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No need to be Envious of the Colts Deal

#41

(05-09-2018, 03:36 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 03:29 PM)Bullseye Wrote: A month and a half removed from this thread, and two weeks removed from the draft, I thought it would be a good idea to revisit this thread.

Looking at the Colts' draft, did their selections justify the envy given to them?

Did the Colts' draft cause the Colts to close the gap completely between the Colts and the Jaguars?

They were never gonna close the gap completely in one draft but they had one of the best drafts imo.  

They got one of the best guard prospects we have seen. Got another guy in Braden Smith I considered a top 5 guard.  Their line suddenly looks at least average.

Got an intriguing pass rusher in Turay who's fairly similar to Yannick. Racks up pressures.  

Hines and Wilkins two good backs with varied skillsets. Fountain is a v good talent at receiver.  

Another 2/3 drafts like this and they'll catch up. Although to be honest everything still depends on Luck.

Taking off my Jag fan hat for the moment and being a detached football fan, I like what they did for their offensive line.  As it stands now, I think they now have 3/5th, maybe 4/5ths of a solid offensive line.  I have my doubts about Castonzo and their RT.  They should now be able to run the ball effectively, and take some of the pressure off of Luck (and they may need to.  I am not sold at all on Luck's complete return to health.)

I don't like the comparison of Turay to Ngakoue.  Yes, he has good length, but he was not very productive in college, even as a stand up edge rusher in Rutgers' 3-4.  Can he play with his hand on the ground in Indy's 4-3 scheme?  I do like the Darius Leonard pick.  He should add a lot of speed and athleticism to their LBs. 

I think Cain may prove to be a good pick.

You and Pirkster have both said they need another 2-3 drafts like this one to completely close the gap with the Jaguars, and that's with the assumption Luck is capable of playing at a good level.

Let me ask both of you this.  I realize it's early, but in your estimation, is there a trio in the Colts draft class comparable in quality to our 2016 draft haul of Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue?
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#42

(05-09-2018, 06:25 PM)Bullseye Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 03:36 PM)JackCity Wrote: They were never gonna close the gap completely in one draft but they had one of the best drafts imo.  

They got one of the best guard prospects we have seen. Got another guy in Braden Smith I considered a top 5 guard.  Their line suddenly looks at least average.

Got an intriguing pass rusher in Turay who's fairly similar to Yannick. Racks up pressures.  

Hines and Wilkins two good backs with varied skillsets. Fountain is a v good talent at receiver.  

Another 2/3 drafts like this and they'll catch up. Although to be honest everything still depends on Luck.

Taking off my Jag fan hat for the moment and being a detached football fan, I like what they did for their offensive line.  As it stands now, I think they now have 3/5th, maybe 4/5ths of a solid offensive line.  I have my doubts about Castonzo and their RT.  They should now be able to run the ball effectively, and take some of the pressure off of Luck (and they may need to.  I am not sold at all on Luck's complete return to health.)

I don't like the comparison of Turay to Ngakoue.  Yes, he has good length, but he was not very productive in college, even as a stand up edge rusher in Rutgers' 3-4.  Can he play with his hand on the ground in Indy's 4-3 scheme?  I do like the Darius Leonard pick.  He should add a lot of speed and athleticism to their LBs. 

I think Cain may prove to be a good pick.

You and Pirkster have both said they need another 2-3 drafts like this one to completely close the gap with the Jaguars, and that's with the assumption Luck is capable of playing at a good level.

Let me ask both of you this.  I realize it's early, but in your estimation, is there a trio in the Colts draft class comparable in quality to our 2016 draft haul of Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue?
 
Turay and Yannick is more a style wise comparison. Both are very flexible edge benders with unique but effective styles. Turay had a weird college career and suffered badly from injuries but when he was on the field he was a demon for creating pressure, even if his sack numbers aren't large. He'll play DE for Indy.    

No as good as Nelson is he will never have the impact Ramsey. Leonard could be like Jack but I doubt it. Turay probably won't be as good as Yannick either.   

They have a mountain of cap space over the next few years so paired with another 2/3 drafts they will eventually catch up to the division talent wise. Ballard knows what he's doing.
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#43

(05-09-2018, 06:25 PM)Bullseye Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 03:36 PM)JackCity Wrote: They were never gonna close the gap completely in one draft but they had one of the best drafts imo.  

