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Marquise Lee update

#41

(03-28-2019, 10:19 PM)jagshype Wrote:
(03-28-2019, 09:44 PM)Upper Wrote: I think y'all are both underestimating just how bad Lee's knee injury was, and also overestimating how much of an impact he has/will have even if he does get to 100%. Lee is pretty much the textbook definition of just a guy.

What overestimation do you speak of? No ones saying hes an all star pro bowler top 10 blah blah blah
I mean he put up 700 and 850 on some poor pass offenses.
Pretty reasonable to expect an uptick IF healthy to 1000 yards.

I think he gets that just from sheer volume /targets with only Dede being the other decent target for now. Just needs to stay healthy and be a consistent target for Foles. Doesnt have to be anything special.

This
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#42

(03-27-2019, 05:42 PM)Firesky Wrote:
(03-26-2019, 09:36 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: 2016

2017

This. People for whatever reason only seem to recall him being hurt back in 2014 and 2015. because he didn't "start" in 2016 people forget that he played all 16 games. And in 2017 despite starting 14 games, all people remember are the 2 games missed due to injury.

His ACL tear was SOOOOOO not his fault. A rookie DB not wanting to get flagged for the asinine new helmet to helmet penalties went low (unneccessarily and in a preseason game) and it cost Lee the entire season. Jalen even tweeted something out about how Lee's injury was on the rulemakers.

Lee's health is far from my concern, aside from fans with alzheimer's he's shed the albino tiger label. If he can eliminate the drops he'll be an excellent receiver for us this year. we REALLY missed him on 3rd downs last year, he'll crack 1,000 with Foles at the helm if he's full go for week 1.

His route running is more of an issue than the drops, he doesn't consistently get open on anything but crossers which are the easiest route to get open on
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#43

(03-29-2019, 08:37 AM)Rockman1966 Wrote: Let me preface this by making it clear this was two months ago.  Saw Lee in a local business getting a cryotherapy treatment.  Full knee immobilizer, but walking on his own, albiet with a limp.  His knee was still quite swollen.
While physical rehab is tortuous, it's the mental aspect of an ACL that is the most challenging.  Everyone who's torn an ACL has a fear of a set-back during rehab.  To have 100% confidence in that knee takes the longest time to recover.
I hope plays this year, I really do.  I think it's going to be awhile until he's back to where he was.....

I think this it to be expected. Especially when you have 2 out of 4 ligaments in your knee repaired.
"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."
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#44

(03-28-2019, 10:19 PM)jagshype Wrote:
(03-28-2019, 09:44 PM)Upper Wrote: I think y'all are both underestimating just how bad Lee's knee injury was, and also overestimating how much of an impact he has/will have even if he does get to 100%. Lee is pretty much the textbook definition of just a guy.

What overestimation do you speak of? No ones saying hes an all star pro bowler top 10 blah blah blah
I mean he put up 700 and 850 on some poor pass offenses.
Pretty reasonable to expect an uptick IF healthy to 1000 yards.

I think he gets that just from sheer volume /targets with only Dede being the other decent target for now. Just needs to stay healthy and be a consistent target for Foles. Doesnt have to be anything special.

You just said it's reasonable to expect a guy coming off a catastrophic knee injury to have a career best in yards by 15%. Not to mention his career high in TDs is a whopping 3.

I would call that an overestimation of fair expectations.
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#45

(03-28-2019, 09:44 PM)Upper Wrote: I think y'all are both underestimating just how bad Lee's knee injury was, and also overestimating how much of an impact he has/will have even if he does get to 100%. Lee is pretty much the textbook definition of just a guy.


(03-29-2019, 05:36 PM)Upper Wrote:
(03-28-2019, 10:19 PM)jagshype Wrote: What overestimation do you speak of? No ones saying hes an all star pro bowler top 10 blah blah blah
I mean he put up 700 and 850 on some poor pass offenses.
Pretty reasonable to expect an uptick IF healthy to 1000 yards.

