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Is TE the need we think it is?

#61

An every down TE would fill a big need for this team. It's either that or OL. We need someone who can stretch the field and make plays from that position in our new offense with Foles. We're dead at that spot as is.
No pain, no gain.
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#62

(04-22-2019, 08:51 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-22-2019, 08:37 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: You would draft the next Vic Beasley, Dante Fowler, Teddy Bridgewater if you can get Saquon Barkley, Todd Gurley, or Ellitot just because the position is more valuable?

Would you draft the next Trent Richardson over the next Fletcher Cox? Try think of your debate points  before you type them

(04-22-2019, 08:29 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Thats why you take who you feel is the best player. Its BAP, If you feel like one of them there is a player in the draft that is going to be the next Bruce Smith, Marino, or Deion then you draft them.  Tom said it again today, they are going to take the best player, whether they hit on the pick or not it will be who they have the highest on their board for in the first round at least


Who were those guys QBs?  The good thing is now we have a QB

It's not just BAP though. Positional value and need is built into every draft pick. 

Cmon, you've been through enough drafts to know that by now

Why did you answer my question with a question? Cmon man, the position is more valuable though so why not take Beasley or Fowler over them? No but I would take Saquan Barkley over Cox.  Thats fine if you dont like Hockenson at 7 because hes a TE but most of the fan base will like the pick
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#63

(04-22-2019, 09:01 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-22-2019, 08:51 PM)JackCity Wrote: Would you draft the next Trent Richardson over the next Fletcher Cox? Try think of your debate points  before you type them


It's not just BAP though. Positional value and need is built into every draft pick. 

Cmon, you've been through enough drafts to know that by now

Why did you answer my question with a question? Cmon man, the position is more valuable though so why not take Beasley or Fowler over them? No but I would take Saquan Barkley over Cox.  Thats fine if you dont like Hockenson at 7 because hes a TE but most of the fan base will like the pick

Because it was an illogical question. Have you ever considered why the NFL views RB as the most replaceable position on offense or defense? 

Positional value not mattering is how you end up with a punter in the 3rd or a kicker in the 2nd like the Bucs. Those GMs ignored the value of the position and ended up with two of the worst picks in NFL history.

And no i think Hockenson is going to be a very good player and I'd be happy to have him. Just would have other players ahead of him as they are also going to be very good and play much more valuable spots (QB included but isn't going to happen). It's not like Fournette where we took a RB at #4 in the deepest class of all time when we desperately needed a QB and realistically could have taken one
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#64

(04-22-2019, 10:21 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-22-2019, 09:01 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Why did you answer my question with a question? Cmon man, the position is more valuable though so why not take Beasley or Fowler over them? No but I would take Saquan Barkley over Cox.  Thats fine if you dont like Hockenson at 7 because hes a TE but most of the fan base will like the pick

Because it was an illogical question. Have you ever considered why the NFL views RB as the most replaceable position on offense or defense? 

Positional value not mattering is how you end up with a punter in the 3rd or a kicker in the 2nd like the Bucs. Those GMs ignored the value of the position and ended up with two of the worst picks in NFL history.

And no i think Hockenson is going to be a very good player and I'd be happy to have him. Just would have other players ahead of him as they are also going to be very good and play much more valuable spots (QB included but isn't going to happen). It's not like Fournette where we took a RB at #4 in the deepest class of all time when we desperately needed a QB and realistically could have taken one

Where did I say positional value doesn't matter?  Where did Tom say that?  Now you are just making stuff up.  This is fun, a kicker or punter in the first 3 rounds is an idiotic move.
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#65

Positional value, need, BAP, who will help your team the most etc. should all be factors when making the pick not just 1 thing. There are a lot of different things that factor in when making a pick. Red flags and medical are a few more
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#66

(04-23-2019, 06:44 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-22-2019, 10:21 PM)JackCity Wrote: Because it was an illogical question. Have you ever considered why the NFL views RB as the most replaceable position on offense or defense? 

Positional value not mattering is how you end up with a punter in the 3rd or a kicker in the 2nd like the Bucs. Those GMs ignored the value of the position and ended up with two of the worst picks in NFL history.

And no i think Hockenson is going to be a very good player and I'd be happy to have him. Just would have other players ahead of him as they are also going to be very good and play much more valuable spots (QB included but isn't going to happen). It's not like Fournette where we took a RB at #4 in the deepest class of all time when we desperately needed a QB and realistically could have taken one

Where did I say positional value doesn't matter?  Where did Tom say that?  Now you are just making stuff up.  This is fun, a kicker or punter in the first 3 rounds is an idiotic move.
I didn't say you or Tom said it. But when you take a RB like Fournette at #4 overall it shows you have a clear misunderstanding of it. It's a decision thats still haunting us today.
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#67
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 07:27 AM by flgatorsandjags.)

