Well, this thread is off to the usual great start.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Is there a resident kiwi on this forum who can tell all the foreigners to shut up and not involve themselves?

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Is there a resident kiwi on this forum who can tell all the foreigners to shut up and not involve themselves?

OMG. Pot, meet kettle.  

That's rich coming from you.

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Guns aren't needed whatsoever unless maybe living on a farm. Cars are petty vital for everyday living.

It's a stupid argument.

Yes, your argument is, well, stupid. Ride a bike, take a bus, ride the train, take a ferry, etc. Cars are not vital in any form but you knew that.

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A car is an objective good.
A wall is morally neutral because you may simply want one for shelter or privacy which are good, or you may be using it to keep bad people off of your property, which is a necessary evil. 
A gun is simply a necessary evil. 
There is nothing wrong with using a tool that's a necessary evil if you feel the need to do so.
You should do so soberly, however. You should not revel in it. Remember, this tool is there to finish things, not to start them.

Twist how you will, but you cannot assign morality to an inanimate object. Period.

Right. It is the way that humans choose to use these inanimate objects that could be moral or immoral. And then there are shades morality, such as neutral or necessary evil, that are not good but also not totally evil. if you have delved into the necessary evil because you feel it is necessary, you should not be celebrating it. If you're cheering on the use of the necessary evil, you may actually be immoral.
A car can be used for many things but none of these things are a necessary evil. A gun is not used for many things, and nearly all of these things are necessary evils.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Is there a resident kiwi on this forum who can tell all the foreigners to shut up and not involve themselves?

OMG. Pot, meet kettle.  

That's rich coming from you.

Think that must have gone over your head...

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that doesn't mean it's smart to say that guns are just a morally neutral tool like a car.

If guns did not help advance the human condition, they would have fallen out of favor centuries ago. But humans are thriving in this era of cheap, reliable guns. Why is that, I wonder? Maybe feeding and protecting themselves lets good people live long enough to reproduce and build something that lasts? Maybe they have more free time to advance the culture because 1 bullet can feed the tribe for a week.

So guns are a useful tool for humanity precisely BECAUSE they are so good at what they do. But they have no morality. Guns don't decide where to point themselves and when to pull the trigger.

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Yes, your argument is, well, stupid. Ride a bike, take a bus, ride the train, take a ferry, etc. Cars are not vital in any form but you knew that.

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Twist how you will, but you cannot assign morality to an inanimate object. Period.

Right. It is the way that humans choose to use these inanimate objects that could be moral or immoral. And then there are shades morality, such as neutral or necessary evil, that are not good but also not totally evil. if you have delved into the necessary evil because you feel it is necessary, you should not be celebrating it. If you're cheering on the use of the necessary evil, you may actually be immoral.
A car can be used for many things but none of these things are a necessary evil. A gun is not used for many things, and nearly all of these things are necessary evils.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

that doesn't mean it's smart to say that guns are just a morally neutral tool like a car.

If guns did not help advance the human condition, they would have fallen out of favor centuries ago.  But humans are thriving in this era of cheap, reliable guns.  Why is that, I wonder?  Maybe feeding and protecting themselves lets good people live long enough to reproduce and build something that lasts?  Maybe they have more free time to advance the culture because 1 bullet can feed the tribe for a week.  

So guns are a useful tool for humanity precisely BECAUSE they are so good at what they do.  But they have no morality.  Guns don't decide where to point themselves and when to pull the trigger.

Over 99% of animals that we eat were farmed. The ones that were killed with guns were killed by a captive bolt gun. We aren't discussing the type of gun here.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

OMG. Pot, meet kettle.  

That's rich coming from you.

Think that must have gone over your head...

Lol. It really did.

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Well, this thread is off to the usual great start.

There's a common thread.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

It could easily be argued that guns are a form of self-reliance that parallels vehicle ownership. The argument is whether or not one needs that self-reliance.

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Who would have thought free speech would fall so quickly after banning firearms. Facism alive and well in NZ. Still kneeling after all these years of so called independence.

https://news.yahoo.com/zealand-bans-terr...59674.html

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Who would have thought free speech would fall so quickly after banning firearms. Facism alive and well in NZ. Still kneeling after all these years of so called independence.

https://news.yahoo.com/zealand-bans-terr...59674.html

Would you want the general public reading a manifesto that "promotes murder and hate"? You never know in this day and age who will get a hold of it and decide to further the cause. Sometimes people already have the idea, they just need motivation and/or inspiration.

From 1999-2014 there were over 50 school attacks/plots for school attacks that were all inspired by the Columbine Massacre, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and/or a combination of the three. Who knows how many since 2014? 