I think he gets that just from sheer volume /targets with only Dede being the other decent target for now. Just needs to stay healthy and be a consistent target for Foles. Doesnt have to be anything special.

You just said it's reasonable to expect a guy coming off a catastrophic knee injury to have a career best in yards by 15%. Not to mention his career high in TDs is a whopping 3.

I would call that an overestimation of fair expectations.

Well obviously he wont produce the way he is expected let alone an uptick if he's not 100%. But since you said even at 100% that there is an overestimation.
I'm stating with a qualified if hes he at 100%, its reasonable to expect an uptick in stats. You say otherwise regardless of health. I even stated why I think Lee gets a performance uptick.

The question is, can he get to 100% with that catastrophic knee injury?
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#47

I think Lee is the #3 or 4 WR at best at this point anyway. Whatever we get from him will be more than expected, imo.

Chark, Westbrook, and Conley will be the bigger contributors imo.
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#48

(03-29-2019, 09:45 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(03-27-2019, 05:42 PM)Firesky Wrote: This. People for whatever reason only seem to recall him being hurt back in 2014 and 2015. because he didn't "start" in 2016 people forget that he played all 16 games. And in 2017 despite starting 14 games, all people remember are the 2 games missed due to injury.

His ACL tear was SOOOOOO not his fault. A rookie DB not wanting to get flagged for the asinine new helmet to helmet penalties went low (unneccessarily and in a preseason game) and it cost Lee the entire season. Jalen even tweeted something out about how Lee's injury was on the rulemakers.

Lee's health is far from my concern, aside from fans with alzheimer's he's shed the albino tiger label. If he can eliminate the drops he'll be an excellent receiver for us this year. we REALLY missed him on 3rd downs last year, he'll crack 1,000 with Foles at the helm if he's full go for week 1.

His route running is more of an issue than the drops, he doesn't consistently get open on anything but crossers which are the easiest route to get open on

In fairness they didn't call too many plays asking him to do much else. He got open on slants, outs, drags and hitches but Bortles didn't have the timing to hit most of those (especially the out or "pick 6 route" as i would call it). Also I disagree that crossers are the "easiest" route to seperate on, and i believe i read somewhere that he had the highest success rate on crossing routes of any receiver not named Antonio Brown during the 2017 season. Maybe he's just REALLY good at that one specific route/role.
Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
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#49

(03-28-2019, 09:44 PM)Upper Wrote: I think y'all are both underestimating just how bad Lee's knee injury was, and also overestimating how much of an impact he has/will have even if he does get to 100%. Lee is pretty much the textbook definition of just a guy.


Ah, maybe that's what happened. That is, someone told Caldwell that Lee is a perfect example of a JAG, but Caldwell thought he meant "of a Jaguar" and that's why he currently has a $9 mil cap hit we can't even get rid of by cutting him.
'02
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#50

I think Lee probably won't be near 100% until October. Will probably miss a handful of games.

When he gets on the field however, I fully expect that DeFilippo and Foles will be good for his production.
I'd not be surprised at all to see Lee rack up 700 yards and and 5 TDs in 11 or 12 games.

I still find the hate for this guy to be silly. He's no special talent, but he's a good Z receiver that can be a productive part of the overall corps.
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#51

(05-22-2019, 09:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I think Lee probably won't be near 100% until October.  Will probably miss a handful of games.

When he gets on the field however, I fully expect that DeFilippo and Foles will be good for his production.  
I'd not be surprised at all to see Lee rack up 700 yards and and 5 TDs in 11 or 12 games.

I still find the hate for this guy to be silly.  He's no special talent, but he's a good Z receiver that can be a productive part of the overall corps.

Hmm... Where's the hate? It's just that he hasn't shown much and is now older and yet another injury added to his list.

It happens. Talented guy that just couldn't ever get it to pan out in the pros, whether due to injury or QB woes when healthy. I'm not saying he's done or anything like that but I fail to see how anything Lee has done up to now should have anyone feeling better than 'meh' on him?

I think if Chark and Westbrook are the future, Lee and Conley make for very solid 3 and 4 options.
Granted both Chark and Westbrook need to take that next step from promising to producing.... Otherwise our WR group will just be 'meh' overall.

If Lee misses 4 games and still gets 700 yards I'll be most pleasantly surprised.
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#52
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2019, 04:03 PM by JackCity.)

I don't think he gets hate for anything other than being very meh. He doesn't have many routes he runs well and has inconsistent hands. Dime a dozen
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#53

(05-22-2019, 03:53 PM)Kane Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 09:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I think Lee probably won't be near 100% until October.  Will probably miss a handful of games.

When he gets on the field however, I fully expect that DeFilippo and Foles will be good for his production.  
I'd not be surprised at all to see Lee rack up 700 yards and and 5 TDs in 11 or 12 games.

I still find the hate for this guy to be silly.  He's no special talent, but he's a good Z receiver that can be a productive part of the overall corps.

Hmm... Where's the hate? It's just that he hasn't shown much and is now older and yet another injury added to his list.

It happens. Talented guy that just couldn't ever get it to pan out in the pros, whether due to injury or QB woes when healthy. I'm not saying he's done or anything like that but I fail to see how anything Lee has done up to now should have anyone feeling better than 'meh' on him...

...

Yeah. The Jaguars brass and their 16.5 million dollars in guaranteed money tells a different story on "panning out." 
I think he's shown quite a bit but has been saddled with bad QBs that couldn't capitalize on his ability. 

If you haven't seen the hate over the past few years you haven't been paying much attention to the posting on this forum concerning the guy. There's even some minor hate in this thread if you review it. 

I just hope he gets healthy and contributes - and I feel pretty confident he will.

(05-22-2019, 04:03 PM)JackCity Wrote: I don't think he gets hate for anything other than being very meh. He doesn't have many routes he runs well and has inconsistent hands. Dime a dozen

How many routes was he allowed to run in which Bortles was trusted to make a semi-accurate pass? 

Does dumbing down the route tree for a [BLEEP] quarterback not also affect the receivers?
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#54

(05-22-2019, 04:08 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 03:53 PM)Kane Wrote: Hmm... Where's the hate? It's just that he hasn't shown much and is now older and yet another injury added to his list.

It happens. Talented guy that just couldn't ever get it to pan out in the pros, whether due to injury or QB woes when healthy. I'm not saying he's done or anything like that but I fail to see how anything Lee has done up to now should have anyone feeling better than 'meh' on him...

...

Yeah. The Jaguars brass and their 16.5 million dollars in guaranteed money tells a different story on "panning out." 
I think he's shown quite a bit but has been saddled with bad QBs that couldn't capitalize on his ability. 

If you haven't seen the hate over the past few years you haven't been paying much attention to the posting on this forum concerning the guy. There's even some minor hate in this thread if you review it. 

I just hope he gets healthy and contributes - and I feel pretty confident he will.

(05-22-2019, 04:03 PM)JackCity Wrote: I don't think he gets hate for anything other than being very meh. He doesn't have many routes he runs well and has inconsistent hands. Dime a dozen

How many routes was he allowed to run in which Bortles was trusted to make a semi-accurate pass? 

Does dumbing down the route tree for a [BLEEP] quarterback not also affect the receivers?

We've been watching him play since 2014. He rarely gets separation unless its on crossers and some dig routes and his hands are poor, I think you can evaluate those things independent from the QB play. He's a very replaceable member of the team
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#55

(05-22-2019, 06:20 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 04:08 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Yeah. The Jaguars brass and their 16.5 million dollars in guaranteed money tells a different story on "panning out." 
I think he's shown quite a bit but has been saddled with bad QBs that couldn't capitalize on his ability. 

If you haven't seen the hate over the past few years you haven't been paying much attention to the posting on this forum concerning the guy. There's even some minor hate in this thread if you review it. 

I just hope he gets healthy and contributes - and I feel pretty confident he will.


How many routes was he allowed to run in which Bortles was trusted to make a semi-accurate pass? 

Does dumbing down the route tree for a [BLEEP] quarterback not also affect the receivers?

We've been watching him play since 2014. He rarely gets separation unless its on crossers and some dig routes and his hands are poor, I think you can evaluate those things independent from the QB play. He's a very replaceable member of the team
Replaceable? Sure. The other stuff here is just ... well, I don't agree with your analysis at all.
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#56

(05-22-2019, 10:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 06:20 PM)JackCity Wrote: We've been watching him play since 2014. He rarely gets separation unless its on crossers and some dig routes and his hands are poor, I think you can evaluate those things independent from the QB play. He's a very replaceable member of the team
Replaceable? Sure. The other stuff here is just ... well, I don't agree with your analysis at all.

Which routes would you say he gets good separation on? And his hands have been poor since his first year in cillege
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#57

(05-22-2019, 04:08 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 03:53 PM)Kane Wrote: Hmm... Where's the hate? It's just that he hasn't shown much and is now older and yet another injury added to his list.

It happens. Talented guy that just couldn't ever get it to pan out in the pros, whether due to injury or QB woes when healthy. I'm not saying he's done or anything like that but I fail to see how anything Lee has done up to now should have anyone feeling better than 'meh' on him...

...

Yeah. The Jaguars brass and their 16.5 million dollars in guaranteed money tells a different story on "panning out." 
I think he's shown quite a bit but has been saddled with bad QBs that couldn't capitalize on his ability. 

If you haven't seen the hate over the past few years you haven't been paying much attention to the posting on this forum concerning the guy. There's even some minor hate in this thread if you review it. 

I just hope he gets healthy and contributes - and I feel pretty confident he will.

(05-22-2019, 04:03 PM)JackCity Wrote: I don't think he gets hate for anything other than being very meh. He doesn't have many routes he runs well and has inconsistent hands. Dime a dozen

How many routes was he allowed to run in which Bortles was trusted to make a semi-accurate pass? 

Does dumbing down the route tree for a [BLEEP] quarterback not also affect the receivers?

I'm sorry did you just say that the Jaguars brass handing out money means he panned out?
C'mon man... you're smarter than that ahhahaha

Front offices make mistakes all the time. Paying Lee was one of them, whether you want to admit it or not. Dude has been average at best when he makes it on the field. Great guy, great teammate, meh product on field.
Hell I even chalked some of it up to poor QB play. But those sort of things happen to all players. When Robinson and Hurns were here Lee was 3rd best. And flash forward a couple seasons, he's still probably third best. Some of that is bad luck (QB and injuries) some of it is, he is what he is and 5 seasons in he just hasn't done much.

And no... I haven't seen hate for Lee. I've seen people be critical of him much in the same way people were critical of Bortles, or Gerhart, or Bradley... or numerous other people not safe from shade. Funny how criticism is criticism when someone doesn't like a player but if it is one they like then it becomes hate.

We can make excuses for every player and blame Bortles if you want to. But Hurns and Robinson had career years with Bortles as QB and haven't sniffed that production and likely never will (Maybe Arob if Biscuit plays better)
Some guys are just guys and if you have a bet on Lee making HoF or something... I'm sorry, you probably placed a bad wager my friend lol
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#58

(05-23-2019, 10:14 AM)Kane Wrote:
(05-22-2019, 04:08 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Yeah. The Jaguars brass and their 16.5 million dollars in guaranteed money tells a different story on "panning out." 
I think he's shown quite a bit but has been saddled with bad QBs that couldn't capitalize on his ability. 

If you haven't seen the hate over the past few years you haven't been paying much attention to the posting on this forum concerning the guy. There's even some minor hate in this thread if you review it. 

I just hope he gets healthy and contributes - and I feel pretty confident he will.


How many routes was he allowed to run in which Bortles was trusted to make a semi-accurate pass? 

Does dumbing down the route tree for a [BLEEP] quarterback not also affect the receivers?

I'm sorry did you just say that the Jaguars brass handing out money means he panned out?
C'mon man... you're smarter than that ahhahaha

Front offices make mistakes all the time. Paying Lee was one of them, whether you want to admit it or not. Dude has been average at best when he makes it on the field. Great guy, great teammate, meh product on field.
Hell I even chalked some of it up to poor QB play. But those sort of things happen to all players. When Robinson and Hurns were here Lee was 3rd best. And flash forward a couple seasons, he's still probably third best. Some of that is bad luck (QB and injuries) some of it is, he is what he is and 5 seasons in he just hasn't done much.

And no... I haven't seen hate for Lee. I've seen people be critical of him much in the same way people were critical of Bortles, or Gerhart, or Bradley... or numerous other people not safe from shade. Funny how criticism is criticism when someone doesn't like a player but if it is one they like then it becomes hate.

We can make excuses for every player and blame Bortles if you want to. But Hurns and Robinson had career years with Bortles as QB and haven't sniffed that production and likely never will (Maybe Arob if Biscuit plays better)
Some guys are just guys and if you have a bet on Lee making HoF or something... I'm sorry, you probably placed a bad wager my friend lol

I'm speaking very matter-of-factly about NFL players career arcs when I say he "panned out." 

A team believing in you enough to give you a lucrative second contract is absolutely "panning out" compared to the vast majority of NFL players - most of whom never get anywhere near that level of success. 

Now - if you want to define some line of statistical success to determine whether he has "panned out," then that is a different story.  
But - to my mind saying a guys career didn't pan out doesn't equate to that guy getting a second contract.  His contract also means he'll be playing elsewhere in 2020 unless he REALLY blows up this season. Unlikely that he'll play well enough to justify that given the team's cap situation. 

With that clarified, my stance on Lee is very simply based on a pretty exhaustive review of all 22 footage over the past 3 years.   I don't have a bet, I don't have any stake to defend. 
I simply have found much of the criticism of the guy to be not based in fact upon review of his play. 

Aside from that ugly 6 game stretch where he couldn't catch a cold, I have seen a receiver severely hampered by his QB and a dumbed down offensive system. 

I realize I'm more optimistic on the guy than basically everyone here. But I haven't landed at my opinion haphazardly. 
Laugh all you like. I trust my eyes.
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#59

(05-23-2019, 10:57 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 10:14 AM)Kane Wrote: I'm sorry did you just say that the Jaguars brass handing out money means he panned out?
C'mon man... you're smarter than that ahhahaha

Front offices make mistakes all the time. Paying Lee was one of them, whether you want to admit it or not. Dude has been average at best when he makes it on the field. Great guy, great teammate, meh product on field.
Hell I even chalked some of it up to poor QB play. But those sort of things happen to all players. When Robinson and Hurns were here Lee was 3rd best. And flash forward a couple seasons, he's still probably third best. Some of that is bad luck (QB and injuries) some of it is, he is what he is and 5 seasons in he just hasn't done much.

And no... I haven't seen hate for Lee. I've seen people be critical of him much in the same way people were critical of Bortles, or Gerhart, or Bradley... or numerous other people not safe from shade. Funny how criticism is criticism when someone doesn't like a player but if it is one they like then it becomes hate.

We can make excuses for every player and blame Bortles if you want to. But Hurns and Robinson had career years with Bortles as QB and haven't sniffed that production and likely never will (Maybe Arob if Biscuit plays better)
Some guys are just guys and if you have a bet on Lee making HoF or something... I'm sorry, you probably placed a bad wager my friend lol

I'm speaking very matter-of-factly about NFL players career arcs when I say he "panned out." 

A team believing in you enough to give you a lucrative second contract is absolutely "panning out" compared to the vast majority of NFL players - most of whom never get anywhere near that level of success. 