(04-23-2019, 07:11 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 06:44 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Where did I say positional value doesn't matter?  Where did Tom say that?  Now you are just making stuff up.  This is fun, a kicker or punter in the first 3 rounds is an idiotic move.
I didn't say you or Tom said it. But when you take a RB like Fournette at #4 overall it shows you have a clear misunderstanding of it. It's a decision thats still haunting us today.

It haunted us last year but not in 2017 or today.  We now have a good QB and hopefully LF can stay healthy and will be in the best shape of his career.  They just have to hit on their picks this year and we will be back in the AFC championship game is what it boils down to
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#68

(04-23-2019, 07:27 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:11 AM)JackCity Wrote: I didn't say you or Tom said it. But when you take a RB like Fournette at #4 overall it shows you have a clear misunderstanding of it. It's a decision thats still haunting us today.

It haunted us last year but not in 2017 or today.  We now have a good QB and hopefully LF can stay healthy and will be in the best shape of his career.  They just have to hit on their picks this year is what it boils down to

It still haunts us today which is why we have Foles on that deal Vs having one of the best young QBs in football on an extremely cheap deal a.k.a one of the best competitive advantages you can have in team building.
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#69

(04-23-2019, 07:29 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:27 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: It haunted us last year but not in 2017 or today.  We now have a good QB and hopefully LF can stay healthy and will be in the best shape of his career.  They just have to hit on their picks this year is what it boils down to

It still haunts us today which is why we have Foles on that deal Vs having one of the best young QBs in football on an extremely cheap deal a.k.a one of the best competitive advantages you can have in team building.
Meh, you can say that about every year.  Every other top 10 team missed on him too
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#70

sweet mercy I can't wait for the darft.
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#71
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 08:48 AM by JackCity.)

(04-23-2019, 07:44 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:29 AM)JackCity Wrote: It still haunts us today which is why we have Foles on that deal Vs having one of the best young QBs in football on an extremely cheap deal a.k.a one of the best competitive advantages you can have in team building.
Meh, you can say that about every year.  Every other top 10 team missed on him too

But you can very specifically say it about the Jaguars in 2017 with Blake Bortles as their QB, which is what they're talking about. Teams making bad draft decisions doesn't excuse us from ours.  

Its okay to say we messed up badly. I don't get the aversion to admitting fault other than pure homerism.

(04-23-2019, 07:07 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Positional value, need, BAP, who will help your team the most etc. should all be factors when making the pick not just 1 thing.  There are a lot of different things that factor in when making a pick.  Red flags and medical are a few more

Thats a given
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#72

(04-23-2019, 07:27 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:11 AM)JackCity Wrote: I didn't say you or Tom said it. But when you take a RB like Fournette at #4 overall it shows you have a clear misunderstanding of it. It's a decision thats still haunting us today.

It haunted us last year but not in 2017 or today.  We now have a good QB and hopefully LF can stay healthy and will be in the best shape of his career.  They just have to hit on their picks this year and we will be back in the AFC championship game is what it boils down to
You got some blind optimism there. AFC is loaded. It’s much more competitive now than it was in 2017. Chiefs, Pats, Chargers, Colts, Texans.... not to mention I think the Steelers will be better. Jets and Browns will also be improved.
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#73
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 09:19 AM by flgatorsandjags.)

(04-23-2019, 08:51 AM)Cleatwood Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:27 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: It haunted us last year but not in 2017 or today.  We now have a good QB and hopefully LF can stay healthy and will be in the best shape of his career.  They just have to hit on their picks this year and we will be back in the AFC championship game is what it boils down to
You got some blind optimism there. AFC is loaded. It’s much more competitive now than it was in 2017. Chiefs, Pats, Chargers, Colts, Texans.... not to mention I think the Steelers will be better. Jets and Browns will also be improved.
If we make the right picks we will be better too.  MJD agrees

(04-23-2019, 08:44 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 07:44 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Meh, you can say that about every year.  Every other top 10 team missed on him too

But you can very specifically say it about the Jaguars in 2017 with Blake Bortles as their QB, which is what they're talking about. Teams making bad draft decisions doesn't excuse us from ours.  

Its okay to say we messed up badly. I don't get the aversion to admitting fault other than pure homerism.

(04-23-2019, 07:07 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Positional value, need, BAP, who will help your team the most etc. should all be factors when making the pick not just 1 thing.  There are a lot of different things that factor in when making a pick.  Red flags and medical are a few more

Thats a given
Like I said, you can pretty much say that about every year.  We have messed up on all the drafts except 2016 really.  2014 was good but we missed on our QB.  Should of taken Carr or Jimmy in the 2nd if we wanted a QB.

You say it's a given but it seems like you don't understand, there is a lot more to it than positional value
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#74

(04-23-2019, 09:15 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 08:51 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: You got some blind optimism there. AFC is loaded. It’s much more competitive now than it was in 2017. Chiefs, Pats, Chargers, Colts, Texans.... not to mention I think the Steelers will be better. Jets and Browns will also be improved.
If we make the right picks we will be better too.  MJD agrees

(04-23-2019, 08:44 AM)JackCity Wrote: But you can very specifically say it about the Jaguars in 2017 with Blake Bortles as their QB, which is what they're talking about. Teams making bad draft decisions doesn't excuse us from ours.  