As crazy as things are these days with radical left- and right-wing and other extremist groups gaining ground, the world doesn't need a manifesto floating around publicly to stoke any fires. As it is, one reason the crazy dude shot up the mosque and murdered those folks did it to stir up 2nd Amendment rights issues here in the U.S. NZ and the rest of the world doesn't need his crazy spreading.

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Who would have thought free speech would fall so quickly after banning firearms. Facism alive and well in NZ. Still kneeling after all these years of so called independence.

https://news.yahoo.com/zealand-bans-terr...59674.html

Would you want the general public reading a manifesto that "promotes murder and hate"? You never know in this day and age who will get a hold of it and decide to further the cause. Sometimes people already have the idea, they just need motivation and/or inspiration.

From 1999-2014 there were over 50 school attacks/plots for school attacks that were all inspired by the Columbine Massacre, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and/or a combination of the three. Who knows how many since 2014? 

As crazy as things are these days with radical left- and right-wing and other extremist groups gaining ground, the world doesn't need a manifesto floating around publicly to stoke any fires. As it is, one reason the crazy dude shot up the mosque and murdered those folks did it to stir up 2nd Amendment rights issues here in the U.S. NZ and the rest of the world doesn't need his crazy spreading.

I would want people to read whatever they like, with zero government filter. It’s simply a government power play in NZ.  Saying that this could just be the push someone needs to “copycat” is not fair to the root issue, which is hate and mental instability. You best believe this loons manifesto is not the worst thing that you may come across on the internet. Heck, we have politicians and media outlets in the US that do a good job of propping up hate and violence against certain classes. Ban CNN? Ban Facebook? Ban Google? Ban Twitter? Ban Snapchat? So when does the filtering start and end?

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Would you want the general public reading a manifesto that "promotes murder and hate"? You never know in this day and age who will get a hold of it and decide to further the cause. Sometimes people already have the idea, they just need motivation and/or inspiration.

From 1999-2014 there were over 50 school attacks/plots for school attacks that were all inspired by the Columbine Massacre, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and/or a combination of the three. Who knows how many since 2014? 

As crazy as things are these days with radical left- and right-wing and other extremist groups gaining ground, the world doesn't need a manifesto floating around publicly to stoke any fires. As it is, one reason the crazy dude shot up the mosque and murdered those folks did it to stir up 2nd Amendment rights issues here in the U.S. NZ and the rest of the world doesn't need his crazy spreading.

I would want people to read whatever they like, with zero government filter. It’s simply a government power play in NZ.  Saying that this could just be the push someone needs to “copycat” is not fair to the root issue, which is hate and mental instability. You best believe this loons manifesto is not the worst thing that you may come across on the internet. Heck, we have politicians and media outlets in the US that do a good job of propping up hate and violence against certain classes. Ban CNN? Ban Facebook? Ban Google? Ban Twitter? Ban Snapchat? So when does the filtering start and end?

I see your point and actually agree with you but I still have a problem with this crap being out there for easy reading. 

Stuff like this is where I get stuck with how I view things from a personal standpoint vs how I see it politically. Personally I don't think anyone should read the manifesto for many reasons, and I definitely wouldn't. On the other hand I agree that people should be able to read what they want. 

At my age I can see how wrong things can go when you fill your mind with garbage. I've seen it destroy some members of my family and I've made poor decisions in my distant past as well because I let the wrong things influence me unknowingly at the time.

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I would want people to read whatever they like, with zero government filter. It’s simply a government power play in NZ.  Saying that this could just be the push someone needs to “copycat” is not fair to the root issue, which is hate and mental instability. You best believe this loons manifesto is not the worst thing that you may come across on the internet. Heck, we have politicians and media outlets in the US that do a good job of propping up hate and violence against certain classes. Ban CNN? Ban Facebook? Ban Google? Ban Twitter? Ban Snapchat? So when does the filtering start and end?

I see your point and actually agree with you but I still have a problem with this crap being out there for easy reading. 

Stuff like this is where I get stuck with how I view things from a personal standpoint vs how I see it politically. Personally I don't think anyone should read the manifesto for many reasons, and I definitely wouldn't. On the other hand I agree that people should be able to read what they want. 

At my age I can see how wrong things can go when you fill your mind with garbage. I've seen it destroy some members of my family and I've made poor decisions in my distant past as well because I let the wrong things influence me unknowingly at the time.

Completely understand. We have all been impressionable at one point in time. Heck, most of us still are for one reason or another. I don’t have a desire to read it either but at least we have a choice. Bad people are going to be bad people regardless.

 It’s a shame society has become more and more unstable and desensitized to a point. I blame technology and lack of beneficial human to human interaction. We need to get back to a form of communication that requires emotional recognition, body language, feedback, and good ol’ empathy! Not how many internet “friends” one has. Sad ?

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You cannot debunk or refute arguments made in darkness, the light of the public square is needed.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato