I've found it very difficult not to make some comment regarding current events, even though I very rarely do so. I likely won't have anything else to say on the matter beyond this statement.
While I don't expect it to have much effect on this message board, I can't help but beg you all for an effort toward unity in response to acts of hate. Racism is poison. It is deadly to us all. We must endeavor to rid ourselves of it entirely. This is true regardless of your background, geographic location, upbringing, political inclinations, or any other excuse one may invent to look the other way. Whatever you can do to show love and compassion to all of your fellow humans - I pray you all will make more effort to do so in the wake of events that intend to incite further hatred.

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I've found it very difficult not to make some comment regarding current events, even though I very rarely do so. I likely won't have anything else to say on the matter beyond this statement.
While I don't expect it to have much effect on this message board, I can't help but beg you all for an effort toward unity in response to acts of hate. Racism is poison. It is deadly to us all. We must endeavor to rid ourselves of it entirely. This is true regardless of your background, geographic location, upbringing, political inclinations, or any other excuse one may invent to look the other way. Whatever you can do to show love and compassion to all of your fellow humans - I pray you all will make more effort to do so in the wake of events that intend to incite further hatred.

One of the 3 "acts of hate" that occurred was actually a Constitutionally protected right, but the story is all about how they are to blame. I guess blaming the victim is only ok when the victim is using unapproved content in their speech.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Here's how I see the whole thing.

These people holding a "rally" are no better or worse than BLM, except for the fact that they weren't rioting and destroying property.  They also had the Constitutional right to express their message, even though I along with others don't agree with it.  Either way, they were peacefully expressing their right to free speech.

The counter-protesters were essentially trying to shut down free speech since they didn't agree with the message.  Again, this is their right and I back their right to do so, even though I don't agree with them either.

The clown that ran the car into counter-protesters needs to go to jail and face the charges, in this case probably 1st degree murder (among other things).  The outcome of those charges needs to be implemented up to and including the death penalty.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I've found it very difficult not to make some comment regarding current events, even though I very rarely do so. I likely won't have anything else to say on the matter beyond this statement.
While I don't expect it to have much effect on this message board, I can't help but beg you all for an effort toward unity in response to acts of hate. Racism is poison. It is deadly to us all. We must endeavor to rid ourselves of it entirely. This is true regardless of your background, geographic location, upbringing, political inclinations, or any other excuse one may invent to look the other way. Whatever you can do to show love and compassion to all of your fellow humans - I pray you all will make more effort to do so in the wake of events that intend to incite further hatred.

One of the 3 "acts of hate" that occurred was actually a Constitutionally protected right, but the story is all about how they are to blame. I guess blaming the victim is only ok when the victim is using unapproved content in their speech.

I have no idea about any of that. I'm merely trying to encourage fellow humans not to fall into the trap of propagating more hate, more violence, and more division when reacting to these incidents in their personal, day-to-day lives. 

That, with complete certainty, would be taking the low road. And I see that reaction in people that I know.  I won't succumb to that and I hope that you won't either.  That's all I'm saying. 

I'd rather be some tiny part of a catalyst for remedy than an agent that only serves to worsen an already ugly condition.

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The driver was arrested quickly after the attack, what is really suspicious about him or the car?

Somebody was arrested quickly after the attack.  How do you know it was the driver? 

The vehicle ID for the car owned by James Alex Fields lists a power moonroof.  The car in the crash does not have this.  Also, there's a picture of James Fields standing next to his car.  There are no black stripes on either side of the logo in front.  The crash car has the stripes.  This doesn't prove it's a different car, but they are noted discrepancies.

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I've found it very difficult not to make some comment regarding current events, even though I very rarely do so. I likely won't have anything else to say on the matter beyond this statement.
While I don't expect it to have much effect on this message board, I can't help but beg you all for an effort toward unity in response to acts of hate. Racism is poison. It is deadly to us all. We must endeavor to rid ourselves of it entirely. This is true regardless of your background, geographic location, upbringing, political inclinations, or any other excuse one may invent to look the other way. Whatever you can do to show love and compassion to all of your fellow humans - I pray you all will make more effort to do so in the wake of events that intend to incite further hatred.

One of the 3 "acts of hate" that occurred was actually a Constitutionally protected right, but the story is all about how they are to blame. I guess blaming the victim is only ok when the victim is using unapproved content in their speech.

Ok, I'll be that guy...