Now - if you want to define some line of statistical success to determine whether he has "panned out," then that is a different story.  
But - to my mind saying a guys career didn't pan out doesn't equate to that guy getting a second contract.  His contract also means he'll be playing elsewhere in 2020 unless he REALLY blows up this season. Unlikely that he'll play well enough to justify that given the team's cap situation. 

With that clarified, my stance on Lee is very simply based on a pretty exhaustive review of all 22 footage over the past 3 years.   I don't have a bet, I don't have any stake to defend. 
I simply have found much of the criticism of the guy to be not based in fact upon review of his play. 

Aside from that ugly 6 game stretch where he couldn't catch a cold, I have seen a receiver severely hampered by his QB and a dumbed down offensive system. 

I realize I'm more optimistic on the guy than basically everyone here. But I haven't landed at my opinion haphazardly. 
Laugh all you like. I trust my eyes.

Bortles got a 2nd contract

So did Derek Cox.... and that wide receiver we extended and then traded to Detroit cuz he sucked.

Terrible players get 2nd contracts all the time. I'm not saying Lee is terrible by any means. But I wouldn't equate a 2nd contract to panning out. The FO trusted he was ready to take another step and really produce and he tore his ACL. We'll see if he can bounce back. Personally I would have let him walk in FA before Arob... but I don't call the shots, I just watch to watch.

Like I said, if he puts up the stats you think he can, I'll be super surprised but won't be mad about being wrong about him at all. Some guys I give up on quicker than others, WRs are a dime a dozen, so I'm pretty ready to wash my hands with them after 3 seasons if they don't produce, regardless of who is at QB. QBs admittedly I'll hold on to longer than I should (Garrard, Bortles).
Lee is an afterthought to me, as I'm looking at Chark and Westbrook to be our guys and if they can't I'll probably give up on them before I'm tired of Foles being average.
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#60

(05-23-2019, 11:04 AM)Kane Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 10:57 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I'm speaking very matter-of-factly about NFL players career arcs when I say he "panned out." 

A team believing in you enough to give you a lucrative second contract is absolutely "panning out" compared to the vast majority of NFL players - most of whom never get anywhere near that level of success. 

Now - if you want to define some line of statistical success to determine whether he has "panned out," then that is a different story.  
But - to my mind saying a guys career didn't pan out doesn't equate to that guy getting a second contract.  His contract also means he'll be playing elsewhere in 2020 unless he REALLY blows up this season. Unlikely that he'll play well enough to justify that given the team's cap situation. 

With that clarified, my stance on Lee is very simply based on a pretty exhaustive review of all 22 footage over the past 3 years.   I don't have a bet, I don't have any stake to defend. 
I simply have found much of the criticism of the guy to be not based in fact upon review of his play. 

Aside from that ugly 6 game stretch where he couldn't catch a cold, I have seen a receiver severely hampered by his QB and a dumbed down offensive system. 

I realize I'm more optimistic on the guy than basically everyone here. But I haven't landed at my opinion haphazardly. 
Laugh all you like. I trust my eyes.

Bortles got a 2nd contract

So did Derek Cox.... and that wide receiver we extended and then traded to Detroit cuz he sucked.

Terrible players get 2nd contracts all the time. I'm not saying Lee is terrible by any means. But I wouldn't equate a 2nd contract to panning out. The FO trusted he was ready to take another step and really produce and he tore his ACL. We'll see if he can bounce back. Personally I would have let him walk in FA before Arob... but I don't call the shots, I just watch to watch.

Like I said, if he puts up the stats you think he can, I'll be super surprised but won't be mad about being wrong about him at all. Some guys I give up on quicker than others, WRs are a dime a dozen, so I'm pretty ready to wash my hands with them after 3 seasons if they don't produce, regardless of who is at QB. QBs admittedly I'll hold on to longer than I should (Garrard, Bortles).
Lee is an afterthought to me, as I'm looking at Chark and Westbrook to be our guys and if they can't I'll probably give up on them before I'm tired of Foles being average.

Derek Cox never got a 2nd contract. Mike Thomas did and was subsequently shipped off to Detroit that one is correct.
Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
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