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Upper · 10-04-2021, 10:24 AM

(10-01-2021, 10:21 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: It's pretty hard for Allen to get to the QB, when this stupid coaching staff opts for him to drop into coverage instead. They did it over and over last night.

https://twitter.com/A_Train_92/status/14...8458443776

(10-01-2021, 11:05 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(10-01-2021, 09:14 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Was the wrong pick once again taking Allen over Hockenson. Hockenson is one of the premier TEs in this game vs a pass rusher that can't get to the QB

Hock has had an in his (maybe declining) prime Stafford and a former Super Bowl starting QB throwing to him.

Allen has had Dwayne Smoot and K'Lavon Chiasson helping draw attention away from him, and till now an offense that never allowed the D to rest or play with a lead.

comparing apples and octopi.

Unfortunately, I agree with flgators in this case. Allen isn't seeing double teams, he isn't getting chipped, they aren't rolling pockets away from him. The lack of pass rush around him hasn't caused Allen to get extra attention. He is simply losing his 1v1s...and the tackles he has faced haven't exactly been top notch either. Dude needs to improve big time.

Kane · 10-20-2021, 04:39 PM

I don't think so. At the time Allen was supposed to be gone iirc, he was a stud pass rusher. We took BAP and got value at a position of need.
He had a great rookie year and our roster around him hasn't gotten better.

I will say Hock is looking great and probably is even better with a different QB. Goff is not good.

RicoTx · 10-20-2021, 05:36 PM

(10-20-2021, 04:39 PM)Kane Wrote: I don't think so. At the time Allen was supposed to be gone iirc, he was a stud pass rusher. We took BAP and got value at a position of need.
He had a great rookie year and our roster around him hasn't gotten better.

I will say Hock is looking great and probably is even better with a different QB. Goff is not good.

Everybody has perfect 20/20 hindsight. Nobody could believe Allen was there and were ecstatic when we got him.

Would Hockenson look close to as good with the crap we've had at QB? I doubt it.

Kane · 10-21-2021, 11:45 AM

(10-20-2021, 05:36 PM)RicoTx Wrote:
(10-20-2021, 04:39 PM)Kane Wrote: I don't think so. At the time Allen was supposed to be gone iirc, he was a stud pass rusher. We took BAP and got value at a position of need.
He had a great rookie year and our roster around him hasn't gotten better.

I will say Hock is looking great and probably is even better with a different QB. Goff is not good.

Everybody has perfect 20/20 hindsight. Nobody could believe Allen was there and were ecstatic when we got him.

Would Hockenson look close to as good with the crap we've had at QB? I doubt it.

Yeah who knows. Hock seems to be trying to break out with Goff at QB, if he had Lawrence he'd probably be having a better year.
But I still take elite pass rush possibility over possible great TE.

With Campbell and Yannick and that DL Allen was ballin. Then we purge our roster he gets an injury and then switch to a 34... I'm not giving up on Allen.
Even though he isn't getting a bunch of sacks he's still getting a lot of pressure and affecting plays.
I believe with better play on the back end and/or more help from other rushers/DL he can and will get back to double digit sack guy.
He already matched his sack total from last year in 2 fewer games played and has more tackles. People talking like he's a bust really make me question their football knowledge

jessepeck1213 · 10-22-2021, 04:53 AM

If you buy into PFF stats Allen has had a far superior year to hock.

Mikey · 10-22-2021, 09:15 AM

(10-22-2021, 04:53 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: If you buy into PFF stats Allen has had a far superior year to hock.

....Allen isn't trying to catch passes from Jared Goff

jessepeck1213 · 10-22-2021, 09:33 AM

(10-22-2021, 09:15 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 04:53 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: If you buy into PFF stats Allen has had a far superior year to hock.

....Allen isn't trying to catch passes from Jared Goff

Hock isn't trying to pass rush with a secondary that can't cover their assignments for more than 1 second. It's all relative.

DTWD4∞ · 10-22-2021, 11:46 AM

Allen has performed better than Hock career wise so far. The biggest setback for Allen, by a large margin, is the loss of Calais Campbell. ditto for the entire defense. Yan was not nearly as good here without Campbell either. Now, I fear, we need a DE/DT of his level to bring balance to the defense and guys like him do not grow on trees. Another nail in the prior regime's coffin. Gipson, Church and even Bouye I could see but not lCalais.. We haven't even been a shadow of our former defense without him. JMO

Kane · 10-22-2021, 02:44 PM

(10-22-2021, 09:33 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 09:15 AM)Mikey Wrote: ....Allen isn't trying to catch passes from Jared Goff

Hock isn't trying to pass rush with a secondary that can't cover their assignments for more than 1 second. It's all relative.

Boom. Mic drop

Mikey · 10-25-2021, 10:56 AM

(10-22-2021, 02:44 PM)Kane Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 09:33 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: Hock isn't trying to pass rush with a secondary that can't cover their assignments for more than 1 second. It's all relative.

Boom. Mic drop

Apologies, my post was more meant to jab at Goff being trash than anything Hock or Allen have done this year.

Allen's best season was when Calais was garnering attention from opposing lines. Hock's best performance came when Stat Padford was throwing the ball. I guess they both need help to shine.

Kane · 10-25-2021, 12:54 PM

(10-25-2021, 10:56 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 02:44 PM)Kane Wrote: Boom. Mic drop

Apologies, my post was more meant to jab at Goff being trash than anything Hock or Allen have done this year.

Allen's best season was when Calais was garnering attention from opposing lines. Hock's best performance came when Stat Padford was throwing the ball. I guess they both need help to shine.

Indeed. Superstars fade when everything around them sucks.
But Allen's 2nd season was married by injury. 3rd year he's ballin even with Campbell and Yan. But the sack numbers aren't there yet. But he's getting a lot of pressure.

Hock is definitely being held back by Goff but his talent is there, he's basically their only offensive weapon.
I'd take Allen over Hock 100 times out of 100 though.

scottyg · 10-25-2021, 02:33 PM

(10-22-2021, 11:46 AM)DTWD4∞ Wrote: Allen has performed better than Hock career wise so far. The biggest setback for Allen, by a large margin, is the loss of Calais Campbell. ditto for the entire defense. Yan was not nearly as good here without Campbell either. Now, I fear, we need a DE/DT of his level to bring balance to the defense and guys like him do not grow on trees. Another nail in the prior regime's coffin. Gipson, Church and even Bouye I could see but not lCalais.. We haven't even been a shadow of our former defense without him. JMO

Allen would benefit just as much with even just a little bit of pressure up the middle. There were a few times during the Miami game where he was getting around the left tackle but just missed Tua, because Tua had all kinds of room to step up in the pocket.

DTWD4∞ · 10-26-2021, 11:39 AM

(10-25-2021, 02:33 PM)scottyg Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 11:46 AM)DTWD4∞ Wrote: Allen has performed better than Hock career wise so far. The biggest setback for Allen, by a large margin, is the loss of Calais Campbell. ditto for the entire defense. Yan was not nearly as good here without Campbell either. Now, I fear, we need a DE/DT of his level to bring balance to the defense and guys like him do not grow on trees. Another nail in the prior regime's coffin. Gipson, Church and even Bouye I could see but not lCalais.. We haven't even been a shadow of our former defense without him. JMO

Allen would benefit just as much with even just a little bit of pressure up the middle. There were a few times during the Miami game where he was getting around the left tackle but just missed Tua, because Tua had all kinds of room to step up in the pocket.

Very good point. Hopefully Tufele gets healthy and can begin to contribute. A rotation of him and Hamilton in the middle would be nice to watch IMO. Allen did have his best game of the season against the Fins for sure.

D6 · 10-26-2021, 12:38 PM

Like most other people that follow the NFL Draft closely, I was surprised that Josh Allen was available with pick # 7 in the 2019 Draft. If the Jaguars would have gone in another direction, Allen would have been my preference for the Lions with pick # 8. T.J. Hockenson became my player preference after the Jags selected Allen, though a viable trade down offer would have been ideal.

All things considering, I'm happy with the way Hockenson is progressing. He earned a Pro Bowl berth in his 2nd season. His receiving contribution / performance level was Pro Bowl caliber.

Early this season, Hockenson was performing at a Pro Bowl level again, with him finally providing the caliber of run blocking that I was anticipating from him based on his play with Iowa. His transition to the NFL as a run blocker was more difficult than I anticipated. As a receiver, he was taking his game to an even higher level. The chemistry Hock was developing with Jared Goff was a huge positive.

A knee injury that Hockenson has dealing with has limited his practice time for over a month. This, combined with the Lions problematic WR situation ( Tyrrell Williams has been out since the middle of the 3rd QTR of the season opener vs. SF. with a concussion. Emerging WR Quintez Cephus suffered a broken collarbone late in the 2nd QTR in week # 5 at Minnesota ) that has become even more pronounced because of injuries, has led to Hockenson's receiving numbers being modest at best after a fast start this season. The injuries to the top 2 veteran Offensive Lineman on the team. ( C Frank Ragnow and LT Taylor Decker ) also has been a contributing factor in Hock's receiving numbers not remaining close to the level of the first two games.

If Hock is relatively healthy next season, I think that there's a good chance he will ascend to a top 3 caliber NFL TE, as the WR unit will be substantially upgraded and the Lions Offensive Line situation should be much better.

Kane · 10-26-2021, 10:42 PM

(10-26-2021, 12:38 PM)D6 Wrote: Like most other people that follow the NFL Draft closely, I was surprised that Josh Allen was available with pick # 7 in the 2019 Draft. If the Jaguars would have gone in another direction, Allen would have been my preference for the Lions with pick # 8. T.J. Hockenson became my player preference after the Jags selected Allen, though a viable trade down offer would have been ideal.

All things considering, I'm happy with the way Hockenson is progressing. He earned a Pro Bowl berth in his 2nd season. His receiving contribution / performance level was Pro Bowl caliber.

Early this season, Hockenson was performing at a Pro Bowl level again, with him finally providing the caliber of run blocking that I was anticipating from him based on his play with Iowa. His transition to the NFL as a run blocker was more difficult than I anticipated. As a receiver, he was taking his game to an even higher level. The chemistry Hock was developing with Jared Goff was a huge positive.

A knee injury that Hockenson has dealing with has limited his practice time for over a month. This, combined with the Lions problematic WR situation ( Tyrrell Williams has been out since the middle of the 3rd QTR of the season opener vs. SF. with a concussion. Emerging WR Quintez Cephus suffered a broken collarbone late in the 2nd QTR in week # 5 at Minnesota ) that has become even more pronounced because of injuries, has led to Hockenson's receiving numbers being modest at best after a fast start this season. The injuries to the top 2 veteran Offensive Lineman on the team. ( C Frank Ragnow and LT Taylor Decker ) also has been a contributing factor in Hock's receiving numbers not remaining close to the level of the first two games.

If Hock is relatively healthy next season, I think that there's a good chance he will ascend to a top 3 caliber NFL TE, as the WR unit will be substantially upgraded and the Lions Offensive Line situation should be much better.

I hear you on all that. But certainly Goff has something to do with him not being even better right?

Goff just seems destined to be the next failed #1 overall pick. He was masked by Mcvays scheme in LA it seems like.

That SB appearance seems like decades ago at this point

D6 · 10-27-2021, 12:13 AM

(10-26-2021, 10:42 PM)Kane Wrote:
(10-26-2021, 12:38 PM)D6 Wrote: Like most other people that follow the NFL Draft closely, I was surprised that Josh Allen was available with pick # 7 in the 2019 Draft. If the Jaguars would have gone in another direction, Allen would have been my preference for the Lions with pick # 8. T.J. Hockenson became my player preference after the Jags selected Allen, though a viable trade down offer would have been ideal.

All things considering, I'm happy with the way Hockenson is progressing. He earned a Pro Bowl berth in his 2nd season. His receiving contribution / performance level was Pro Bowl caliber.

Early this season, Hockenson was performing at a Pro Bowl level again, with him finally providing the caliber of run blocking that I was anticipating from him based on his play with Iowa. His transition to the NFL as a run blocker was more difficult than I anticipated. As a receiver, he was taking his game to an even higher level. The chemistry Hock was developing with Jared Goff was a huge positive.

A knee injury that Hockenson has dealing with has limited his practice time for over a month. This, combined with the Lions problematic WR situation ( Tyrrell Williams has been out since the middle of the 3rd QTR of the season opener vs. SF. with a concussion. Emerging WR Quintez Cephus suffered a broken collarbone late in the 2nd QTR in week # 5 at Minnesota ) that has become even more pronounced because of injuries, has led to Hockenson's receiving numbers being modest at best after a fast start this season. The injuries to the top 2 veteran Offensive Lineman on the team. ( C Frank Ragnow and LT Taylor Decker ) also has been a contributing factor in Hock's receiving numbers not remaining close to the level of the first two games.

If Hock is relatively healthy next season, I think that there's a good chance he will ascend to a top 3 caliber NFL TE, as the WR unit will be substantially upgraded and the Lions Offensive Line situation should be much better.

I hear you on all that. But certainly Goff has something to do with him not being even better right?

Goff just seems destined to be the next failed #1 overall pick. He was masked by Mcvays scheme in LA it seems like.

That SB appearance seems like decades ago at this point

I think Jared Goff is a secondary reason why T.J. Hockenson hasn't been better in the passing game. Even with the issues at WR and on the Offensive Line, Goff needs to be more vertically oriented as a QB than he has been. Opposing Defenses don't respect the Lions vertical passing game anywhere near that was the case in the Matthew Stafford years with the team. That contributes to Hockenson being that much more of a focal point of opposing Defenses.

Seeing an opposing Safety very frequently in or near the box this season reminds me of the Barry Sanders era and is the antithesis of the Matthew Stafford era.

Upper · 10-27-2021, 07:56 PM

I suggested earlier when someone pointed out he had the slowest get off in the league that it might be because he was having to think because his role was so different. Hopefully that's all it was and these last two weeks of better get off is what we get going forward. He's definitely been MUCH improved.

https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/14...9526441990

flgatorsandjags · 10-31-2022, 03:32 PM

Did we draft the right guy?

Caldrac · 10-31-2022, 04:01 PM

(10-31-2022, 03:32 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Did we draft the right guy?

At that time? Yes. That front office was looking to potentially start grooming a replacement for Campbell and/or Ngakoue in 2019.

They had a 3rd RD pick from 2016 looking for a new deal entering his 4th year and being apart of Campbell's abilities off the edge as well from 2017 entering his third year on his deal.

Same reason they drafted Taven Bryan over a QB to replace Malik Jackson the year prior.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

flgatorsandjags · 10-31-2022, 04:07 PM

(10-31-2022, 04:01 PM)Caldrac Wrote:
(10-31-2022, 03:32 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Did we draft the right guy?
At that time? Yes. That front office was looking to potentially start grooming a replacement for Campbell and/or Ngakoue in 2019.

They had a 3rd RD pick from 2016 looking for a new deal entering his 4th year and being apart of Campbell's abilities off the edge as well from 2017 entering his third year on his deal.

Same reason they drafted Taven Bryan over a QB to replace Malik Jackson the year prior.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

TE was a bigger need than DE at the time. You never draft a guy just to fill a need or replace someone. You take the guy you feel is the best player. The reasons you gave doesn’t make it the right pick at the time