Had the police done their [BLEEP] job like real police forces do at highly charged sociopolitical demonstrations, this would be a dialogue instead of a "bleeds, leads" story. That's not to excuse the protestors or the counter-protestors. The protestors message may well be Constitutionally protected, but it's also hate speech. A group of white males with adorable little tiki torches that would make Big Gay Al blush don't take to the streets shouting white supremacist slogans because they want to have an intelligent conversation. They do it because they want to intimidate and enrage, and they were extremely successful in doing so. The counter-protestors escalated things, yes, but it's hardly the first time a counter-protest has happened. How about the counter-protestors who show up every time the WBC rolls out their "God hates [BLEEP]" shtick at a military funeral? Or that time the Foo Fighters had to defuse a WBC counter-protest before their concert by driving out in a pickup truck playing "Never Gonna Give You Up"? Counter-protest is as protected as protest itself is. To restrict counter-protesting rights would be only slightly less American than putting a "free speech zone" next to the dumpster in the alley behind the cafeteria at UF.

There are a lot of reasonable people here, and you're one of them. That's why it worries me to see you, and others here, paying lip service to the dead while defending the actions of what would best be described as a loosely organized hate group. I'm not just calling you out. I'm calling out everyone here on all ends of the spectrum that have turned this board into an echo chamber where every topic devolves into the same "left vs. right, Trump vs. Clinton, racism vs. free speech" garbage. It's a microcosm of this country that we've taken what used to be a civil forum where, even if we disagreed, we'd symbolically shake hands and move on at the end of the thread, then start arguing with each other in the next one. People who routinely made wild, over-the-top accusations or statements used to be fairly rare (yes, I've done it a few times, particularly as it relates to police brutality), limited mostly to threads that Adam2012 happened to piss all over, but it doesn't take much digging in this thread alone to find examples of people that I used to hold in high regard (and still do) tumbling so dramatically down the slope.

Just stop and think about that. There are people in this thread defending a white supremacist march and denouncing the fact that black Americans stood up for themselves. Once upon a time, those roles were reversed, and people cheered for the white supremacists that broke up those black rights protests with firehoses, police dogs and ax handles. Are we really willing to let ourselves go back down that road?

This isn't about blame. [BLEEP] blame. This is about a decision that this country has to make, and we have to make it now. Are we truly the beacon of democracy and leader of the free world, as we've believed ourselves to be since WWII? Or did we never really make it out of the dark ages of the Civil War, and those repressed feelings are boiling over now that those harboring them have someone in office that they think sympathizes with them? I could ask the same question of a growing number of people on this board. If you feel like your voice isn't being heard, there's a right way and a wrong way to express it, and something being Constitutionally protected doesn't make it the right way.

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One of the 3 "acts of hate" that occurred was actually a Constitutionally protected right, but the story is all about how they are to blame. I guess blaming the victim is only ok when the victim is using unapproved content in their speech.

I have no idea about any of that. I'm merely trying to encourage fellow humans not to fall into the trap of propagating more hate, more violence, and more division when reacting to these incidents in their personal, day-to-day lives. 

That, with complete certainty, would be taking the low road. And I see that reaction in people that I know.  I won't succumb to that and I hope that you won't either.  That's all I'm saying. 

I'd rather be some tiny part of a catalyst for remedy than an agent that only serves to worsen an already ugly condition.

I understand and appreciate what I think you are trying to express here.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the way that both you and I see this.

A "rally" was held by a group of white supremacists in a peaceful manner.  Their "cause" or "message" is protected because it's "free speech".  While you and I probably don't agree with the "message", there is nothing that should stop these people from exorcising their right.  I could go on about why their "message" is wrong, but that's a whole other topic.

A group of "counter-protesters" shows up to oppose the "message" of the rally.  Again, these people are doing nothing more than exorcising their right to free speech and are doing nothing wrong.  While I would agree to disagree with the message that the first group is pointing out, I also disagree with what this second group puts out as their "message", that being "white people's opinion doesn't matter" or something of that nature.

You then get a third entity involved, that being the idiot that drove the car into the crowd of "counter-protesters".  This guy was effectively trying to shut down their right to free speech and should be prosecuted.

What eventually ends up happening is that it becomes a black vs. white conflict or something similar.

What you are saying (I think) is that both groups are wrong and we should stop classifying people based on their race and/or color of their skin.  We should just view them as people.  All of us are equal.

Me personally, I try to do my best to live that way.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Also, the airbag did not deploy.

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Had they simply let these fools gather with their little torches, yell a few slogans and then disperse, it would have made mad material for mockery. Laughter rooted in derision is much more effectively humiliating than a knotted head. Now these morons are emboldened.

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I have no idea about any of that. I'm merely trying to encourage fellow humans not to fall into the trap of propagating more hate, more violence, and more division when reacting to these incidents in their personal, day-to-day lives. 

That, with complete certainty, would be taking the low road. And I see that reaction in people that I know.  I won't succumb to that and I hope that you won't either.  That's all I'm saying. 

I'd rather be some tiny part of a catalyst for remedy than an agent that only serves to worsen an already ugly condition.

I understand and appreciate what I think you are trying to express here.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the way that both you and I see this.

A "rally" was held by a group of white supremacists in a peaceful manner.  Their "cause" or "message" is protected because it's "free speech".  While you and I probably don't agree with the "message", there is nothing that should stop these people from exorcising their right.  I could go on about why their "message" is wrong, but that's a whole other topic.

A group of "counter-protesters" shows up to oppose the "message" of the rally.  Again, these people are doing nothing more than exorcising their right to free speech and are doing nothing wrong.  While I would agree to disagree with the message that the first group is pointing out, I also disagree with what this second group puts out as their "message", that being "white people's opinion doesn't matter" or something of that nature.

You then get a third entity involved, that being the idiot that drove the car into the crowd of "counter-protesters".  This guy was effectively trying to shut down their right to free speech and should be prosecuted.

What eventually ends up happening is that it becomes a black vs. white conflict or something similar.

What you are saying (I think) is that both groups are wrong and we should stop classifying people based on their race and/or color of their skin.  We should just view them as people.  All of us are equal.

Me personally, I try to do my best to live that way.

I'm actually not going so far as to call anyone wrong, or classify either group. I'm simply encouraging anyone who will listen not to react by buying into any rhetoric (from any source, left, right or otherwise)  that serves to propagate more hate or more division. 

I'm not in the business of trying to decide what percentage of what group of demonstrators/protestors were out of line, or "wrong."  I'm sure many of them from whichever group were simply exercising their rights peacefully - and I''m sure some were not. (Except clearly the self-proclaimed "new nazi" 20 year old kid that drove into a crowd. We can all agree on that. He wasn't really a third party. Several sources have indicated today he had been proclaiming himself a "new nazi" for a few years now. They interviewed  a couple of his high school teachers who confirmed this. However misled he may be, there was a clear allegience to the group advocating white supremecy)

But I'm really not interested in all that. I'm merely trying to encourage us regular folk to have a measured reaction and not fall prey to some ill-founded line of political outrage designed to get you all swirled up in anger. That won't help anything.  

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They were not blocking traffic, so that statement is false.

You lost all credibility there, PA.  If they were not blocking traffic, the Challenger would have hit.....nothing.  Did you ignore the fact that the crowd was chanting "Our Streets"?  Did you also note that nobody standing on the sidewalk was injured?

That's like saying it's the pedestrians fault when they get hit on the sidewalk because they were blocking "traffic". You can't block traffic when a road is closed to vehicle traffic.

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The crash of a police helicopter with 2 occupants dead is not getting much coverage.  It happened right after the Challenger crash.  There was at least one helicopter in the air just after the car crash but I don't know if that's the same one that hit the ground.  Some are speculating the copter was brought down so the occupants could not witness the switcheroo of the driver as reported by a homeowner at the scene.

2+ hours later is right after?

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Who closed the road? The cops who weren't there? The protesters who had no permit?

We have video proof that the driver's car was attacked BEFORE he accelerated - https://streamable.com/21gc9

We also have proof his car was attacked after he hit the other cars - https://youtu.be/v1HfnX9BGqY

I wonder why the participants of the peaceful march had helmets and baseball bats?

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And why are his brake lights on?

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From an article I read earlier today regarding the reaction of the folks in Berlin, THE Nazi capital back in the day, and how America has no clue what 'white supremacy' can do to a nation if done on the scale it was with Hitler and the 'final solution.' The "concrete and barbed wire" walls are referring to the concentration camps. There is a lot of truth in this statement.

"America has yet to deal with the lessons of our own history. We have never been utterly conquered so that we had to. The lessons of slavery and Jim Crow segregation–all predicated on claims of white supremacy–have yet to be fully learned or even fully acknowledged. Our walls are not made of concrete and barbed wire, but they remain walls."

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Counter protestors fault. Got it. Not the person who took their car and ran over the counter protestors?

