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2019 WR/TE discussion (merged)

#21
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2019, 03:13 PM by JackCity.)

(04-29-2019, 02:34 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 02:19 PM)JackCity Wrote: Not every team has a collection of skill players as bad as ours , most don't in fact so its more in our interest to take shots on WRs, especially when we have a dire need of a specific kind of WR.  They don't have to be world beaters, just one of the few critques you can pick out from our draft which was generally very good

Hakeem Butler and/or Jazz Ferguson would've added that missing contested catch piece. Oh well. I guess they want Chark to have every opportunity to be that guy.

Yeah there were plenty of options to try fill that role. Tyre Brady, the UDFA they picked up, has some of those traits but he also ran incredibly slow and the list of WRs to succeed with that profile is essentially nil.

DJ Charks archetype is a million miles away from big bodied possession receiver so planning on using him in that fashion would be a very poor choice, despite him being 6'3

(04-29-2019, 03:07 PM)knarnn Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 02:34 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: Hakeem Butler and/or Jazz Ferguson would've added that missing contested catch piece. Oh well. I guess they want Chark to have every opportunity to be that guy.

This is most certainly the case:

https://twitter.com/zach_goodall/status/...13218?s=17

A wildly askew evaluation from Tom, they couldn't be more different as players
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#22

(04-29-2019, 03:07 PM)knarnn Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 02:34 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: Hakeem Butler and/or Jazz Ferguson would've added that missing contested catch piece. Oh well. I guess they want Chark to have every opportunity to be that guy.

This is most certainly the case:

https://twitter.com/zach_goodall/status/...13218?s=17
As it should be. 

The kid has around 30 targets total and we’ve got folks writing him off already. 
I like his potential - and I get Foles/Flip will take advantage of his speed.
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#23

(04-29-2019, 03:14 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 03:07 PM)knarnn Wrote: This is most certainly the case:

https://twitter.com/zach_goodall/status/...13218?s=17
As it should be. 

The kid has around 30 targets total and we’ve got folks writing him off already. 
I like his potential - and I get Foles/Flip will take advantage of his speed.

In the Jeffrey role though?
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#24

(04-28-2019, 07:46 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-28-2019, 06:15 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: If you operate on the assumptions that Lee will be a non-factor and Chark won't make a step forward in development, then sure. 
I'm not assuming those things.

Even if Lee plays and Chark steps forward from last year I think its a bottom 10 unit
Bills, Dolphins, Pats (Edelman and?), Titans, Broncos, Giants, Skins... Yea you're probably right. The problem is how loaded a lot of these teams are at WR. It's kinda scary.

The Jags prioritize defense over offense so it's not a shock that our WRs aren't a top tier unit. However, how many teams are saying "Boy, I would love to have Jags CB room or Dline room."
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#25

(04-29-2019, 03:40 PM)Cleatwood Wrote:
(04-28-2019, 07:46 PM)JackCity Wrote: Even if Lee plays and Chark steps forward from last year I think its a bottom 10 unit
Bills, Dolphins, Pats (Edelman and?), Titans, Broncos, Giants, Skins... Yea you're probably right. The problem is how loaded a lot of these teams are at WR. It's kinda scary.

The Jags prioritize defense over offense so it's not a shock that our WRs aren't a top tier unit. However, how many teams are saying "Boy, I would love to have Jags CB room or Dline room."
I'd take the a few of those over ours for sure too. 

Yeah the vast majority of the league would readily swap their defense with ours. The issue is how good can we reasonably expect Foles to be with such a bad skill position group? Hopefully the line will live up to expectations and we can get the run game back or else..
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#26

(04-29-2019, 03:38 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 03:14 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: As it should be. 

The kid has around 30 targets total and we’ve got folks writing him off already. 
I like his potential - and I get Foles/Flip will take advantage of his speed.

In the Jeffrey role though?

They aren't going to square peg the kid. They can move him between X and Z and see which routes he accels with and determine what the DJ Chark role is.  Jeffrey has little to do with it. 

Likewise - I don't expect Oliver to be Ertz, but I expect the staff to determine what he does well within (or similar to) that framework and employ it. 

Just because Foles and Flip came from a program together and they know what Foles does well within the system doesn't mean they are going to Xerox Frank Reich's playbook and shove every Jaguar player into bad fits. 

If they do that, then DeFilippo was a bad hire.
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#27

(04-29-2019, 05:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 03:38 PM)JackCity Wrote: In the Jeffrey role though?

They aren't going to square peg the kid. They can move him between X and Z and see which routes he accels with and determine what the DJ Chark role is.  Jeffrey has little to do with it. 

