You can't. You are not able. Not yet, anyhow
However, 
You may try.  You don't need anyone's permission to figure me out, it just might be beyond your abilities.

Yes, you're soooooo complex I could study the workings of your great mind as others have studied all the greats, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Simpson, Griffin and come away struck with awe.

If you're going to put Aristotle and Peter Griffin in the same category, sure, I fit in there somewhere.  So do you.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

So mikesez says ... "that the party you have unduly pledged allegiance to (though some of you claim to be independent, hah)"

I don't know what that means. Does that mean everybody that claims middle ground are lying? To be honest, I haven't noticed much middle ground in politics for many years, and it ain't getting anything even remotely close to being better. Sure, blame them (the other side), or blame him (pick one).  mikesez doesn't come off as middle ground either ...  This sucks, and it is going to get way worse before it gets better. It won't get better, because look at the guy you are debating on this board (from both sides). You think he is going to change, and you don't have to? You fools are digging in, not working together. The divide is growing, and it didn't start a couple years ago.

Bunch of thick headed people lead our country, and have for more than one Presidency.  They aren't just located in the White House either. They are in every branch. They are alive and well living next door to each other ... in your own neighborhoods. Last Democrat President I voted for was Clinton. When are we ever going to get two middle ground Presidential nominations again? Not like this we aren't

Regarding the part in bold, I don't see it happening anytime soon.  The left has gone WAY left and the right is trending for WAY right.  Quite frankly, I see President Trump as being more towards the center than people think.  All that I want my President to do is uphold The Constitution.  President Trump is fulfilling that with the border wall (providing for the common defense).  It's buried in the news right now but he is negotiating with a hostile country to settle the differences and make peace.  It's more than any other President has done since Reagan.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

You can't. You are not able. Not yet, anyhow
However, 
You may try.  You don't need anyone's permission to figure me out, it just might be beyond your abilities.

Yes, you're soooooo complex I could study the workings of your great mind as others have studied all the greats, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Simpson, Griffin and come away struck with awe.

Leave me out of this. Geez.

---

So mikesez says ... "that the party you have unduly pledged allegiance to (though some of you claim to be independent, hah)"

I don't know what that means. Does that mean everybody that claims middle ground are lying? To be honest, I haven't noticed much middle ground in politics for many years, and it ain't getting anything even remotely close to being better. Sure, blame them (the other side), or blame him (pick one).  mikesez doesn't come off as middle ground either ...  This sucks, and it is going to get way worse before it gets better. It won't get better, because look at the guy you are debating on this board (from both sides). You think he is going to change, and you don't have to? You fools are digging in, not working together. The divide is growing, and it didn't start a couple years ago.

Bunch of thick headed people lead our country, and have for more than one Presidency.  They aren't just located in the White House either. They are in every branch. They are alive and well living next door to each other ... in your own neighborhoods. Last Democrat President I voted for was Clinton. When are we ever going to get two middle ground Presidential nominations again? Not like this we aren't

Regarding the part in bold, I don't see it happening anytime soon.  The left has gone WAY left and the right is trending for WAY right.  Quite frankly, I see President Trump as being more towards the center than people think.  All that I want my President to do is uphold The Constitution.  President Trump is fulfilling that with the border wall (providing for the common defense).  It's buried in the news right now but he is negotiating with a hostile country to settle the differences and make peace.  It's more than any other President has done since Reagan.

I don't know why you wouldn't consider Obama's overtures to both Cuba, and Iran as negotiating with a hostile country. They have been, and still are.

To be blunt, I think Trump is trying to one-up Obama's Iran Nuclear deal by pursuing an even bolder North Korea Nuclear deal.  Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are. Get this, I recognize Obama was as far left as Trump is right. I see it, but you have to be able to look from the middle to recognize it. Most people can't do that, and it doesn't make them bad people ... They are far more normal than I am.

---

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

Sorry, but this is mostly nonsense.

