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Disappointed with Allen over Hockenson?

#41

(02-02-2020, 03:45 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-02-2020, 03:31 PM)enigma Wrote: HELL NO I'm not disappointed.

In fact, we got incredibly lucky where Allen dropped to us.

I'll take Josh Allen all day over TJ.

This thread was started before last season started. I dont think anyone is disappointed now after the season Allen had.  The question is would you trade this years 9th pick for Hockenson?

Nope...
Brown, Kinlaw, Okudah, Jeudy, Thomas, one of these guys will be available at 9 and all of them are a better player for us and/or bigger need than Hock at this point.
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#42

(02-06-2020, 03:30 PM)Kane Wrote:
(02-02-2020, 03:45 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: This thread was started before last season started. I dont think anyone is disappointed now after the season Allen had.  The question is would you trade this years 9th pick for Hockenson?

Nope...
Brown, Kinlaw, Okudah, Jeudy, Thomas, one of these guys will be available at 9 and all of them are a better player for us and/or bigger need than Hock at this point.
I'd argue TE is the biggest need on the team behind NT.  TE is definitely a bigger need than WR
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#43

(02-06-2020, 03:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:30 PM)Kane Wrote: Nope...
Brown, Kinlaw, Okudah, Jeudy, Thomas, one of these guys will be available at 9 and all of them are a better player for us and/or bigger need than Hock at this point.
I'd argue TE is the biggest need on the team behind NT.  TE is definitely a bigger need than WR

But we can address TE in this draft with a mid round pick.
And we still have to see what we have in Oliver. And I really liked what James O was doing with Minshew before his injury.

I still wouldn't trade #9 overall this year for Hock because even if you think TE is a bigger need than CB or OT, Kinlaw and Brown (NT/DT) are a bigger need than TE
And the value of a guy like Okudah or top OT prospect sliding to 9 is too good to pass up.
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#44

(02-06-2020, 04:00 PM)Kane Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: I'd argue TE is the biggest need on the team behind NT.  TE is definitely a bigger need than WR

But we can address TE in this draft with a mid round pick.
And we still have to see what we have in Oliver. And I really liked what James O was doing with Minshew before his injury.

I still wouldn't trade #9 overall this year for Hock because even if you think TE is a bigger need than CB or OT, Kinlaw and Brown (NT/DT) are a bigger need than TE
And the value of a guy like Okudah or top OT prospect sliding to 9 is too good to pass up.

WR is much deeper than TE, you can address WR with a mid round pick and possibly a NT as well.  I think there is a very slim chance Brow is there as well as Okudah.  You already give up on Bryan who is still 23?
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#45
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2020, 10:55 AM by Cleatwood.)

(02-06-2020, 03:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:30 PM)Kane Wrote: Nope...
Brown, Kinlaw, Okudah, Jeudy, Thomas, one of these guys will be available at 9 and all of them are a better player for us and/or bigger need than Hock at this point.
I'd argue TE is the biggest need on the team behind NT.  TE is definitely a bigger need than WR
It's all about value. Picking a TE in the top 10 or even top 20 is equivalent to taking a RB in the top 10 or 20. You can find them anywhere. In the top 10 TE receiving yards, not single one was a first rounder.

Trading a top 10 pick for a TE is just throwing away value when there will be players available at more valuable positions (CB, DT, OT)
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#46

(02-06-2020, 04:56 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 04:00 PM)Kane Wrote: But we can address TE in this draft with a mid round pick.
And we still have to see what we have in Oliver. And I really liked what James O was doing with Minshew before his injury.

I still wouldn't trade #9 overall this year for Hock because even if you think TE is a bigger need than CB or OT, Kinlaw and Brown (NT/DT) are a bigger need than TE
And the value of a guy like Okudah or top OT prospect sliding to 9 is too good to pass up.

WR is much deeper than TE, you can address WR with a mid round pick and possibly a NT as well.  I think there is a very slim chance Brow is there as well as Okudah.  You already give up on Bryan who is still 23?

Taven Bryan??
He's a solid rotational 3T but we need someone to replace Dareus.
Yes WR is much deeper than TE.. But you're dancing around my point... 

I'm not trading this years 9 for Hock because A) we're not "a tight end away" and 2) the guys that should be available at 9 are better fits, need and value, than a tight end who showed promise and then had a season ending injury.

I liked Hock coming into last years draft. I also thought we were closer to a playoff team than what we showed. We got holes all over now with Dareus exiting, Ramsey forcing his way out, LB issues, OL problems, and a possible divorce with Yannick..... TE isn't where we should be spending a top ten pick.
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#47

(02-07-2020, 11:12 AM)Kane Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 04:56 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: WR is much deeper than TE, you can address WR with a mid round pick and possibly a NT as well.  I think there is a very slim chance Brow is there as well as Okudah.  You already give up on Bryan who is still 23?

Taven Bryan??
He's a solid rotational 3T but we need someone to replace Dareus.
Yes WR is much deeper than TE.. But you're dancing around my point... 

I'm not trading this years 9 for Hock because A) we're not "a tight end away" and 2) the guys that should be available at 9 are better fits, need and value, than a tight end who showed promise and then had a season ending injury.

I liked Hock coming into last years draft. I also thought we were closer to a playoff team than what we showed. We got holes all over now with Dareus exiting, Ramsey forcing his way out, LB issues, OL problems, and a possible divorce with Yannick..... TE isn't where we should be spending a top ten pick.

Kinlaw is a great player and one of the best players in the draft but is he a NT?
Reply

#48

(02-07-2020, 02:44 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 11:12 AM)Kane Wrote: Taven Bryan??
He's a solid rotational 3T but we need someone to replace Dareus.
Yes WR is much deeper than TE.. But you're dancing around my point... 

I'm not trading this years 9 for Hock because A) we're not "a tight end away" and 2) the guys that should be available at 9 are better fits, need and value, than a tight end who showed promise and then had a season ending injury.

I liked Hock coming into last years draft. I also thought we were closer to a playoff team than what we showed. We got holes all over now with Dareus exiting, Ramsey forcing his way out, LB issues, OL problems, and a possible divorce with Yannick..... TE isn't where we should be spending a top ten pick.

Kinlaw is a great player and one of the best players in the draft but is he a NT?
Who cares if he's a NT?

You don't draft a player at #9 just because they are a NT. Kinlaw has Jones from the Chiefs upside.
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#49

(02-07-2020, 02:49 PM)Cleatwood Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 02:44 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Kinlaw is a great player and one of the best players in the draft but is he a NT?
Who cares if he's a NT?

You don't draft a player at #9 just because they are a NT. Kinlaw has Jones from the Chiefs upside.

He said we need someone to replace Dareus I think if we draft Kinlaw he would start 3 tech and I'd still try to sign or draft a NT.  If Bryan improves it's a good problem to have and you can play both inside on passing downs.  Kinlaws upside is higher than Jones I'm.  The sky is the limit for that guy, not sure if I've ever seen a guy 6'6" 310lbs bust through the line as quick as him and move like that.  When he bull rushed the Alabama guard back into the QB, was impressive.
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#50

(02-05-2020, 06:39 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-05-2020, 01:35 PM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: Just lol at anyone who is willing to give #9 for Hockenson

You dont want a top TE?

Sure but I remember reading some time during the season that both Fant and Hockenson have been disappointments (not busts just that they haven't been as good as people expected). And with those stats and those games played no one should be willing to give them a top 10 pick for Hockenson.  Our #20 for Hockenson? maybe, but not for #9.
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#51

(02-06-2020, 03:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:30 PM)Kane Wrote: Nope...
Brown, Kinlaw, Okudah, Jeudy, Thomas, one of these guys will be available at 9 and all of them are a better player for us and/or bigger need than Hock at this point.
I'd argue TE is the biggest need on the team behind NT.  TE is definitely a bigger need than WR

The Ravens drafted Hayden Hurst in one, then Mark Andrews (three, same year) and Nick Boyle (five, 2015) both jumped ahead of himon the depth chart. George Kittle was a fifth-round pick. Austin Hooper was undrafted. The same thing that happened with running backs is about to happen with TEs. A bunch of mid-round guys are successful, so teams start reaching in one to grab a guy.

If you need a TE, wait until the second or third round. You'll find a guy with the same odds of success as a guy in one, but with a much lower downside if he busts.
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#52

(02-07-2020, 02:44 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 11:12 AM)Kane Wrote: Taven Bryan??
He's a solid rotational 3T but we need someone to replace Dareus.
Yes WR is much deeper than TE.. But you're dancing around my point... 

I'm not trading this years 9 for Hock because A) we're not "a tight end away" and 2) the guys that should be available at 9 are better fits, need and value, than a tight end who showed promise and then had a season ending injury.

I liked Hock coming into last years draft. I also thought we were closer to a playoff team than what we showed. We got holes all over now with Dareus exiting, Ramsey forcing his way out, LB issues, OL problems, and a possible divorce with Yannick..... TE isn't where we should be spending a top ten pick.

Kinlaw is a great player and one of the best players in the draft but is he a NT?

Everything I've read and heard says he can play both 1T and 3T
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#53

Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson. Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB
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#54

(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson.  Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

The problem is that he is getting no help at all. You normally need at least one more pass rusher to take pressure off your premier guy, so he isn't facing double teams. Chaisson has been an unmitigated failure and our 3 guys up front have improved the run defense, but they just don't get any pressure when it comes to rushing the passer. Add that to the fact that for some God forsaken reason, we keep dropping Allen into coverage, instead of having him rush the passer. I don't know how many times I watched this team drop Allen into coverage last night. I nearly lost my mind. Why are we doing this? He's our only pass rushing threat! It's just a perfect storm of failure and most of it lies with the coaches and management. We need to get another pass rusher opposite Allen and we need to quit dropping him in coverage. Once this is done, I believe he will regain his 2019 form. The talent is there, we just aren't using it correctly.
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#55
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2021, 10:19 AM by flgatorsandjags. Edited 1 time in total.)

(10-01-2021, 09:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson.  Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

The problem is that he is getting no help at all. You normally need at least one more pass rusher to take pressure off your premier guy, so he isn't facing double teams. Chaisson has been an unmitigated failure and our 3 guys up front have improved the run defense, but they just don't get any pressure when it comes to rushing the passer. Add that to the fact that for some God forsaken reason, we keep dropping Allen into coverage, instead of having him rush the passer. I don't know how many times I watched this team drop Allen into coverage last night. I nearly lost my mind. Why are we doing this? He's our only pass rushing threat! It's just a perfect storm of failure and most of it lies with the coaches and management. We need to get another pass rusher opposite Allen and we need to quit dropping him in coverage. Once this is done, I believe he will regain his 2019 form. The talent is there, we just aren't using it correctly.

Allen isn't getting double teamed. Teams aren't double teaming Allen. Almost every time I see him rushing the passer it's one on one and hes not doing much. You see him getting double teed alot?
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#56

(10-01-2021, 10:15 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: The problem is that he is getting no help at all. You normally need at least one more pass rusher to take pressure off your premier guy, so he isn't facing double teams. Chaisson has been an unmitigated failure and our 3 guys up front have improved the run defense, but they just don't get any pressure when it comes to rushing the passer. Add that to the fact that for some God forsaken reason, we keep dropping Allen into coverage, instead of having him rush the passer. I don't know how many times I watched this team drop Allen into coverage last night. I nearly lost my mind. Why are we doing this? He's our only pass rushing threat! It's just a perfect storm of failure and most of it lies with the coaches and management. We need to get another pass rusher opposite Allen and we need to quit dropping him in coverage. Once this is done, I believe he will regain his 2019 form. The talent is there, we just aren't using it correctly.

Allen isn't getting double teamed. Teams aren't double teaming Allen.  Almost every time I see him rushing the passer it's one on one and hes not doing much.  You see him getting double teed alot?

It's pretty hard for Allen to get to the QB, when this stupid coaching staff opts for him to drop into coverage instead. They did it over and over last night.
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#57

(10-01-2021, 09:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson.  Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

The problem is that he is getting no help at all. You normally need at least one more pass rusher to take pressure off your premier guy, so he isn't facing double teams. Chaisson has been an unmitigated failure and our 3 guys up front have improved the run defense, but they just don't get any pressure when it comes to rushing the passer. Add that to the fact that for some God forsaken reason, we keep dropping Allen into coverage, instead of having him rush the passer. I don't know how many times I watched this team drop Allen into coverage last night. I nearly lost my mind. Why are we doing this? He's our only pass rushing threat! It's just a perfect storm of failure and most of it lies with the coaches and management. We need to get another pass rusher opposite Allen and we need to quit dropping him in coverage. Once this is done, I believe he will regain his 2019 form. The talent is there, we just aren't using it correctly.

This defense needs a superstar.  Anywhere.  Cornerback, safety, pass rusher, linebacker, anywhere.  One real game-changing stud would make all of the other 10 guys look good.  So many teams have that one guy who dominates from one spot and allows everyone else to spread out and not worry about that one spot.
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#58
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2021, 10:35 AM by flgatorsandjags. Edited 1 time in total.)

(10-01-2021, 10:21 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 10:15 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Allen isn't getting double teamed. Teams aren't double teaming Allen.  Almost every time I see him rushing the passer it's one on one and hes not doing much.  You see him getting double teed alot?

It's pretty hard for Allen to get to the QB, when this stupid coaching staff opts for him to drop into coverage instead. They did it over and over last night.

He did drop in coverage some but when he does rush the passer he gets stone walled from what I have seen.  I don't think teams are to concerned about Allen where they want to double him.  I have been specifically watching him these last few games to just see where he is at and what kind of impact he's making on our dline.  He hasn't looked any better than Chaisson imo

(10-01-2021, 10:25 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: The problem is that he is getting no help at all. You normally need at least one more pass rusher to take pressure off your premier guy, so he isn't facing double teams. Chaisson has been an unmitigated failure and our 3 guys up front have improved the run defense, but they just don't get any pressure when it comes to rushing the passer. Add that to the fact that for some God forsaken reason, we keep dropping Allen into coverage, instead of having him rush the passer. I don't know how many times I watched this team drop Allen into coverage last night. I nearly lost my mind. Why are we doing this? He's our only pass rushing threat! It's just a perfect storm of failure and most of it lies with the coaches and management. We need to get another pass rusher opposite Allen and we need to quit dropping him in coverage. Once this is done, I believe he will regain his 2019 form. The talent is there, we just aren't using it correctly.

This defense needs a superstar.  Anywhere.  Cornerback, safety, pass rusher, linebacker, anywhere.  One real game-changing stud would make all of the other 10 guys look good.  So many teams have that one guy who dominates from one spot and allows everyone else to spread out and not worry about that one spot.
Agree 100% we need Blu chip players/ superstars.  I'm going BPA regardless of position.  If Kyle Hamilton is the BPA when we pick I'm taking him every though I don't think safety is that much of a need and I like our safeties, none are stars though and we need stars
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#59

(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson.  Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

Hock has had an in his (maybe declining) prime Stafford and a former Super Bowl starting QB throwing to him.

Allen has had Dwayne Smoot and K'Lavon Chiasson helping draw attention away from him, and till now an offense that never allowed the D to rest or play with a lead.

comparing apples and octopi.
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#60

(10-01-2021, 11:05 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson.  Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

Hock has had an in his (maybe declining) prime Stafford and a former Super Bowl starting QB throwing to him.

Allen has had Dwayne Smoot and K'Lavon Chiasson helping draw attention away from him, and till now an offense that never allowed the D to rest or play with a lead.

comparing apples and octopi.

Allen isn't being doubled.  Teams arent doubling Allen because they fear his pass sush when he hasn't really showed anything in a couple years.  Allen is the 7th overall pick though and he should be drawing double teams to open things up for the other guy but Allen can't even win his 1 on 1 matchups.

Hockenson helps make the other players around him better like the good to great players do
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