They got one of the best guard prospects we have seen. Got another guy in Braden Smith I considered a top 5 guard.  Their line suddenly looks at least average.

Got an intriguing pass rusher in Turay who's fairly similar to Yannick. Racks up pressures.  

Hines and Wilkins two good backs with varied skillsets. Fountain is a v good talent at receiver.  

Another 2/3 drafts like this and they'll catch up. Although to be honest everything still depends on Luck.

Taking off my Jag fan hat for the moment and being a detached football fan, I like what they did for their offensive line.  As it stands now, I think they now have 3/5th, maybe 4/5ths of a solid offensive line.  I have my doubts about Castonzo and their RT.  They should now be able to run the ball effectively, and take some of the pressure off of Luck (and they may need to.  I am not sold at all on Luck's complete return to health.)

I don't like the comparison of Turay to Ngakoue.  Yes, he has good length, but he was not very productive in college, even as a stand up edge rusher in Rutgers' 3-4.  Can he play with his hand on the ground in Indy's 4-3 scheme?  I do like the Darius Leonard pick.  He should add a lot of speed and athleticism to their LBs. 

I think Cain may prove to be a good pick.

You and Pirkster have both said they need another 2-3 drafts like this one to completely close the gap with the Jaguars, and that's with the assumption Luck is capable of playing at a good level.

Let me ask both of you this.  I realize it's early, but in your estimation, is there a trio in the Colts draft class comparable in quality to our 2016 draft haul of Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue?

I think Nelson can be one of the league's top OG in a short time like Ramsey is at CB.  CB is a more important position...

Leonard has the ability to be a Myles Jack but does he get a year to learn like Myles did before he really began to shine?

While I don't think they will hit on something as well as Yannick has produced they have Smith, Turay, Cain and Lewis that could become serviceable starters.
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#44

I agree that I don't think they have a Yannick, Telvin, or Ramsey from this class.

But their guards should be special (at least Nelson, but having two very good starters will reward them.)
They have much needed help at LB and pass rush.

I think they'll get also production from Cain, which was a value.

I think they got a lot of bang for their buck.

I also believe it will still all depend on Luck. I'm getting the feeling he's not going to be the QB he was. That's quite a lot of time to miss, and a lot of time was played while injured. Hard not to imagine there isn't permanent damage of some sort. I think if he gets back he'll be as effective as he was, but perhaps not as capable. It's been a long time since he completed a pass (Jan. 1 2017 vs Jaguars.)
"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."
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#45

AND even if Luck does somehow come back "healthy". Can he survive against our defense, the Texans defense and the titans defense 6 times this year? I'd be skeptical of that too.

If his arm ends up like Chad Penningtons it's pretty much over for him. A QB with bad accuracy, turnover prone and a weak arm isn't worth a whole lot. Even with the pedigree and IQ of Luck. Pennington at least was very accurate.
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#46

(03-17-2018, 05:17 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: The thing about the Jaguars that makes me wish they would have traded back more often is they've so often seemed to reach for guys they could have had later, (or a player of equal or greater ability, in my opinion) or who were questionable for the spot they were taken in.

The Fournette pick last season epitomizes it to me. He's a talented running back, but the two highest performing backs in the draft weren't even taken on the first day of the draft. Imagine if the Jaguars had traded back with the Panthers and gotten Lattimore in the first instead of Fournette, the Panthers' second round pick last year and this year, maybe even more, and taken someone like Hunt with one of those second round picks last year.

The Jaguars wouldn't have cared about keeping Colvin, would have had a running back that looks to perform, had at least an extra second rounder this year, and have a secondary for the ages right now.

2016 draft everything came together to allow the Jaguars to get Ramsey and Jack, but in 2015 they reached for Fowler, and arguably did the same in 2014 for Bortles.

The draft is all about value and if you're not 100% sure you're getting a great player in a slot then if you can great value for the pick you should be taking the value.

Your "imagine topic" is no good. Heres why.

Just because Hunt ran for 1500 yards for the Chiefs, doesnt mean he would have automatically ran for 1500 with the Jags.

If you look at the player individually, Fournette graded out higher than Hunt. Which is why Fournette was chosen in round 1.

Fournette could have gone to the Chiefs and ran for 5370 yards. But we will never know. 

Hunt could come to the Jags and run for 800 yards.

Hunt was not graded as highly as Fournette. 