Its okay to say we messed up badly. I don't get the aversion to admitting fault other than pure homerism.


Thats a given
Like I said, you can pretty much say that about every year.  We have messed up on all the drafts except 2016 really.  2014 was good but we missed on our QB.  Should of taken Carr or Jimmy in the 2nd if we wanted a QB.

You say it's a given but it seems like you don't understand, there is a lot more to it than positional value

That doesn't excuse it. 

And yeah I've already mentioned that ad nauseam. Its not news to anyone, we've had multiple discussions on everything that goes into a draft pick, its not just BAP or need or picking a valuable position. The Fournette pick was a failure in draft strategy and team building
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#75

(04-23-2019, 09:38 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 09:15 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: If we make the right picks we will be better too.  MJD agrees

Like I said, you can pretty much say that about every year.  We have messed up on all the drafts except 2016 really.  2014 was good but we missed on our QB.  Should of taken Carr or Jimmy in the 2nd if we wanted a QB.

You say it's a given but it seems like you don't understand, there is a lot more to it than positional value

That doesn't excuse it. 

And yeah I've already mentioned that ad nauseam. Its not news to anyone, we've had multiple discussions on everything that goes into a draft pick, its not just BAP or need or picking a valuable position. The Fournette pick was a failure in draft strategy and team building
It seems like you are just now figuring this out.  


Yep and so was almost every other 1st round pick over the last 15 years.  Taking Matt Jones over A Rod was a horrible pick.  Shocking news
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#76

(04-23-2019, 09:45 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 09:38 AM)JackCity Wrote: That doesn't excuse it. 

And yeah I've already mentioned that ad nauseam. Its not news to anyone, we've had multiple discussions on everything that goes into a draft pick, its not just BAP or need or picking a valuable position. The Fournette pick was a failure in draft strategy and team building
It seems like you are just now figuring this out.  


Yep and so was almost every other 1st round pick over the last 15 years.  Taking Matt Jones over A Rod was a horrible pick.  Shocking news

No, its been mentioned quite a bit by myself over the years, especially vs BAP drafting truthers.  

Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?
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#77

(04-23-2019, 10:20 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 09:45 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: It seems like you are just now figuring this out.  


Yep and so was almost every other 1st round pick over the last 15 years.  Taking Matt Jones over A Rod was a horrible pick.  Shocking news

No, its been mentioned quite a bit by myself over the years, especially vs BAP drafting truthers.  

Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?
Coughlin.
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#78

(04-23-2019, 10:20 AM)JackCity Wrote: Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?

I think he was the top choice for both of them. Coughlin for obvious reasons, and Caldwell because he theoretically was going to help save Bortles from busting.
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#79

(04-23-2019, 10:20 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 09:45 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: It seems like you are just now figuring this out.  


Yep and so was almost every other 1st round pick over the last 15 years.  Taking Matt Jones over A Rod was a horrible pick.  Shocking news

No, its been mentioned quite a bit by myself over the years, especially vs BAP drafting truthers.  

Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?

I think the f.o. overestimated the quality of their o-line and it's depth, failed to recognize Fournette's inability to create, and placed too much faith in Bortles to hold up his end of a "balanced attack." 

Poor perspective on all three of those issues led to the misplaced audacity of taking a RB at #4.

( the Coughlin vs Caldwell speculation completely aside here ^ No clue if it was really a "coughlin pick" - I'm assuming it was a consensus )
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#80
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 11:02 AM by flgatorsandjags.)

(04-23-2019, 10:20 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 09:45 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: It seems like you are just now figuring this out.  


Yep and so was almost every other 1st round pick over the last 15 years.  Taking Matt Jones over A Rod was a horrible pick.  Shocking news

No, its been mentioned quite a bit by myself over the years, especially vs BAP drafting truthers.  

Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?
Believing in Bortles.  I think that was one of the things that helped get Coughlin a job.  If he came in saying he wanted a new QB I don't think he would of got hired   I think he told Khan and Dave that he could succeed with Bortles at QB.  That said Bortles never really improved and just isn't good enough.

(04-23-2019, 10:38 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-23-2019, 10:20 AM)JackCity Wrote: No, its been mentioned quite a bit by myself over the years, especially vs BAP drafting truthers.  

Ok good we're getting somewhere now. So what do you think was the flaw that led them to the failed Fournette pick, in your opinion?

I think the f.o. overestimated the quality of their o-line and it's depth, failed to recognize Fournette's inability to create, and placed too much faith in Bortles to hold up his end of a "balanced attack." 

Poor perspective on all three of those issues led to the misplaced audacity of taking a RB at #4.

( the Coughlin vs Caldwell speculation completely aside here ^ No clue if it was really a "coughlin pick" - I'm assuming it was a consensus )

This too, to much faith in that oline and should of take McCaffrey if they wanted a RB in the first
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