IMO, the ultimate measure of how good or bad an NFL position coach is would probably be his tenure in the league. Guys who spend a couple years in the pros, then go back to Division II, then get a call from a desperate pro team, bounce around for a few more years then take some time off before being hired again probably aren't great. But Warhop's been in the NFL consistently for the last 23 years, all of them as an OL coach. He must be doing something right to stick around for that long, and to stick with the same team for several years at a time in four of his six pre-Jacksonville stops. A bad coach doesn't have that kind of history.

Joe Thomas and Alex Mack developed into pretty good players under Warhop.

How does that happen if he is so bad?

Well for one bad coaches can have good players. Secondly , Joe Thomas was an all pro type player before Warhop even got there.  

Deserves credit for developing Alex Mack (and Ali Marpet) , but he was also a top 20 pick so it's not like he was some bum Warhop turned good. Still deserves credit for them

Isn't it also true that good coaches can have bad players?

So how does the typical fan distinguish between the bad coach with good players and the good coach with bad players?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Should say, I don't think it's possible to know exactly "how good" every single position coach in the NFL is. Our new DB coach for instance, I have no opinion on at all and ain't going to pretend that I do.

Warhop at least has a long track record to study from and analyse. Bucs fans are delighted he's finally gone. I think he did a solid job with Browns, awful job with the 49ers , was bad with the Rams, Cardinals , solid with the cowboys.

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Well for one bad coaches can have good players. Secondly , Joe Thomas was an all pro type player before Warhop even got there.  

Deserves credit for developing Alex Mack (and Ali Marpet) , but he was also a top 20 pick so it's not like he was some bum Warhop turned good. Still deserves credit for them

Isn't it also true that good coaches can have bad players?

So how does the typical fan distinguish between the bad coach with good players and the good coach with bad players?

Of course. 

That's why it's important to use context. Just think of the Jaguars coaches fired from this year.  

 Think it's fair to say Pat Flaherty did a pretty good job last year right? Started two backup caliber guards + a rookie LT and still made a good line work.

This year he was fired despite being forced to play 3rd/4th stringers across the line. A typical fan would probably see the lines poor performance wasn't exactly due to bad coaching was it?

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Isn't it also true that good coaches can have bad players?

So how does the typical fan distinguish between the bad coach with good players and the good coach with bad players?

Of course. 

That's why it's important to use context. Just think of the Jaguars coaches fired from this year.  

 Think it's fair to say Pat Flaherty did a pretty good job last year right? Started two backup caliber guards + a rookie LT and still made a good line work.

This year he was fired despite being forced to play 3rd/4th stringers across the line. A typical fan would probably see the lines poor performance wasn't exactly due to bad coaching was it?

We don't actually know why he was fired, though. 

Given Marrone's background, and Flaherty being one of TC's guys ostensibly, Marrone may have simply wanted a coach for his o-line that he saw eye to eye with fundamentally.  Perhaps he and Flaherty weren't a good fit. 
Who knows?  We can't assume an injury riddled line's bad performance is the only reason he's gone.

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Of course. 

That's why it's important to use context. Just think of the Jaguars coaches fired from this year.  

 Think it's fair to say Pat Flaherty did a pretty good job last year right? Started two backup caliber guards + a rookie LT and still made a good line work.

This year he was fired despite being forced to play 3rd/4th stringers across the line. A typical fan would probably see the lines poor performance wasn't exactly due to bad coaching was it?

We don't actually know why he was fired, though. 

Given Marrone's background, and Flaherty being one of TC's guys ostensibly, Marrone may have simply wanted a coach for his o-line that he saw eye to eye with fundamentally.  Perhaps he and Flaherty weren't a good fit. 
Who knows?  We can't assume an injury riddled line's bad performance is the only reason he's gone.

Sure, he might have been a malcontent and wanted to go his own way, might have had a difference in opinion, plenty of things could have resulted in the firing. 

The point is more so that fans would be able to see that the poor offensive line performance was heavily influenced by injuries.

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Looks like we're going all in on the back to irrelevance and just being a punch line. No wonder this team cried after losing the AFCG last year. That was their one shot at glory.

Don't be disrespectful because I cried too.  It wasn't because it was the only shot at glory.....its because the refs literally ****ed us.  Blatantly Obviously too.  Don't ever mention that game.

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Season Tix, Section 409

2023 and still counting.....SB will finally be ours soon enough.
TLaw aka 'the prince that was promised' supporter.

This FO confuses the beejeezus out of me.

If you expect the worst, you are never disappointed.

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IMO, the ultimate measure of how good or bad an NFL position coach is would probably be his tenure in the league. Guys who spend a couple years in the pros, then go back to Division II, then get a call from a desperate pro team, bounce around for a few more years then take some time off before being hired again probably aren't great. But Warhop's been in the NFL consistently for the last 23 years, all of them as an OL coach. He must be doing something right to stick around for that long, and to stick with the same team for several years at a time in four of his six pre-Jacksonville stops. A bad coach doesn't have that kind of history.

2/10, not enough panic or gloom and doom in this post.