Likewise - I don't expect Oliver to be Ertz, but I expect the staff to determine what he does well within (or similar to) that framework and employ it. 

Just because Foles and Flip came from a program together and they know what Foles does well within the system doesn't mean they are going to Xerox Frank Reich's playbook and shove every Jaguar player into bad fits. 

If they do that, then DeFilippo was a bad hire.

Thats what I'm saying, Chark in the Jeffrey role isn't something that realistically is going to happen as he's just not that type of player. It'd be like saying Fournette is going to play the Sproles role.
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#28

(04-29-2019, 04:23 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 03:40 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: Bills, Dolphins, Pats (Edelman and?), Titans, Broncos, Giants, Skins... Yea you're probably right. The problem is how loaded a lot of these teams are at WR. It's kinda scary.

The Jags prioritize defense over offense so it's not a shock that our WRs aren't a top tier unit. However, how many teams are saying "Boy, I would love to have Jags CB room or Dline room."
I'd take the a few of those over ours for sure too. 

Yeah the vast majority of the league would readily swap their defense with ours. The issue is how good can we reasonably expect Foles to be with such a bad skill position group? Hopefully the line will live up to expectations and we can get the run game back or else..

Is it really that bad though? This is pretty much the same WR group in 2017 that lead the Jags to the AFC championship game minus Hurns. The same group that helped Blake throw for 3600 yards and 21 TDs. I believe the plan is to return to that formula - efficient QB play, which shouldn’t be an issue with Foles and a more mature Westbrook/Chark/Cole, a strong running game, and a stout defense.
"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."
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#29

(04-29-2019, 05:26 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: They aren't going to square peg the kid. They can move him between X and Z and see which routes he accels with and determine what the DJ Chark role is.  Jeffrey has little to do with it. 

Likewise - I don't expect Oliver to be Ertz, but I expect the staff to determine what he does well within (or similar to) that framework and employ it. 

Just because Foles and Flip came from a program together and they know what Foles does well within the system doesn't mean they are going to Xerox Frank Reich's playbook and shove every Jaguar player into bad fits. 

If they do that, then DeFilippo was a bad hire.

Thats what I'm saying, Chark in the Jeffrey role isn't something that realistically is going to happen as he's just not that type of player. It'd be like saying Fournette is going to play the Sproles role.

Yeah.  You've got your mind made up on a 22 year old kid who's seen 30 NFL footballs thrown his way. 

I think it's unwise to assume you have his career path so well sorted out right now. 

I'm gonna give him a chance to make some play first. The Coughlin Q&A tweet is dated 6 weeks ago and we don't know the context. I'd not read so far into it to assume DeFilippo is going to poorly utilize Chark's skillset.
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#30
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2019, 05:38 PM by JackCity.)

(04-29-2019, 05:30 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:26 PM)JackCity Wrote: Thats what I'm saying, Chark in the Jeffrey role isn't something that realistically is going to happen as he's just not that type of player. It'd be like saying Fournette is going to play the Sproles role.

Yeah.  You've got your mind made up on a 22 year old kid who's seen 30 NFL footballs thrown his way. 

I think it's unwise to assume you have his career path so well sorted out right now. 

I'm gonna give him a chance to make some play first. The Coughlin Q&A tweet is dated 6 weeks ago and we don't know the context. I'd not read so far into it to assume DeFilippo is going to poorly utilize Chark's skillset.

wait what? I'm talking skillset and usage not talent or potential , i don't think you can glean much from last year about the latter. Thats a big jump from what I'm saying.

I also wasn't commenting on DeFilippo
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#31

(04-29-2019, 05:29 PM)knarnn Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 04:23 PM)JackCity Wrote: I'd take the a few of those over ours for sure too. 

Yeah the vast majority of the league would readily swap their defense with ours. The issue is how good can we reasonably expect Foles to be with such a bad skill position group? Hopefully the line will live up to expectations and we can get the run game back or else..

Is it really that bad though? This is pretty much the same WR group in 2017 that lead the Jags to the AFC championship game minus Hurns. The same group that helped Blake throw for 3600 yards and 21 TDs. I believe the plan is to return to that formula - efficient QB play, which shouldn’t be an issue with Foles and a more mature Westbrook/Chark/Cole, a strong running game, and a stout defense.

Compared to other teams yeah. I think Dede is easily the best of the bunch , the rest are all question marks this season, Lee isn't entering the year healthy and when he is healthy is very meh, who knows what Chark and Cole will look like. Conley is fine depth but thats about it. The hope is with Bortles gone and Foles in place he'll make everyone look better, which is very understandable, it just remains to be seen how good that actually is.  

Defense will still be strong, run game should be much better but the meat of our season will come down to how effective Foles and the passing attack can really be when we need it.
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#32

(04-29-2019, 05:36 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:30 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Yeah.  You've got your mind made up on a 22 year old kid who's seen 30 NFL footballs thrown his way. 

I think it's unwise to assume you have his career path so well sorted out right now. 

I'm gonna give him a chance to make some play first. The Coughlin Q&A tweet is dated 6 weeks ago and we don't know the context. I'd not read so far into it to assume DeFilippo is going to poorly utilize Chark's skillset.

wait what? I'm talking skillset and usage not talent or potential , i don't think you can glean much from last year about the latter. Thats a big jump from what I'm saying.

I also wasn't commenting on DeFilippo

Your comments on the WR corps as a whole and your ranking of it say something about what you think of his talent and potential. 

Perhaps I mistook your intention with the Jeffrey role post. Sorry about that.  Thought you were implying that he'd be thrust into that unsuccessfully. 

I don't think he'll be thrust into it at all (something we seem to agree DeFilippo is unlikely to do despite TC's comment) , and I don't think we know how unsuccessful he'd be in that role anyway as he's still so unproven. (Something you don't seem to agree with)
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#33

(04-29-2019, 05:51 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:36 PM)JackCity Wrote: wait what? I'm talking skillset and usage not talent or potential , i don't think you can glean much from last year about the latter. Thats a big jump from what I'm saying.

I also wasn't commenting on DeFilippo

Your comments on the WR corps as a whole and your ranking of it say something about what you think of his talent and potential. 

Perhaps I mistook your intention with the Jeffrey role post. Sorry about that.  Thought you were implying that he'd be thrust into that unsuccessfully. 

I don't think he'll be thrust into it at all (something we seem to agree DeFilippo is unlikely to do despite TC's comment) , and I don't think we know how unsuccessful he'd be in that role anyway as he's still so unproven. (Something you don't seem to agree with)

Of the group as a whole? Chark can have talent and potential while also being a question mark going into 2019, as we simply haven't seen enough to know what he is yet. When your most accomplished WR is Marqise Lee its fair to say there are some question marks about how good the group is going to be.  

Nah its okay ,was just commenting about that potential role in that offense (which we may not even be looking for) and how Charks skillset and traits aren't suited to it at all. DJ Chark playing like Alshon Jeffrey does would be a massive shock to everyone.
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#34

(04-29-2019, 06:06 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:51 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Your comments on the WR corps as a whole and your ranking of it say something about what you think of his talent and potential. 

Perhaps I mistook your intention with the Jeffrey role post. Sorry about that.  Thought you were implying that he'd be thrust into that unsuccessfully. 

I don't think he'll be thrust into it at all (something we seem to agree DeFilippo is unlikely to do despite TC's comment) , and I don't think we know how unsuccessful he'd be in that role anyway as he's still so unproven. (Something you don't seem to agree with)

Of the group as a whole? Chark can have talent and potential while also being a question mark going into 2019, as we simply haven't seen enough to know what he is yet. When your most accomplished WR is Marqise Lee its fair to say there are some question marks about how good the group is going to be.  

Nah its okay ,was just commenting about that potential role in that offense (which we may not even be looking for) and how Charks skillset and traits aren't suited to it at all. DJ Chark playing like Alshon Jeffrey does would be a massive shock to everyone.

Yes, it's fair to say there are question marks.
 (Westbrook is the only one we can feel really good and confident about atm) 
 But that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying it's one of the worst groups in the league. 

If Lee is back to good health relatively early in the season and Chark steps up, bottom ten is not where I'd put them. Especially if Cole miraculously finds his mojo again. 

Agreed on the Chark thing. It would be a sharp turn in skillset development/change for him at this point.
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#35

(04-29-2019, 06:13 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 06:06 PM)JackCity Wrote: Of the group as a whole? Chark can have talent and potential while also being a question mark going into 2019, as we simply haven't seen enough to know what he is yet. When your most accomplished WR is Marqise Lee its fair to say there are some question marks about how good the group is going to be.  

Nah its okay ,was just commenting about that potential role in that offense (which we may not even be looking for) and how Charks skillset and traits aren't suited to it at all. DJ Chark playing like Alshon Jeffrey does would be a massive shock to everyone.

Yes, it's fair to say there are question marks.
 (Westbrook is the only one we can feel really good and confident about atm) 
 But that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying it's one of the worst groups in the league. 

If Lee is back to good health relatively early in the season and Chark steps up, bottom ten is not where I'd put them. Especially if Cole miraculously finds his mojo again. 

Agreed on the Chark thing. It would be a sharp turn in skillset development/change for him at this point.

It is one of the worst groups in the league atm, bottom 10 for sure. Having so few accomplished players is a big part of that. I'd say the same about our tight end room even though I'm a big Josh Oliver fan.  

 Chark has potential for sure but that doesn't mean you credit him with currently being a good player. Cole has had one v promising year, followed by a year where he looked like a UDFA, my suspicion is he gets back on track, but again thats a question mark.  If Chark and Cole play well next season + Lee is back in good health and contributes well then I'm sure theyll be bumped up , but until we see that happens its up in the air.
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#36

(04-29-2019, 06:29 PM)JackCity Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 06:13 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Yes, it's fair to say there are question marks.
 (Westbrook is the only one we can feel really good and confident about atm) 
 But that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying it's one of the worst groups in the league. 

If Lee is back to good health relatively early in the season and Chark steps up, bottom ten is not where I'd put them. Especially if Cole miraculously finds his mojo again. 

Agreed on the Chark thing. It would be a sharp turn in skillset development/change for him at this point.

It is one of the worst groups in the league atm, bottom 10 for sure. Having so few accomplished players is a big part of that. I'd say the same about our tight end room even though I'm a big Josh Oliver fan.  

 Chark has potential for sure but that doesn't mean you credit him with currently being a good player. Cole has had one v promising year, followed by a year where he looked like a UDFA, my suspicion is he gets back on track, but again thats a question mark.  If Chark and Cole play well next season + Lee is back in good health and contributes well then I'm sure theyll be bumped up , but until we see that happens its up in the air.

We see it differently. 

I think Lee and Westbrook are good receivers capable of quite a lot of production.  
Do you think that ^ duo (healthy) is capable of 1550 yards and 10 TDs? I do. And that's the Jeffrey/Agholor total from 2018.
I think Chark is more likely to make impact than not to do so. He had a lot working against him last year and precious few opportunities. Both of those things are likely to change.
I'm 50/50 on Cole bouncing back and I haven't figured out Conley yet beyond the fact he's an option to play the X if Chark doesn't secure the position. 

Regardless of where that puts them in a league wide ranking (which is silly in the Spring months anyway) I think that they are good enough to win with. 


You and I (and most alert fans) are expecting Foles and Flip to lean on TEs and RBs in the pass game quite a bit. 

Should the combination of Oliver/Swaim/Fournette/Armstead/Cunningham get some similar percentage of attention in the pass game that Ertz/Goedert/Smallwood/Sproles/Clement got in philly, then that's going to account for a solid chunk of the passing production. (I'm sure it will be less statistically, but we have to imagine they'll try to utilize the concept)

This takes some onus away from the receivers behind Westbrook. If only one other receiver really emerges as a consistent chain mover for Foles, it's probably enough for them to be efficient until injury requires the next guy to step up.
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#37
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2019, 07:11 PM by flgatorsandjags.)

[Image: giphy.gif]

Best case scenario is if Cole returns to form and Chark improves, and Lee is 100%. Until then WR is a big question mark imo. Butler sure would of been nice added to this WR corps. They ask Del Rio today who is draft steal was and he said Kakeem Butler
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#38

(04-29-2019, 07:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [Image: giphy.gif]

Best case scenario is if Cole returns to form and Chark improves, and Lee is 100%.  Until then WR is a big question mark imo.  Butler sure would of been nice added to this WR corps.  They ask Del Rio today who is draft steal was and he said Kakeem Butler

Yeah, since you know, JDR is an expert at WR evaluation. I mean look at our WR squad from 2005-2011.
"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."
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#39

(04-29-2019, 08:03 PM)knarnn Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 07:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [Image: giphy.gif]

Best case scenario is if Cole returns to form and Chark improves, and Lee is 100%.  Until then WR is a big question mark imo.  Butler sure would of been nice added to this WR corps.  They ask Del Rio today who is draft steal was and he said Kakeem Butler

Yeah, since you know, JDR is an expert at WR evaluation. I mean look at our WR squad from 2005-2011.

I didnt know JDR was our GM
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#40

(04-29-2019, 08:12 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 08:03 PM)knarnn Wrote: Yeah, since you know, JDR is an expert at WR evaluation. I mean look at our WR squad from 2005-2011.

I didnt know JDR was our GM

He wasn’t. He and Shack Harris shared consensus on roster moves during his tenure prior to Gene Smith.
"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."
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