Trump has done no damage to the country so far, unless you count the insane Democrat response as his fault, and considering how they treated Bush and Romney (and Kavanaugh), an insane response was probably waiting for any Pub president. Warren wants to start a race war by promising reparations, and a shooting war by confiscating guns. She voted to allow hospitals to let babies die without trying to keep them alive (and yes, some states now allow that, so it wasn't an unnecessary bill). I think your equating the two is deeply flawed.

You want the government to do things that work. Great. I want to win the lottery. I think my odds are better than yours.

Open minded? What leftist idea should we be open minded about? Destroying the economy through socialism? Destroying the economy through "Green" totalitarian laws? Letting babies die after they are born? Maybe you wan to defend open borders?

I have not joined a team. I was opposed to Trump. But I have seen him do a lot of good for the country, more than I would have hoped from any Pub candidate. I am a fan of Trump because his policies so far, not because he's a Pub, or because of MAGA, or for any other reason.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Blind people will be blind.

---

Regarding the part in bold, I don't see it happening anytime soon.  The left has gone WAY left and the right is trending for WAY right.  Quite frankly, I see President Trump as being more towards the center than people think.  All that I want my President to do is uphold The Constitution.  President Trump is fulfilling that with the border wall (providing for the common defense).  It's buried in the news right now but he is negotiating with a hostile country to settle the differences and make peace.  It's more than any other President has done since Reagan.

I don't know why you wouldn't consider Obama's overtures to both Cuba, and Iran as negotiating with a hostile country. They have been, and still are.

To be blunt, I think Trump is trying to one-up Obama's Iran Nuclear deal by pursuing an even bolder North Korea Nuclear deal.  Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are. Get this, I recognize Obama was as far left as Trump is right. I see it, but you have to be able to look from the middle to recognize it. Most people can't do that, and it doesn't make them bad people ... They are far more normal than I am.

Trump is not "far right," he's a centrist. It's the center that has moved away from his policy. Is supporting Israel "far right" now? Is defending the border? Is putting originalist judges in SCOTUS? Is pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan "far right"? Passing the first Step act? The only thing you could say about Trump in that direction is that he won't submit to the blackmail of the Left like Bush did.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

I don't know why you wouldn't consider Obama's overtures to both Cuba, and Iran as negotiating with a hostile country. They have been, and still are.

To be blunt, I think Trump is trying to one-up Obama's Iran Nuclear deal by pursuing an even bolder North Korea Nuclear deal.  Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are. Get this, I recognize Obama was as far left as Trump is right. I see it, but you have to be able to look from the middle to recognize it. Most people can't do that, and it doesn't make them bad people ... They are far more normal than I am.

Trump is not "far right," he's a centrist. It's the center that has moved away from his policy. Is supporting Israel "far right" now? Is defending the border? Is putting originalist judges in SCOTUS? Is pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan "far right"? Passing the first Step act? The only thing you could say about Trump in that direction is that he won't submit to the blackmail of the Left like Bush did.

You are pushing so hard to be as far from the left as you can, you don't even recognize how far right you have landed. Why are you bringing up Israel? Syria, Afghanistan?  Are you trying to pick a fight you have been waiting to win? Presto, you win the right side of middle ground, congratulations.

PS, I wouldn't pick anything in the ME to hang my hat on. You can't win there.

---

Trump is not "far right," he's a centrist. It's the center that has moved away from his policy. Is supporting Israel "far right" now? Is defending the border? Is putting originalist judges in SCOTUS? Is pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan "far right"? Passing the first Step act? The only thing you could say about Trump in that direction is that he won't submit to the blackmail of the Left like Bush did.

You are pushing so hard to be as far from the left as you can, you don't even recognize how far right you have landed. Why are you bringing up Israel? Syria, Afghanistan?  Are you trying to pick a fight you have been waiting to win? Presto, you win the right side of middle ground, congratulations.

PS, I wouldn't pick anything in the ME to hang my hat on. You can't win there.

I was just pointing out things that Trump did that I never considered as "far right." You still haven't said what in particular make you judge Trump to be "far right." Was there something else I didn't mention that you see as "far right," like the tax cut?