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What? - respect the opinion of people who have been in the profession for years as opposed to those who watch the NFL on television? Come on now.

Now, there is certainly some of that let's hire our friends in the NFL, as there is in any industry. But when you are judged, and employed, based on wins and loses you tend to have incentive to hire people who have shown some expertise in their line of work.

Like any of us has a clue as to who is or isn't a good O-line coach. O-line!

Ah yes...how would any of us mere mortals know that Dante Scarnecchia and Mike Munchak are really good Oline coaches and that Tom Cable is an awful Oline coach??? 

What a mystery

It's fair to have an opinion as a fan. I have one, you have one and we disagree. I'm willing to bet his peers have more insight into the kind of job he's doing though. Also, I disagree that bad coaches stay in the league. They typically bounce around and then drop out to another league or profession after a few years.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Ah yes...how would any of us mere mortals know that Dante Scarnecchia and Mike Munchak are really good Oline coaches and that Tom Cable is an awful Oline coach??? 

What a mystery

It's fair to have an opinion as a fan. I have one, you have one and we disagree. I'm willing to bet his peers have more insight into the kind of job he's doing though. Also, I disagree that bad coaches stay in the league. They typically bounce around and then drop out to another league or profession after a few years.

Would you agree with the above comment? 

The NFL has always been a "who do you know" league more than anything else. The problem with basing your opinions off what their peers say about them is 95% of the time coaches (and players for the most part, although its changing a bit) are going to say something positive. You'd be hard pressed to find any Seattle coaches who said Tom Cable sucked on the way out. 

Joe Thomas knows more than most fans about football, sure, he also refused to say anything bad about Hue Jackson while he was HC and gave him excuses for everything. Being truthful about coaches you've worked with orr coached with isn't something the NFL does

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It's fair to have an opinion as a fan. I have one, you have one and we disagree. I'm willing to bet his peers have more insight into the kind of job he's doing though. Also, I disagree that bad coaches stay in the league. They typically bounce around and then drop out to another league or profession after a few years.

Would you agree with the above comment? 

The NFL has always been a "who do you know" league more than anything else. The problem with basing your opinions off what their peers say about them is 95% of the time coaches (and players for the most part, although its changing a bit) are going to say something positive. You'd be hard pressed to find any Seattle coaches who said Tom Cable sucked on the way out. 

Joe Thomas knows more than most fans about football, sure, he also refused to say anything bad about Hue Jackson while he was HC and gave him excuses for everything. Being truthful about coaches you've worked with orr coached with isn't something the NFL does

I'd like to know how you determine who is a good or bad offensive line coach.  I realy don't know, myself.

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Would you agree with the above comment? 

The NFL has always been a "who do you know" league more than anything else. The problem with basing your opinions off what their peers say about them is 95% of the time coaches (and players for the most part, although its changing a bit) are going to say something positive. You'd be hard pressed to find any Seattle coaches who said Tom Cable sucked on the way out. 

Joe Thomas knows more than most fans about football, sure, he also refused to say anything bad about Hue Jackson while he was HC and gave him excuses for everything. Being truthful about coaches you've worked with orr coached with isn't something the NFL does

I'd like to know how you determine who is a good or bad offensive line coach.  I realy don't know, myself.

How do you determine if any coach or player is good or bad?

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I'd like to know how you determine who is a good or bad offensive line coach.  I realy don't know, myself.

How do you determine if any coach or player is good or bad?

Watch them practice.

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I'd like to know how you determine who is a good or bad offensive line coach.  I realy don't know, myself.

How do you determine if any coach or player is good or bad?

The process of identifying a good position coach from the fan's perspective is VERY indirect and undefined. 

Identifying talented players is much simpler. 

The best you can really do as a fan analyzing a position coach is to look for prospects that entered their position groups who weren't surefire, can't-miss early picks  --  and then see if that coach developed some of those guys into long term starters or at least got good seasons out of them. 

So much of the easy conclusions folks tend to draw are predicated upon good players playing well. 
Deciding how much of a good performance was due to the players innate talent and how much was due to the position coach is one heckuva guessing game.

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How do you determine if any coach or player is good or bad?

The process of identifying a good position coach from the fan's perspective is VERY indirect and undefined. 

Identifying talented players is much simpler. 

The best you can really do as a fan analyzing a position coach is to look for prospects that entered their position groups who weren't surefire, can't-miss early picks  --  and then see if that coach developed some of those guys into long term starters or at least got good seasons out of them. 

So much of the easy conclusions folks tend to draw are predicated upon good players playing well. 
Deciding how much of a good performance was due to the players innate talent and how much was due to the position coach is one heckuva guessing game.

It absolutely is,  I said as much a few comments above. I have almost nothing to judge our new DB coach and thus have no real take on him. He could be good , could be bad, who knows.  

But the reality is you can still examine track record to evaluate if you like what they've done so far. When Perry Fewell was hired here people were happy because he had a track record of having DB units that aggressively hunted turnovers, that was something that was discussed.  If Tom Cable was hired this year we'd all go to his track record and say he did an awful job in Seattle and with the Raiders too and we'd have question marks about what he can do here. When Pat Flaherty was hired we looked at his track record and discussed how good of a fit he'd be here based on that.    

Oline coach has become the most important assistant coach in the NFL. Its not really an area you can afford to have bad performance and prosper. Bucs fans are all delighted Warhop is gone because he did such a bad job for them , bar bringing Ali Marpet along and one productive year.

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The process of identifying a good position coach from the fan's perspective is VERY indirect and undefined. 

Identifying talented players is much simpler. 

The best you can really do as a fan analyzing a position coach is to look for prospects that entered their position groups who weren't surefire, can't-miss early picks  --  and then see if that coach developed some of those guys into long term starters or at least got good seasons out of them. 

So much of the easy conclusions folks tend to draw are predicated upon good players playing well. 
Deciding how much of a good performance was due to the players innate talent and how much was due to the position coach is one heckuva guessing game.

Bucs fans are all delighted Warhop is gone because he did such a bad job for them

Link?

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It's fair to have an opinion as a fan. I have one, you have one and we disagree. I'm willing to bet his peers have more insight into the kind of job he's doing though. Also, I disagree that bad coaches stay in the league. They typically bounce around and then drop out to another league or profession after a few years.

Would you agree with the above comment? 

The NFL has always been a "who do you know" league more than anything else. The problem with basing your opinions off what their peers say about them is 95% of the time coaches (and players for the most part, although its changing a bit) are going to say something positive. You'd be hard pressed to find any Seattle coaches who said Tom Cable sucked on the way out. 

Joe Thomas knows more than most fans about football, sure, he also refused to say anything bad about Hue Jackson while he was HC and gave him excuses for everything. Being truthful about coaches you've worked with orr coached with isn't something the NFL does

I bet when head coaches look to hire assistants, they're looking at who can help them win since it's their job on the line. Sure, Marrone will look at people he's comfortable with and possibly known before but no one is going to go hire a bad assistant just because they like them.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Sooooooo, no championship? We is doomed.

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Looking to troll? Don't bother, we supply our own.

 

 

Would you agree with the above comment? 

The NFL has always been a "who do you know" league more than anything else. The problem with basing your opinions off what their peers say about them is 95% of the time coaches (and players for the most part, although its changing a bit) are going to say something positive. You'd be hard pressed to find any Seattle coaches who said Tom Cable sucked on the way out. 

Joe Thomas knows more than most fans about football, sure, he also refused to say anything bad about Hue Jackson while he was HC and gave him excuses for everything. Being truthful about coaches you've worked with orr coached with isn't something the NFL does

I bet when head coaches look to hire assistants, they're looking at who can help them win since it's their job on the line. Sure, Marrone will look at people he's comfortable with and possibly known before but no one is going to go hire a bad assistant just because they like them.

No, I don't anyone intentionally hires an awful coach. In the same way I don't think anyone intentionally drafts an awful player or signs an awful free agent. All of the above is a given. 
You said what their peers say about them about them matters a lot more than any insight based on track record. I don't think thats a good way to evaluate any coach. Pete Carroll saying Tom Cable is an outstanding Oline coach doesn't actually make him one. Gus Bradley saying Greg Olson is an outstanding offensive mind doesn't make him one.

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Bucs fans are all delighted Warhop is gone because he did such a bad job for them

Link?

You want to know how/why he did such a bad job or examples of Bucs fans hating him? Both can be provided.

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Arguing about a position coach is probably dumb but I've dug my grave so ill stand in it. I hope he does great and proves me wrong, I'm just very skeptical he does well based on his track record with offensive lines.

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I bet when head coaches look to hire assistants, they're looking at who can help them win since it's their job on the line. Sure, Marrone will look at people he's comfortable with and possibly known before but no one is going to go hire a bad assistant just because they like them.

No, I don't anyone intentionally hires an awful coach. In the same way I don't think anyone intentionally drafts an awful player or signs an awful free agent. All of the above is a given. 
You said what their peers say about them about them matters a lot more than any insight based on track record. I don't think thats a good way to evaluate any coach. Pete Carroll saying Tom Cable is an outstanding Oline coach doesn't actually make him one. Gus Bradley saying Greg Olson is an outstanding offensive mind doesn't make him one.
t to know how/why he did such a bad job or examples of Bucs fans hating him? Both can be provided.

That's not what I actually said. I said that what their peers say or think about them matters more than what fans think. The insight you're talking about tends to come from a stat or a formula or a particular set of circumstances whereas the professionals look at the context and the big picture. Perfect example, you think Greg Olson is a bad OC, but his peers think he's a pretty good one and if you look at his history in the league, that would tend to bear that out. Being a good coach in the NFL doesn't mean you're always going to be successful, that's the nature of the game. If fans called the shots, Belichick would have never gotten another shot after his tenure in Cleveland. Believe it or not, the people that make those decisions knew better.  

That's not saying fans can't or shouldn't have their opinions, fans are going to fan. It's just more rational to take people who do this for a living a bit more seriously than some guy who made up a stat and posted it on a website.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.