Also look at Tackle Telvin Smith. Why didnt the Jags chose him in the 2nd round. The argument could go both ways. 

Just my opin.
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#47

(05-14-2018, 03:49 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote:
(03-17-2018, 05:17 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: The thing about the Jaguars that makes me wish they would have traded back more often is they've so often seemed to reach for guys they could have had later, (or a player of equal or greater ability, in my opinion) or who were questionable for the spot they were taken in.

The Fournette pick last season epitomizes it to me. He's a talented running back, but the two highest performing backs in the draft weren't even taken on the first day of the draft. Imagine if the Jaguars had traded back with the Panthers and gotten Lattimore in the first instead of Fournette, the Panthers' second round pick last year and this year, maybe even more, and taken someone like Hunt with one of those second round picks last year.

The Jaguars wouldn't have cared about keeping Colvin, would have had a running back that looks to perform, had at least an extra second rounder this year, and have a secondary for the ages right now.

2016 draft everything came together to allow the Jaguars to get Ramsey and Jack, but in 2015 they reached for Fowler, and arguably did the same in 2014 for Bortles.

The draft is all about value and if you're not 100% sure you're getting a great player in a slot then if you can great value for the pick you should be taking the value.

Your "imagine topic" is no good. Heres why.

Just because Hunt ran for 1500 yards for the Chiefs, doesnt mean he would have automatically ran for 1500 with the Jags.

If you look at the player individually, Fournette graded out higher than Hunt. Which is why Fournette was chosen in round 1.

Fournette could have gone to the Chiefs and ran for 5370 yards. But we will never know. 

Hunt could come to the Jags and run for 800 yards.

Hunt was not graded as highly as Fournette. 

Also look at Tackle Telvin Smith. Why didnt the Jags chose him in the 2nd round. The argument could go both ways. 

Just my opin.

Tackle Telvin Smith?
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#48

(05-09-2018, 06:25 PM)Bullseye Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 03:36 PM)JackCity Wrote: They were never gonna close the gap completely in one draft but they had one of the best drafts imo.  

They got one of the best guard prospects we have seen. Got another guy in Braden Smith I considered a top 5 guard.  Their line suddenly looks at least average.

Got an intriguing pass rusher in Turay who's fairly similar to Yannick. Racks up pressures.  

Hines and Wilkins two good backs with varied skillsets. Fountain is a v good talent at receiver.  

Another 2/3 drafts like this and they'll catch up. Although to be honest everything still depends on Luck.

Taking off my Jag fan hat for the moment and being a detached football fan, I like what they did for their offensive line.  As it stands now, I think they now have 3/5th, maybe 4/5ths of a solid offensive line.  I have my doubts about Castonzo and their RT.  They should now be able to run the ball effectively, and take some of the pressure off of Luck (and they may need to.  I am not sold at all on Luck's complete return to health.)

I don't like the comparison of Turay to Ngakoue.  Yes, he has good length, but he was not very productive in college, even as a stand up edge rusher in Rutgers' 3-4.  Can he play with his hand on the ground in Indy's 4-3 scheme?  I do like the Darius Leonard pick.  He should add a lot of speed and athleticism to their LBs. 

I think Cain may prove to be a good pick.

You and Pirkster have both said they need another 2-3 drafts like this one to completely close the gap with the Jaguars, and that's with the assumption Luck is capable of playing at a good level.

Let me ask both of you this.  I realize it's early, but in your estimation, is there a trio in the Colts draft class comparable in quality to our 2016 draft haul of Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue?

That's really an unfair comparison. Excluding the windfall of a top franchise QB, there are very few drafts that result in three players comparable to the Jags 2016 draft. I do think the clots draft class will be better than the Jags 2015 draft, and it's hard to end up worse than the 2013 draft.



                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"
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#49

(05-20-2018, 10:43 PM)MalabarJag Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 06:25 PM)Bullseye Wrote: Taking off my Jag fan hat for the moment and being a detached football fan, I like what they did for their offensive line.  As it stands now, I think they now have 3/5th, maybe 4/5ths of a solid offensive line.  I have my doubts about Castonzo and their RT.  They should now be able to run the ball effectively, and take some of the pressure off of Luck (and they may need to.  I am not sold at all on Luck's complete return to health.)

I don't like the comparison of Turay to Ngakoue.  Yes, he has good length, but he was not very productive in college, even as a stand up edge rusher in Rutgers' 3-4.  Can he play with his hand on the ground in Indy's 4-3 scheme?  I do like the Darius Leonard pick.  He should add a lot of speed and athleticism to their LBs. 

I think Cain may prove to be a good pick.

You and Pirkster have both said they need another 2-3 drafts like this one to completely close the gap with the Jaguars, and that's with the assumption Luck is capable of playing at a good level.

Let me ask both of you this.  I realize it's early, but in your estimation, is there a trio in the Colts draft class comparable in quality to our 2016 draft haul of Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue?

That's really an unfair comparison. Excluding the windfall of a top franchise QB, there are very few drafts that result in three players comparable to the Jags 2016 draft. I do think the clots draft class will be better than the Jags 2015 draft, and it's hard to end up worse than the 2013 draft.

Is it an unfair comparison?

The tacit premise of those who lament the Jaguars not trading back is that trading back and accumulating more picks puts the team that trades back (in this case the Colts) in a better position to accumulate talent than the team that doesn't (the Jaguars).

I have maintained in two different threads that trading back does not guarantee a talent windfall for teams that do so, and in most cases, trading back and accumulating a bunch of picks does not result in juggernaut teams.

The Jaguars did not trade back and accumulate a bunch of picks in 2016 and got what amounts to a single draft full of defensive triplets-Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue.

History has shown the Rams (twice), Browns (at least twice), and tacks have traded back with these monster deals and did not accumulate a draft class comparable to those 2016 Jaguars that didn't trade back.

This year, it was the Colts' turn.  While I think they helped themselves, I don't think at this admittedly early stage this 2018 Colts draft class, even with the trade back, compares to that 2016 Jaguars draft class.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#50

(05-21-2018, 09:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote: This year, it was the Colts' turn.  While I think they helped themselves, I don't think at this admittedly early stage this 2018 Colts draft class, even with the trade back, compares to that 2016 Jaguars draft class.

Here's the thing to me about the 2018 Indianapolis draft class, and this is understanding that the class has yet to have a live practice, much less even play a down of NFL football; They picked two Guards with their top three picks.

Now, I am as much of a fan and maybe even more, of the O-line but there is still a limited amount of impact that a Guard can have on a team. I would be jaw-droppingly, slouch-faced stunned if Quenton Nelson impacts a game as much as Jalen Ramsey.
I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!
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#51

(05-21-2018, 09:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote: The Jaguars did not trade back and accumulate a bunch of picks in 2016 and got what amounts to a single draft full of defensive triplets-Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue.

No one is lamenting passing on a trade down when there is as blue chip of a prospect as Ramsey available, and with such a drastic talent drop off after him too. Obviously in that circumstance you say no.

But Dave said he got offers to trade down in all of the Bortles, Fowler, and Fournette drafts (I can't remember any quotes about it from the Joeckel draft) and passed on them. In any of those cases it was pretty clear even at the time that none of them were can't miss blue chippers or that the fall off if you could trade down would be very steep, if at all. We can lament passing on those types of trade down offers for more pulls on the slot machine.
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#52
(This post was last modified: 05-27-2018, 08:27 AM by Bullseye.)

(05-25-2018, 10:27 PM)Upper Wrote:
(05-21-2018, 09:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote: The Jaguars did not trade back and accumulate a bunch of picks in 2016 and got what amounts to a single draft full of defensive triplets-Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue.

No one is lamenting passing on a trade down when there is as blue chip of a prospect as Ramsey available, and with such a drastic talent drop off after him too. Obviously in that circumstance you say no.

But Dave said he got offers to trade down in all of the Bortles, Fowler, and Fournette drafts (I can't remember any quotes about it from the Joeckel draft) and passed on them. In any of those cases it was pretty clear even at the time that none of them were can't miss blue chippers or that the fall off if you could trade down would be very steep, if at all. We can lament passing on those types of trade down offers for more pulls on the slot machine.

People have lamented the lack of trading down period.  Most did not draw the distinction between the draft where there is blue chip talent available and not.

But interestingly, your closing paragraph betrays the premise behind the first.

Who is to say Bortles, Fowler or Fournette were not blue chip caliber players when they were drafted?  The overwhelming majority of mock drafts prior to those respective drafts had at least Fowler and Fournette as top 5-10 picks.  All of them have had success since entering the league.

Bortles has Jaguars team records TD passes thrown in a season, and took the Jaguars to within 2:37 of the Super Bowl.  He didn't turn the ball over in any of those three playoff games.  When you draft a QB at the top of the draft, you want your team contending with him by his fourth year.  Mission accomplished.      Counting the playoffs, Fowler recorded ten sacks last season, including two sacks in the AFC championship game all playing a part time role. Considering he has Calais Campbell in front of him, him being a reserve is not an indictment against him.  He could start for many teams. Fournette missed a game due to suspension, was hobbled by a bad ankle in a few other games, and faced eight man boxes a ton, and still rushed for over 1000 yards, including a 100+ yard game in the playoffs against the Steelers and scored a TD against the Patriots.  You want your players, especially top 5 draft picks, to have success in January when it counts the most.

I'm not sure how you can say these guys weren't blue chippers when they were drafted, or otherwise insinuate they were unworthy of the spots in which they were selected.  All three have been productive players, helped get the team into the playoffs, and performed well in the playoffs once they got there.

(05-24-2018, 12:57 PM)Deacon Wrote:
(05-21-2018, 09:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote: This year, it was the Colts' turn.  While I think they helped themselves, I don't think at this admittedly early stage this 2018 Colts draft class, even with the trade back, compares to that 2016 Jaguars draft class.

Here's the thing to me about the 2018 Indianapolis draft class, and this is understanding that the class has yet to have a live practice, much less even play a down of NFL football; They picked two Guards with their top three picks.

Now, I am as much of a fan and maybe even more, of the O-line but there is still a limited amount of impact that a Guard can have on a team. I would be jaw-droppingly, slouch-faced stunned if Quenton Nelson impacts a game as much as Jalen Ramsey.

So in light of the above, why aren't the selections of guards in such high positions held against the Colts?

I remember when the Saints drafted Naoele in the top ten, and people trashed them for it.

Does the fact they traded back three spots at the top of the first somehow negate that unwritten rule of drafting?
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#53
(This post was last modified: 05-27-2018, 10:32 AM by Upper.)

(05-27-2018, 08:24 AM)Bullseye Wrote: I'm not sure how you can say these guys weren't blue chippers when they were drafted, or otherwise insinuate they were unworthy of the spots in which they were selected.  All three have been productive players, helped get the team into the playoffs, and performed well in the playoffs once they got there.

Because with all 3 of them you can insert random average player in their shoes and the team would have done just as well or better. I do not think any of them were truly difference makers on our team last year.

Bortles was exactly average last year, Fowler was below average (I do not care much about fluky sack totals, his pressures/run grade/penalties/etc were all bad), and Fournette was pretty much exactly average too. Toss in a random QB and some other same position draft prospects we could have had a little later like Beasley and McCaffrey (not even going to go to the later round beasts like Kamara or Hunt) and we're every bit as good, or I think significantly better. Ramsey you cannot say that about whatsoever, obviously.
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#54

(05-27-2018, 10:28 AM)Upper Wrote:
(05-27-2018, 08:24 AM)Bullseye Wrote: I'm not sure how you can say these guys weren't blue chippers when they were drafted, or otherwise insinuate they were unworthy of the spots in which they were selected.  All three have been productive players, helped get the team into the playoffs, and performed well in the playoffs once they got there.

Because with all 3 of them you can insert random average player in their shoes and the team would have done just as well or better. I do not think any of them were truly difference makers on our team last year.

Bortles was exactly average last year, Fowler was below average (I do not care much about fluky sack totals, his pressures/run grade/penalties/etc were all bad), and Fournette was pretty much exactly average too. Toss in a random QB and some other same position draft prospects we could have had a little later like Beasley and McCaffrey (not even going to go to the later round beasts like Kamara or Hunt) and we're every bit as good, or I think significantly better. Ramsey you cannot say that about whatsoever, obviously.

How can you say any random player could do what Fowler did last year, then completely disregard the stats that made him above average?

Random player-Tyson Alualu.  Has he ever had the impact Fowler had last year?  He played on the Steelers last year, a team that led the league in sacks.  He was a part time player.  He had exactly half of Fowler's sack totals, excluding the playoffs.

Random player-Kevin Dodd.  Has he come close to the impact Fowler had last year?  Nope.  He too played on a good defense, and had only one sack.

Random player-Shaq Lawson.  He started 10 games for a playoff team.  He had four sacks.