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

You are pushing so hard to be as far from the left as you can, you don't even recognize how far right you have landed. Why are you bringing up Israel? Syria, Afghanistan?  Are you trying to pick a fight you have been waiting to win? Presto, you win the right side of middle ground, congratulations.

PS, I wouldn't pick anything in the ME to hang my hat on. You can't win there.

I was just pointing out things that Trump did that I never considered as "far right." You still haven't said what in particular make you judge Trump to be "far right." Was there something else I didn't mention that you see as "far right," like the tax cut?

Now you mention "Tax Cut" ... Is that another battle you've practiced to win? Why do you keep steering the discussion towards a debate you've practiced to win? I get that you can't recognize where the middle is, it is a desert now days.

Funny thing about campaign promises when it involves taxes.

"NO NEW TAXES" = They are raising existing taxes.

"NOT RAISING TAXES" = Creating new taxes.

Politics at its finest.

---

I don't know why you wouldn't consider Obama's overtures to both Cuba, and Iran as negotiating with a hostile country. They have been, and still are.

To be blunt, I think Trump is trying to one-up Obama's Iran Nuclear deal by pursuing an even bolder North Korea Nuclear deal.  Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are. Get this, I recognize Obama was as far left as Trump is right. I see it, but you have to be able to look from the middle to recognize it. Most people can't do that, and it doesn't make them bad people ... They are far more normal than I am.

Trump is not "far right," he's a centrist. It's the center that has moved away from his policy. Is supporting Israel "far right" now? Is defending the border? Is putting originalist judges in SCOTUS? Is pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan "far right"? Passing the first Step act? The only thing you could say about Trump in that direction is that he won't submit to the blackmail of the Left like Bush did.

You're making some good points and asking some good questions.

Supporting Israel is a centrist position. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was a political taboo but there's never going to be a Palestinian state anyhow. Getting at least some aspects of our foreign policy off of the two-state solution fantasy is commendable.

Defending the border is also a centrist position. Doing it with a wall rather than a fence is sort of silly. Trying to do use funds from the US Treasury to do either without the express consent of Congress is completely against everything that the Constitution has ever stood for.

Putting originalist judges on the supreme Court is something that the left wing has disagreed with since the late 1930s. So I wouldn't call it centrist, But I would say that Trump had a lot of good people to choose from who have a long record of holding an originalist philosophy but didn't also have a record of lying to Congress and being a party operative the way that Brett kavanaugh did.

Pulling troops out of any foreign place could be construed as a leftist move, simply because it would be following the example of Lenin. I don't think it's fair to call military strategy left or right or center though. It's either a reasonable strategy given the threats to our homeland and allies and state of play in the battlefield, or not.

Passing criminal Justice reform is indeed a positive thing and I would question if any of the other Republican candidates would have tried to do such a thing. too many people have been in jail for too long especially for non-violent drug-related crimes.

But I think you're neglecting all the corrosion that Trump has caused. it's now in bounds for president to tell us to ignore photographic evidence and just trust him when he says that one crowd is larger than another. it's now in bounds for a president to refer to countries that are simply poor as [BLEEP]. It's now in bounds to try to use national emergency Powers when Congress doesn't give you what you want. It's now in bounds for the president two not disclose his tax returns. Try to get a job anywhere in the executive branch without disclosing your tax returns. Yet the boss doesn't have to do that even though the boss could change every 4 years or even more often? What kind of way is that to run a ship? It's now in bounds for presidential candidate to be in contact with agents of a hostile foreign power.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Trump is not "far right," he's a centrist. It's the center that has moved away from his policy. Is supporting Israel "far right" now? Is defending the border? Is putting originalist judges in SCOTUS? Is pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan "far right"? Passing the first Step act? The only thing you could say about Trump in that direction is that he won't submit to the blackmail of the Left like Bush did.

You're making some good points and asking some good questions.

