided it. 

I don't mind posters who point out the improbability of Trump winning in the courts and chastising Trump supporters who blindly believe he is going to win. I tell every Trump supporter that I know to stop living in a bubble, because courts have standards, and it's unlikely than any judge is going to unilaterally make such a controversial decision, let alone collectively. I have never thought for one second that Trump was going to be able to do that without some kind of hard evidence. That said, it's also very clear that dems are [BLEEP] with the system. I could list the reasons why in one post (that would be gigantic), but it wouldn't be anything drastically different than what I've posted across multiple threads. They attack the processes that make our election transparent, and remove the processes that allow for accountability. This has been happening for years. The people who hate Trump are willing to look the other way in this instance, because they want a return to the norm, but that's not the real problem. Trump isn't the cause of the disease, he's a symptom of it.

So what do you want us to do? If we can’t overturn the election with proof, what are we supposed to do? 

We can monitor and try to stay ahead of fraud in succeeding elections, but the fact of the matter is there is nothing to work with now. 

Either 1) They’ve stolen the election because they’ve hidden the evidence so well or 2) it did not occur to such levels to overturn the results.

What is there to do at this point?

As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

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So what do you want us to do? If we can’t overturn the election with proof, what are we supposed to do? 

We can monitor and try to stay ahead of fraud in succeeding elections, but the fact of the matter is there is nothing to work with now. 

Either 1) They’ve stolen the election because they’ve hidden the evidence so well or 2) it did not occur to such levels to overturn the results.

What is there to do at this point?

As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

The depths of your willingness to be an immature petty bomb thrower never ceases to amaze me.

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As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

Jesus was tied up on other global issues so God sent Guiliani in to pursue the Trump victory.

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As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

The depths of your willingness to be an immature petty bomb thrower never ceases to amaze me.

Wait. Have some conservatives not said this?

I also don’t see you calling out the thousands of “petty bombs” that have been thrown out the last 4 years.

Wonder why.....

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The depths of your willingness to be an immature petty bomb thrower never ceases to amaze me.

Wait. Have some conservatives not said this?

I also don’t see you calling out the thousands of “petty bombs” that have been thrown out the last 4 years.

Wonder why.....

I'm sure some have said it, but that's not the point nor did it even approach the subject of the conversation. I asked L2L an earnest question and he replied with some reasonable points any critical thinking person would consider, regardless of political stripe. Like a recalcitrant 11-year-old, you stepped in to fart loudly and then run away laughing. It was an utterly pointless remark. 

There's a time and place for petty smack talking. I engage in it myself. But your senseless taunt was off the mark.

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So what do you want us to do? If we can’t overturn the election with proof, what are we supposed to do? 

We can monitor and try to stay ahead of fraud in succeeding elections, but the fact of the matter is there is nothing to work with now. 

Either 1) They’ve stolen the election because they’ve hidden the evidence so well or 2) it did not occur to such levels to overturn the results.

What is there to do at this point?

As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

I've heard fellow Christian friends say this and I want to smack them. Most of them are also Trump supporters in ways that I never saw coming. It's like politics became their religious belief and Trump the Second Coming. That's some scary junk right there. I don't want to violate the CoC so I'll stop there, but yeah that's a dumb statement.

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As I’ve seen many conservatives say, we gotta put it in gods hands at this point. God wants Trump to be president so we just wait for him to appoint Trump the true victor.

I've heard fellow Christian friends say this and I want to smack them. Most of them are also Trump supporters in ways that I never saw coming. It's like politics became their religious belief and Trump the Second Coming. That's some scary junk right there. I don't want to violate the CoC so I'll stop there, but yeah that's a dumb statement.

Agreed.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

So, you're saying that if we stop posting negative things about Trump his supporters on this board (you included) will admit that he lost fair and square?

Deal!

I'll keep up my end of the bargain, and won't post anything negative concerning your guy starting right now, and I'll be waiting for you to "own" it.

For the record, I do not think you are dumb like me but I do not share your support for DT.

No, Americus, I am talking to Kodiak, and everyone else that wants to casually dismiss what happened in this election. I don't really think they are dumb, and almost didn't post it, but the bootstrap conservatives are pissing me off. You are not going to be able to just roll up your sleeves and overcome this. I know many intelligent people who are more afraid of the word "conspiracy" than they are of an actual threat to our institutions. I really don't think people understand what we are up against. People who think Dems cheated are not anything like flat earthers, and it's ridiculous and brainless to make those kinds of comparisons. Dems have every reason to cheat. The elections are not transparent. The media is complicit in the corruption. If you don't think there was fraud, you are deluding yourself. This is a separate discussion from whether or not it was going to be overturned in the courts. I have been clear from day one that it wasn't going to happen without hard evidence, and Trump's team has not provided it. 

I don't mind posters who point out the improbability of Trump winning in the courts and chastising Trump supporters who blindly believe he is going to win. I tell every Trump supporter that I know to stop living in a bubble, because courts have standards, and it's unlikely than any judge is going to unilaterally make such a controversial decision, let alone collectively. I have never thought for one second that Trump was going to be able to do that without some kind of hard evidence. That said, it's also very clear that dems are [BLEEP] with the system. I could list the reasons why in one post (that would be gigantic), but it wouldn't be anything drastically different than what I've posted across multiple threads. They attack the processes that make our election transparent, and remove the processes that allow for accountability. This has been happening for years. The people who hate Trump are willing to look the other way in this instance, because they want a return to the norm, but that's not the real problem. Trump isn't the cause of the disease, he's a symptom of it.

So, is that a "no" on owning it?

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"We believe in victory!"   - Gus Bradley
"I don't want to believe.  I want to know."   - Carl Sagan

For the record, I've already accepted that Biden is going to be President. I don't think Trump has some ace up his sleeve. I have never doted on Trump like his some mythical savior. What is it you want me to "own," exactly? Let's play this pretend game where I completely disregard anything that happened this election, and I'm all in on Team Biden. What election reform is going to happen? Oh, that's right... none.

There is no "owning it," because my only concern is reforming the processes that are leading to the mistrust of our system. Your smugness is unearned.

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Btw, a reminder: We wouldn't need to be talking about reform if Democrats would stop breaking the system. They oppose literally every tool that brings accountability and transparency. It's only their control of information that allows the uninformed to give them the benefit of the doubt.

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For the record, I've already accepted that Biden is going to be President. I don't think Trump has some ace up his sleeve. I have never doted on Trump like his some mythical savior. What is it you want me to "own," exactly? Let's play this pretend game where I completely disregard anything that happened this election, and I'm all in on Team Biden. What election reform is going to happen? Oh, that's right... none.

There is no "owning it," because my only concern is reforming the processes that are leading to the mistrust of our system. Your smugness is unearned.

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Btw, a reminder: We wouldn't need to be talking about reform if Democrats would stop breaking the system. They oppose literally every tool that brings accountability and transparency. It's only their control of information that allows the uninformed to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This seems to be the case for everything. The victim mentality is strong in the leftist liberals.

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What percentage of scam do you guys think is going on?
Are we talking .000000026 percent?(which sounds about right to me)
Or do you guys think more than 1% of the votes are fake?
The idea of a wide spread fraud is almost humorous to me.
Also, there's a reason why hes bringing ZERO evidence.

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s
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What percentage of scam do you guys think is going on?
Are we talking .000000026 percent?(which sounds about right to me)  
Or do you guys think more than 1% of the votes are fake?
The idea of a wide spread fraud is almost humorous to me.
Also, there's a reason why hes bringing ZERO evidence.

It’s that “wide spread” part that seems to get people hung up on it. It doesn’t have to be wide spread. You’d just need control of the votes in a few key cites to entirely change up an election.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

What percentage of scam do you guys think is going on?
Are we talking .000000026 percent?(which sounds about right to me)  
Or do you guys think more than 1% of the votes are fake?
The idea of a wide spread fraud is almost humorous to me.
Also, there's a reason why hes bringing ZERO evidence.

It’s that “wide spread” part that seems to get people hung up on it. It doesn’t have to be wide spread. You’d just need control of the votes in a few key cites to entirely change up an election.

At the county or district level, that's absolutely true.
For statewide races, that is not true.
The closest state in the 2020 presidential elections Georgia, and the margin was nearly 12,000 votes. it's possible some of the larger counties in Georgia could have fabricated such a thing, but somebody would have seen and told by now.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Isn't it funny that's basically the exact scenario that occurred in Atlanta, Pittsburg, Milwaukee, and Detroit. High population counties under democrat control kicked out observers and worked around the clock for days after the election. Not one of them ended up coming up short.

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