Random player-Jadeveon Clowney.  He started 16 games and got 9.5 sacks.  He could replicate Fowler's totals.

As for Fournette...PLEASE go to the later rounds.  Kamara and Hunt did not face anywhere NEAR the 8 man fronts that Fournette faced.  That's not just about the QBs.  The Saints and Chiefs had established and legitimate skill position threats outside of QB and RB to warrant defensive attention.

Bortles was seen by multiple teams as a blue chip prospect.  Houston was documented as Bortles being their alternative for the #1 overall pick in 2014, and they have drafted pretty decently.  As it stands, he has the Jaguars single season record for TD passes in a year, and took the Jaguars to thee AFC Championship game.  While his game against Buffalo was forgettable, his performances against the Steelers and the Patriots were largely beyond reproach.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#55

I actually think every single one of those players could have done what Fowler did if you surround him with 3-4 pro bowlers on the dline to garner attention and drape them with the best secondary in the game. I think his meager and far more predictive pressure total points to that. He wasn't creating much of the havoc, but if someone else on the dline could cause a ruckus or if the secondary could give him 4+ seconds to fight through it then he could clean up. That was most of his sack total, and I think any of the guys you mentioned would have done the same or better in the same situation.

Fournette faced 8 men in the box more than anyone else because we ran 9 men in the box more than anyone else first. It wasn't because teams were scared of Fournette, it's because we mathematically forced them to. When we ran 11 personnel there weren't 8 in the box. Magic, I know. If you want more evidence, Chris Ivory faced 8 in the box on a higher percentage than Fournette. It sure as hell wasn't because teams were just mortified of Ivory. Mike Gillislee led the entire NFL in 8+D%. Were teams so terrified that Gillislee was going to punish them that they left their secondary exposed to some scrub named Tom Brady? Of course not, it's just math.

Bortles, well, I've posted his rate stats many times because they are infinitely better than quoting that he had 35 TDs 3 years ago. He was barely above or barely below average in all of Y/A, ANY/A, TD%, INT%, and passer rating...and then significantly below average in comp% and significantly above average in sack%. Any number of other average QBs, like say Josh McCown, could have done that last year.

Seriously, you replace those 3 with Josh McCown, Kevin Dodd, and Christian McCaffrey and our team does just as well last year. No doubt in my mind.
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#56

(05-28-2018, 08:17 PM)Upper Wrote: ...

Fournette faced 8 men in the box more than anyone else because we ran 9 men in the box more than anyone else first. It wasn't because teams were scared of Fournette, it's because we mathematically forced them to. When we ran 11 personnel there weren't 8 in the box. Magic, I know. If you want more evidence, Chris Ivory faced 8 in the box on a higher percentage than Fournette. It sure as hell wasn't because teams were just mortified of Ivory. ...

Yep. I feel like I've been saying this until blue in face around here. Thanks for adding more facts to support it. 

The Jags' choice of run formations forced the loaded box.  When they added receivers to the formation, teams unloaded pretty commonly.  Seemed like bunch and trips formations (predictably) were especially effective in backing teams out of the box. 
In year two of a Hackett offense, I expect to see more usage of that.  Lots of ways to be creative from that set - and Hackett has shown a fondness for running multiple permutations of a play while giving the defense the trap of a familiar look.
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#57
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2018, 09:47 AM by Deacon. Edit Reason: persnicketyness )

(05-27-2018, 08:24 AM)Bullseye Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 10:27 PM)Upper Wrote: ...

...

(05-24-2018, 12:57 PM)Deacon Wrote: Here's the thing to me about the 2018 Indianapolis draft class, and this is understanding that the class has yet to have a live practice, much less even play a down of NFL football; They picked two Guards with their top three picks.

Now, I am as much of a fan and maybe even more, of the O-line but there is still a limited amount of impact that a Guard can have on a team. I would be jaw-droppingly, slouch-faced stunned if Quenton Nelson impacts a game as much as Jalen Ramsey.

So in light of the above, why aren't the selections of guards in such high positions held against the Colts?

I remember when the Saints drafted Naoele in the top ten, and people trashed them for it.

Does the fact they traded back three spots at the top of the first somehow negate that unwritten rule of drafting?

To me, those selections should be held against them, and I'm not certain why this is not the case unless this draft was woefully slim outside of QB and Guard. Honestly, I think a lot of why Indianapolis doesn't get trashed is that the gleam of their past success still blinds a few. Then again, I thought Adam Carriker was going to be an All Pro, so what do I know?