Supporting Israel is a centrist position. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was a political taboo but there's never going to be a Palestinian state anyhow. Getting at least some aspects of our foreign policy off of the two-state solution fantasy is commendable.

Defending the border is also a centrist position. Doing it with a wall rather than a fence is sort of silly. Trying to do use funds from the US Treasury to do either without the express consent of Congress is completely against everything that the Constitution has ever stood for.

Putting originalist judges on the supreme Court is something that the left wing has disagreed with since the late 1930s. So I wouldn't call it centrist, But I would say that Trump had a lot of good people to choose from who have a long record of holding an originalist philosophy but didn't also have a record of lying to Congress and being a party operative the way that Brett kavanaugh did.

Pulling troops out of any foreign place could be construed as a leftist move, simply because it would be following the example of Lenin. I don't think it's fair to call military strategy left or right or center though. It's either a reasonable strategy given the threats to our homeland and allies and state of play in the battlefield, or not.

Passing criminal Justice reform is indeed a positive thing and I would question if any of the other Republican candidates would have tried to do such a thing. too many people have been in jail for too long especially for non-violent drug-related crimes.

But I think you're neglecting all the corrosion that Trump has caused. it's now in bounds for president to tell us to ignore photographic evidence and just trust him when he says that one crowd is larger than another. it's now in bounds for a president to refer to countries that are simply poor as [BLEEP]. It's now in bounds to try to use national emergency Powers when Congress doesn't give you what you want. It's now in bounds for the president two not disclose his tax returns. Try to get a job anywhere in the executive branch without disclosing your tax returns. Yet the boss doesn't have to do that even though the boss could change every 4 years or even more often? What kind of way is that to run a ship? It's now in bounds for presidential candidate to be in contact with agents of a hostile foreign power.

Abusing emergency powers is problem with Trump. But has been done by Obama and Bush before him. This is the first time it has been a national news item, but not the first time it was done. And in the case of the border barrier the use of emergency powers was part of the budget deal. It wouldn't have gone through had Trump not expected to be able to do that.

Trump exaggerates a lot (OK, you can call it lying) but he's  basically a salesman, and that's how they talk. And yes, some countries are [BLEEP] holes, so that wasn't one of his lies, and the context was about the policy of recruiting people from [BLEEP] hole countries and giving them preferential treatment to becoming citizens.

As far as tax returns are concerned, they should always be undisclosed. Always! For everyone! The fact that they are sometimes released is a good argument for abolishing the income tax (in the interest of disclosure, I'm a Fair Tax advocate).

I criticize the term "hostile" with respect to Russia. Certainly Russia does things we disapprove of, but calling every country who does that as "hostile" would eliminate everyone but Switzerland (yes it's hyperbole, but unfortunately not by much). Saudi Arabia is much worse and they are considered an ally.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

snippity-blah

Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are.

Guess we'd better get those silos out of Kansas, Wyoming and the Dakotas then.

---

Good, the less Nuclear rouge states the better off we all are.

Guess we'd better get those silos out of Kansas, Wyoming and the Dakotas then.

Stop.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Yes, you're soooooo complex I could study the workings of your great mind as others have studied all the greats, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Simpson, Griffin and come away struck with awe.

If you're going to put Aristotle and Peter Griffin in the same category, sure, I fit in there somewhere.  So do you.

Oh no, I'm not anywhere close to the level of intellectual heights you guys attained. Philosophy students the world over for generations to come will ponder the minutiae of your pontifications to find ever greater clarity and wisdom on the very meaning of all existence. I foresee that your birth shall be marked and revered along with, nay, even to supersede the giants of our history, men known by merely their first name like Jesus, Elvis, Abraham, Martin, and John. Men who by their lives left us great inspiration and by  their deaths left us all simply a little less. Press onward with your quest young knight, greatness and conquest shall be yours in the Great Message Board Crusade. Honor and Glory!

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

If you're going to put Aristotle and Peter Griffin in the same category, sure, I fit in there somewhere.  So do you.