They should share some of the blame I would think.  The black panthers hold a rally once every couple months at a new city around the country.  They talk about killing all white people.  One of their leaders Malik Shabazz has this peculiar hatred of Jews for some weird reason (why does it seem like everyone hates the Jews?).  I think it was last year they had a meeting in Charleston and were suggesting that nutjob Dylan Roof was actually in cahoots with the cops so they should go out and kill all the cops.  Obviously these people are completely unhinged.  Completely racist.  Total nutjobs. etc, etc.... but guess what happens at their rallies?  Nothing!  Nobody in the mainsteam media covers it so they get absolutely no attention.  And for whatever reason, anti-racist protesters never seem to bother to show up for these things either.  And again, thats all a good thing because nothing happens.  You get a few hundred pissed off racist black people shouting out loud, nobody pays them any attention, and then they eventually just go home.  And if nobody showed up in charlottesville, and you had a few hundred rednecks wearing their little sheets and doing nazi salutes all by themselves, I'm not sure anything would have happened.

I know I'm farther to the right than most people on the left when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.  I dont believe in limits to free speech.  And I dont believe in limits to freedom of assembly.  I don't care if racist black people get together and say racist things as long as they dont actually impact anyone else.  Same with racist white people.  I don't care.  Now obviously me not caring and me doing nothing about racism doesnt help solve the problem of ending racism.  But on the otherhand, I don't think showing up at their rallies with signs and screaming at them really solves anything either.  And I dont think I'm going out on a limb suggesting that it only makes the situation worse.  Again, these people are already a little unhinged at best.  What the heck is yelling and screaming at them going to do to help?  You think they'll sit there and have a come to jesus moment and be like "you're right, I am racist!  I need to stop!" That's dumb.  It's not helpful.  It only leads to violence.  And sadly it helped lead to a few completely unnecessary deaths.

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________________________________________________
Scouting well is all that matters.  Draft philosophy is all fluff.

One of the 3 "acts of hate" that occurred was actually a Constitutionally protected right, but the story is all about how they are to blame. I guess blaming the victim is only ok when the victim is using unapproved content in their speech.

Ok, I'll be that guy...

Had the police done their [BLEEP] job like real police forces do at highly charged sociopolitical demonstrations, this would be a dialogue instead of a "bleeds, leads" story. That's not to excuse the protestors or the counter-protestors. The protestors message may well be Constitutionally protected, but it's also hate speech. A group of white males with adorable little tiki torches that would make Big Gay Al blush don't take to the streets shouting white supremacist slogans because they want to have an intelligent conversation. They do it because they want to intimidate and enrage, and they were extremely successful in doing so. The counter-protestors escalated things, yes, but it's hardly the first time a counter-protest has happened. How about the counter-protestors who show up every time the WBC rolls out their "God hates [BLEEP]" shtick at a military funeral? Or that time the Foo Fighters had to defuse a WBC counter-protest before their concert by driving out in a pickup truck playing "Never Gonna Give You Up"? Counter-protest is as protected as protest itself is. To restrict counter-protesting rights would be only slightly less American than putting a "free speech zone" next to the dumpster in the alley behind the cafeteria at UF.

There are a lot of reasonable people here, and you're one of them. That's why it worries me to see you, and others here, paying lip service to the dead while defending the actions of what would best be described as a loosely organized hate group. I'm not just calling you out. I'm calling out everyone here on all ends of the spectrum that have turned this board into an echo chamber where every topic devolves into the same "left vs. right, Trump vs. Clinton, racism vs. free speech" garbage. It's a microcosm of this country that we've taken what used to be a civil forum where, even if we disagreed, we'd symbolically shake hands and move on at the end of the thread, then start arguing with each other in the next one. People who routinely made wild, over-the-top accusations or statements used to be fairly rare (yes, I've done it a few times, particularly as it relates to police brutality), limited mostly to threads that Adam2012 happened to piss all over, but it doesn't take much digging in this thread alone to find examples of people that I used to hold in high regard (and still do) tumbling so dramatically down the slope.

Just stop and think about that. There are people in this thread defending a white supremacist march and denouncing the fact that black Americans stood up for themselves. Once upon a time, those roles were reversed, and people cheered for the white supremacists that broke up those black rights protests with firehoses, police dogs and ax handles. Are we really willing to let ourselves go back down that road?

This isn't about blame. [BLEEP] blame. This is about a decision that this country has to make, and we have to make it now. Are we truly the beacon of democracy and leader of the free world, as we've believed ourselves to be since WWII? Or did we never really make it out of the dark ages of the Civil War, and those repressed feelings are boiling over now that those harboring them have someone in office that they think sympathizes with them? I could ask the same question of a growing number of people on this board. If you feel like your voice isn't being heard, there's a right way and a wrong way to express it, and something being Constitutionally protected doesn't make it the right way.

Here's the thing, free speech is protected even if I don't like what they say. When you put in place a system that prevents free speech, especially political speech as this was, just because someone disagrees with it then you have tyranny. Let the dumb [BLEEP] assemble and talk, it's their right. What's not right is when counter-protesters show up and start rioting. I'd say that if it was the Klan, the Black Panthers, the Bernie Bros, the Trumpettes or anyone else. Lose respect for me if you must, but I'm for freedom in every case. Always.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Constitutionally we are all allowed and freely able to speak against whatever we choose to. Even if it's considered 'hate speech' since it may be offensive to one part of the populous but not another. Freedom of speech is just that. However, there is not freedom from the consequences of hate speech as evident by what happened in VA, what's happening in Seattle. People being injured and killed. And for what?

Just because a thing is allowed doesn't make it right. I'm not saying people shouldn't stand up for what they believe is right, I'm saying it can be done without all the hate and discontent which further divides the country which leads to more hate and discontent and so on.

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Well Trump is refusing to denounce the KKK or white nationalist, he cant upset his voter base.

The fact that you call the KKK and white nationalists his voter base is nothing but you trolling and looking to annoy people.  There are every day people that I work with and know that voted for Trump.  Hard working people that work in every aspect within our community.  This is an insulting comment and you should be ashamed of yourself.

This is the easy way out.  Paint everyone that doesn't agree with you as either a racist or white nationalist.  That way if they don't agree with you, you can take the back door and call them a racist.  You're pathetic.

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There were idiots on both sides this week. The biggest idiots of them all were the racists that decided to start the violence, but lets not act like the other side didn't want to initiate the violence over the weekend either. Antifa holds quite a bit of blame as well.

To blame this on Trump is laughable. This group was here long before Trump and will be here after him. Ignorance has faded over time and will hopefully continue to do so, but let these racist idiots go back to where they came from. Don't continue to give them a platform.

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Smells like a false flag.  White supremacists have a permit to assemble in a public park, backed by the ACLU and a judge, but the cops attack their event 30 minutes before it even starts.  Right on cue, the Clinton pal Governor declares a State of Emergency - why?  Black supremacists do not have a permit and are marching in the street blocking traffic, and there isn't a cop around for miles.  What happened to the State of Emergency?  It takes the cops at least 5 minutes to get there after the carnage happens.

We still don't know about the driver, but reddit and /pol have already found a few things suspicious about the car.

Yup.

It's going to come out at some point that this guy wasn't a right winger.  When it does, our lefty baiting friends in this discussion will scurry on to the next "scandal".

What is clear is that there are lunatics on both sides of the political spectrum who are eager to engage in this kind of behavior. The problem with stories like this is that only one side of the spectrum is actually documented by the media. They barely reference the Antifa protesters who were carrying clubs and shields, and were doing their fair share of beating up of the alt-right goons. In fact, Antifa has a pretty distinguished track record for inciting violence, and they actually were teamed up with another terror group that also incites rioting and looting, BLM. Those groups are no more justifiable than the white nationals or the KKK. They are equally reprehensible, and divisive.

The problem here is that the media dedicates their time to trying to connect the white nationalists and KKK to Trump when the reality is quite the opposite. Just because David Duke says they're going to help promote the MAGA agenda doesn't make Trump one of them. If that was the case, then I guess we could say that Obama is a racist because he invited BLM to the White House, and repeatedly refused to dismiss their terrorist actions and rhetoric. He gave the New Black Panthers a free pass in a slam dunk case of voter intimidation after the 2008 election when they had goons in tactical gear and carrying clubs threatening white voters as they tried to enter polling places. The MSM didn't bother with that one either, but Obama's justice department decided to drop all charges. Go figure.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Please note there's a local group called Take Em Down Jax who wants to remove statues and rename buildings, schools, bridges, etc., here in Jacksonville.

I think we should go the other way and find homes here for all the statues taken down in other cities. I wouldn't mind a giant bronze statue in my back yard. Those things last longer than the stuff from Home Depot, and it's less grass I have to mow.

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Please note there's a local group called Take Em Down Jax who wants to remove statues and rename buildings, schools, bridges, etc., here in Jacksonville.  

I think we should go the other way and find homes here for all the statues taken down in other cities.  I wouldn't mind a giant bronze statue in my back yard.  Those things last longer than the stuff from Home Depot, and it's less grass I have to mow.

When the statues are gone, the streets and bridges renamed how long before we have to change the name of the city back to Cowford?

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.