(06-04-2018, 11:36 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 08:17 PM)Upper Wrote: ...

Yep. I feel like I've been saying this until blue in face around here. Thanks for adding more facts to support it. 

The Jags' choice of run formations forced the loaded box.  When they added receivers to the formation, teams unloaded pretty commonly.  Seemed like bunch and trips formations (predictably) were especially effective in backing teams out of the box. 
In year two of a Hackett offense, I expect to see more usage of that.  Lots of ways to be creative from that set - and Hackett has shown a fondness for running multiple permutations of a play while giving the defense the trap of a familiar look.

I would love to sit down with Hackett for just 30 minutes and ask him about formation flexibility, because it certainly did not seem like his offense had a lot of it. Even in 21 personnel, you can still force the defense to choose what you are going to defend.
I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!
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#58

(06-05-2018, 09:44 AM)Deacon Wrote:
(05-27-2018, 08:24 AM)Bullseye Wrote: ...



(06-04-2018, 11:36 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: Yep. I feel like I've been saying this until blue in face around here. Thanks for adding more facts to support it. 

The Jags' choice of run formations forced the loaded box.  When they added receivers to the formation, teams unloaded pretty commonly.  Seemed like bunch and trips formations (predictably) were especially effective in backing teams out of the box. 
In year two of a Hackett offense, I expect to see more usage of that.  Lots of ways to be creative from that set - and Hackett has shown a fondness for running multiple permutations of a play while giving the defense the trap of a familiar look.

I would love to sit down with Hackett for just 30 minutes and ask him about formation flexibility, because it certainly did not seem like his offense had a lot of it. Even in 21 personnel, you can still force the defense to choose what you are going to defend.

Right, but they just ran it up the middle on 90% of the plays from that set. They showed very little creativity from that formation and in the run game in general much of the year.  I think that will see some tweaking this season. 
I wish they had forced the defense to consider the TE as a receiver more often in those situations last year. Maybe with ASJ - they will.

Hackett did show creativity from a number of his three-wide sets last year by spreading the ball around a lot to several targets, and by running variations of the same play dependant upon/in-reaction to defensive formation - often to good results.
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#59

(06-05-2018, 11:02 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 09:44 AM)Deacon Wrote:

I would love to sit down with Hackett for just 30 minutes and ask him about formation flexibility, because it certainly did not seem like his offense had a lot of it. Even in 21 personnel, you can still force the defense to choose what you are going to defend.

Right, but they just ran it up the middle on 90% of the plays from that set. They showed very little creativity from that formation and in the run game in general much of the year.  I think that will see some tweaking this season. 
I wish they had forced the defense to consider the TE as a receiver more often in those situations last year.  Maybe with ASJ - they will.

Hackett did show creativity from a number of his three-wide sets last year by spreading the ball around a lot to several targets, and by running variations of the same play dependant upon/in-reaction to defensive formation - often to good results.

I remember specifically in the Baltimore game, they did just that. Lewis was aligned tight to the formation, then motioned out wide pre-snap. This forced the Defense to cover him with a CB and the play resulted in a TD. To my knowledge, they did not try this formation-play combo again.
I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!
Reply

#60

(06-04-2018, 11:36 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 08:17 PM)Upper Wrote: ...

Fournette faced 8 men in the box more than anyone else because we ran 9 men in the box more than anyone else first. It wasn't because teams were scared of Fournette, it's because we mathematically forced them to. When we ran 11 personnel there weren't 8 in the box. Magic, I know. If you want more evidence, Chris Ivory faced 8 in the box on a higher percentage than Fournette. It sure as hell wasn't because teams were just mortified of Ivory. ...

Yep. I feel like I've been saying this until blue in face around here. Thanks for adding more facts to support it. 

The Jags' choice of run formations forced the loaded box.  When they added receivers to the formation, teams unloaded pretty commonly.  Seemed like bunch and trips formations (predictably) were especially effective in backing teams out of the box. 
In year two of a Hackett offense, I expect to see more usage of that.  Lots of ways to be creative from that set - and Hackett has shown a fondness for running multiple permutations of a play while giving the defense the trap of a familiar look.

Irrespective of the reasons, Fournette played against more 8-9 in the box than the other rookie backs, and it impacted his productivity.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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