Oh no, I'm not anywhere close to the level of intellectual heights you guys attained. Philosophy students the world over for generations to come will ponder the minutiae of your pontifications to find ever greater clarity and wisdom on the very meaning of all existence. I forsee that your birth shall be marked and revered along with, nay, even to superceed the giants of our history, men known by merely their first name like Jesus, Elvis, Abraham, Martin, and John. Men who by their lives left us great inspiration and by  their deaths left us all simply a little less. Press onward with your quest young knight, greatness and conquest shall be yours in the Great Message Board Crusade. Honor and Glory!

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

Sorry, but this is mostly nonsense.

Trump has done no damage to the country so far, unless you count the insane Democrat response as his fault, and considering how they treated Bush and Romney (and Kavanaugh), an insane response was probably waiting for any Pub president. Warren wants to start a race war by promising reparations, and a shooting war by confiscating guns. She voted to allow hospitals to let babies die without trying to keep them alive (and yes, some states now allow that, so it wasn't an unnecessary bill). I think your equating the two is deeply flawed.

You want the government to do things that work. Great. I want to win the lottery. I think my odds are better than yours.

Open minded? What leftist idea should we be open minded about? Destroying the economy through socialism? Destroying the economy through "Green" totalitarian laws? Letting babies die after they are born? Maybe you wan to defend open borders?

I have not joined a team. I was opposed to Trump. But I have seen him do a lot of good for the country, more than I would have hoped from any Pub candidate. I am a fan of Trump because his policies so far, not because he's a Pub, or because of MAGA, or for any other reason.

So I'm going to take my own advice, and instead of counterattacking your post, instead just ask a few questions.  

What, in your opinion, is the reason some people adopt a "left-wing" political position?  

Are you at all concerned about the federal budget deficit?  

Do you think there was ever a case where "liberals" were right and "conservatives" were wrong?   In other words, have liberals ever done anything good?   

When you post in this message board, do you care about whether you can actually change anyone's mind about anything?   Do you think it's possible to change anyone's mind?   Why do you post political arguments here?   What's the point?

---

If you're going to put Aristotle and Peter Griffin in the same category, sure, I fit in there somewhere.  So do you.

Oh no, I'm not anywhere close to the level of intellectual heights you guys attained. Philosophy students the world over for generations to come will ponder the minutiae of your pontifications to find ever greater clarity and wisdom on the very meaning of all existence. I forsee that your birth shall be marked and revered along with, nay, even to superceed the giants of our history, men known by merely their first name like Jesus, Elvis, Abraham, Martin, and John. Men who by their lives left us great inspiration and by  their deaths left us all simply a little less. Press onward with your quest young knight, greatness and conquest shall be yours in the Great Message Board Crusade. Honor and Glory!

You have many contacts among the lumberjacks
To get you facts when someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect, anyway they already expect you to all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations  

You've been with the professors and they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read it's well known.
But there's something happening here but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Ballad of A Thin Man
  Bob Dylan

---

The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

Guess we'd better get those silos out of Kansas, Wyoming and the Dakotas then.

Stop.

I think you may have been whooshed by the pun.

---

Stop.

I think you may have been whooshed by the pun.

Poe's Law.

---

Oh no, I'm not anywhere close to the level of intellectual heights you guys attained. Philosophy students the world over for generations to come will ponder the minutiae of your pontifications to find ever greater clarity and wisdom on the very meaning of all existence. I forsee that your birth shall be marked and revered along with, nay, even to superceed the giants of our history, men known by merely their first name like Jesus, Elvis, Abraham, Martin, and John. Men who by their lives left us great inspiration and by  their deaths left us all simply a little less. Press onward with your quest young knight, greatness and conquest shall be yours in the Great Message Board Crusade. Honor and Glory!

You have many contacts among the lumberjacks
To get you facts when someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect, anyway they already expect you to all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations  

You've been with the professors and they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read it's well known.
But there's something happening here but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Ballad of A Thin Man
  Bob Dylan

Damn, I left Dylan off my list...

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato