Jacksonville citizens: Downtown is dead and boring. No one lives there, no one goes there.

Investor: I want to invest in downtown.

Jacksonville citizens: Why bother? It's going to fail anyway.

Investor: I'll take my money elsewhere then.

Jacksonville citizens: Downtown is dead and boring. No one lives there, no one goes there.

So downtown potential investors do their due diligence based on message board feedback? Sound like horrible investors.

His post said nothing about a message board, and it does seem to represent a giant swath of opinion from residents of Jacksonville. I've heard some similar refrain of "people aren't ever going to frequent downtown" from people I know and meet at the beach, on the southside, in mandarin and elsewhere.  

I think it's real a shame that folks aren't supportive of the idea of a vital downtown riverfront.

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Jacksonville citizens: Downtown is dead and boring. No one lives there, no one goes there.

Investor: I want to invest in downtown.

Jacksonville citizens: Why bother? It's going to fail anyway. Ok great! Here's a tax subsidy to get you started.

Investor: I'll take my money elsewhere then. Wonderful, we'll get started right away!

(5 years later)
 
Jacksonville citizens: Downtown is dead and boring. No one lives there, no one goes there.

Different Investor: I want to invest in downtown.

Jacksonville citizens: Great! Here's a tax subsidy to tear down the half finished work the last group did and to get you started.

(5 years later)

Jacksonville citizens: Downtown is dead and boring. No one lives there, no one goes there. And it just gets worse with these half finished projects decaying everywhere. What ever happened to those grand plans for the Shipyards and the Landing, and Berkman Plaza, and...

FTFY.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Jacksonville needs downtown to develop. A vibrant downtown full of nightlife, family friendly activities, and riverside trails would greatly improve quality of life.

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It's commonplace in places that aren't Jacksonville. Here? Not gonna happen.

There's no real reason it can't though. 

The FBC grip/influence is fading, there is rapid real estate development happening 3.5 miles from the stadium in the "Brooklyn" area, and an NFL owner is running multiple proposals through city hall to develop the area around the stadium.  

I think it merely requires investors with vision and the fortitude to sack up to the opportunity.

There are very valid reasons why it can't, not the least of which is what the current buildout of the area consists of.


3.5 miles is way too far to generate cross-traffic.  Development in the "Brooklyn" area isn't of any benefit, it's probably more of a detriment as it will generate competing properties.
The fact that a potential developer is an NFL owner is of no significance without a guarantee the team will remain long term, which is not forthcoming.

Vision and fortitude are great, but ultimately it comes down to numbers.  I, for one, simply don't see it as a viable plan.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

There's no real reason it can't though. 

The FBC grip/influence is fading, there is rapid real estate development happening 3.5 miles from the stadium in the "Brooklyn" area, and an NFL owner is running multiple proposals through city hall to develop the area around the stadium.  

I think it merely requires investors with vision and the fortitude to sack up to the opportunity.

There are very valid reasons why it can't, not the least of which is what the current buildout of the area consists of.


3.5 miles is way too far to generate cross-traffic.  Development in the "Brooklyn" area isn't of any benefit, it's probably more of a detriment as it will generate competing properties.
The fact that a potential developer is an NFL owner is of no significance without a guarantee the team will remain long term, which is not forthcoming.

Vision and fortitude are great, but ultimately it comes down to numbers.  I, for one, simply don't see it as a viable plan.

3.5 miles is not too far when you are talking about 4 new condo developments housing hundreds of people. 
Are you going to tell me that people that reside 3.5 miles from a newly developed entertainment complex will not patronize businesses there? 
Are you serious?? People routinely drive 7 miles to shop to purchase a freakin sandwich in this town. The demo of home buyers that will purchase these homes in Brooklyn are exactly the people that will patronize new businesses downtown.

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So downtown potential investors do their due diligence based on message board feedback? Sound like horrible investors.

His post said nothing about a message board, and it does seem to represent a giant swath of opinion from residents of Jacksonville. I've heard some similar refrain of "people aren't ever going to frequent downtown" from people I know and meet at the beach, on the southside, in mandarin and elsewhere.  

I think it's real a shame that folks aren't supportive of the idea of a vital downtown riverfront.

Everyone is supportive of the idea of a vital downtown riverfront! 

It's just not a reality with our leadership, the size of the city, and developers choosing to invest in other areas.

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There are very valid reasons why it can't, not the least of which is what the current buildout of the area consists of.


3.5 miles is way too far to generate cross-traffic.  Development in the "Brooklyn" area isn't of any benefit, it's probably more of a detriment as it will generate competing properties.
The fact that a potential developer is an NFL owner is of no significance without a guarantee the team will remain long term, which is not forthcoming.

Vision and fortitude are great, but ultimately it comes down to numbers.  I, for one, simply don't see it as a viable plan.

3.5 miles is not too far when you are talking about 4 new condo developments housing hundreds of people. 
Are you going to tell me that people that reside 3.5 miles from a newly developed entertainment complex will not patronize businesses there? 
Are you serious?? People routinely drive 7 miles to shop to purchase a freakin sandwich in this town. The demo of home buyers that will purchase these homes in Brooklyn are exactly the people that will patronize new businesses downtown.

It takes a LOT more than hundreds of people to make an area work.
What type of entertainment do you envision that will generate traffic on a daily basis year-round?
You realize there are (with more coming) stores and restaurants already in the Brooklyn area, don't you?  Do you really expect people to consistently leave a trendy, upscale area that's relatively safe and walkable area, to drive 3.5 miles through a not so nice area to get to these new stores and restaurants, especially when there's nothing happening there?

---

When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

3.5 miles is not too far when you are talking about 4 new condo developments housing hundreds of people. 
Are you going to tell me that people that reside 3.5 miles from a newly developed entertainment complex will not patronize businesses there? 
Are you serious?? People routinely drive 7 miles to shop to purchase a freakin sandwich in this town. The demo of home buyers that will purchase these homes in Brooklyn are exactly the people that will patronize new businesses downtown.

It takes a LOT more than hundreds of people to make an area work.
What type of entertainment do you envision that will generate traffic on a daily basis year-round?
You realize there are (with more coming) stores and restaurants already in the Brooklyn area, don't you?  Do you really expect people to consistently leave a trendy, upscale area that's relatively safe and walkable area, to drive 3.5 miles through a not so nice area to get to these new stores and restaurants, especially when there's nothing happening there?

You think people that live in the Brooklyn area are never going to venture outside the 1.25 square miles of their neighborhood??  And I never said I thought that little neighborhood would support downtown development by itself.
It will take lots of these people that are currently allergic to being asked for spare change in a parking lot to get off of their fearful butts and support new businesses on at least a semi regular basis. Brooklyn was merely an example pointing out that nearby areas are experiencing an influx of residents. Which would obviously benefit the proposed dining and live music options included in Lot J. 

Do you really need me to describe the dining, nightlife and entertainment options that draw people in other cities to their downtowns?  Really?  This isn't rocket science. The template is out there a thousand times over. 

This whole "not so nice area" thing is baffling to me. Are you concerned for your safety driving Bay street from the Prime Osborne center to the stadium?  Seriously?? That's a "not so nice area?" C'mon.

---

It takes a LOT more than hundreds of people to make an area work.
What type of entertainment do you envision that will generate traffic on a daily basis year-round?
You realize there are (with more coming) stores and restaurants already in the Brooklyn area, don't you?  Do you really expect people to consistently leave a trendy, upscale area that's relatively safe and walkable area, to drive 3.5 miles through a not so nice area to get to these new stores and restaurants, especially when there's nothing happening there?

You think people that live in the Brooklyn area are never going to venture outside the 1.25 square miles of their neighborhood??  And I never said I thought that little neighborhood would support downtown development by itself.
It will take lots of these people that are currently allergic to being asked for spare change in a parking lot to get off of their fearful butts and support new businesses on at least a semi regular basis. Brooklyn was merely an example pointing out that nearby areas are experiencing an influx of residents. Which would obviously benefit the proposed dining and live music options included in Lot J. 

Do you really need me to describe the dining, nightlife and entertainment options that draw people in other cities to their downtowns?  Really?  This isn't rocket science. The template is out there a thousand times over. 

This whole "not so nice area" thing is baffling to me. Are you concerned for your safety driving Bay street from the Prime Osborne center to the stadium?  Seriously?? That's a "not so nice area?" C'mon.

The point is that you can do all the entertainment stuff you want in this town without going downtown. The offerings will have to exceed the suburban neighborhoods to draw, and the idea of cruising downtown doesnt help.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

How about Khan put his own money up and not involve tax payer money? Oh n/m that would ruin his profit margin. Not like he couldn't afford it.

---

It takes a LOT more than hundreds of people to make an area work.
What type of entertainment do you envision that will generate traffic on a daily basis year-round?
You realize there are (with more coming) stores and restaurants already in the Brooklyn area, don't you?  Do you really expect people to consistently leave a trendy, upscale area that's relatively safe and walkable area, to drive 3.5 miles through a not so nice area to get to these new stores and restaurants, especially when there's nothing happening there?

You think people that live in the Brooklyn area are never going to venture outside the 1.25 square miles of their neighborhood??  And I never said I thought that little neighborhood would support downtown development by itself.
It will take lots of these people that are currently allergic to being asked for spare change in a parking lot to get off of their fearful butts and support new businesses on at least a semi regular basis. Brooklyn was merely an example pointing out that nearby areas are experiencing an influx of residents. Which would obviously benefit the proposed dining and live music options included in Lot J. 

Do you really need me to describe the dining, nightlife and entertainment options that draw people in other cities to their downtowns?  Really?  This isn't rocket science. The template is out there a thousand times over. 

This whole "not so nice area" thing is baffling to me. Are you concerned for your safety driving Bay street from the Prime Osborne center to the stadium?  Seriously?? That's a "not so nice area?" C'mon.

Of course Brooklyn area residents will venture outside of their neighborhood.  They may even visit your "entertainment complex" occasionally.  They may also go to the Town Center or the beaches.  The point is their impact is just a drop in the bucket and there is other competition for their disposable income, both in Brooklyn and elsewhere.  You're the one who thought that "hundreds" of new residents was significant, not I.

I, for one, find the constant panhandling annoying and prefer areas where I don't have to deal with it.

Sounds like you expect Lot J to become Bourbon Street...…….....not happening.

The "not so nice area" thing is baffling to you because you're not looking at the overall picture.  Not everyone will be approaching on Bay Street.  Everything to the east of Lot J is industrial.  North of the stadium isn't exactly pretty.  There are still plenty of vacant/boarded up buildings within a couple blocks of the new courthouse.  Sorry, but downtown Jacksonville isn't anything special.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

You think people that live in the Brooklyn area are never going to venture outside the 1.25 square miles of their neighborhood??  And I never said I thought that little neighborhood would support downtown development by itself.
It will take lots of these people that are currently allergic to being asked for spare change in a parking lot to get off of their fearful butts and support new businesses on at least a semi regular basis. Brooklyn was merely an example pointing out that nearby areas are experiencing an influx of residents. Which would obviously benefit the proposed dining and live music options included in Lot J. 

Do you really need me to describe the dining, nightlife and entertainment options that draw people in other cities to their downtowns?  Really?  This isn't rocket science. The template is out there a thousand times over. 

This whole "not so nice area" thing is baffling to me. Are you concerned for your safety driving Bay street from the Prime Osborne center to the stadium?  Seriously?? That's a "not so nice area?" C'mon.

Of course Brooklyn area residents will venture outside of their neighborhood.  They may even visit your "entertainment complex" occasionally.  They may also go to the Town Center or the beaches.  The point is their impact is just a drop in the bucket and there is other competition for their disposable income, both in Brooklyn and elsewhere.  You're the one who thought that "hundreds" of new residents was significant, not I.

I, for one, find the constant panhandling annoying and prefer areas where I don't have to deal with it.

Sounds like you expect Lot J to become Bourbon Street...…….....not happening.

The "not so nice area" thing is baffling to you because you're not looking at the overall picture.  Not everyone will be approaching on Bay Street.  Everything to the east of Lot J is industrial.  North of the stadium isn't exactly pretty.  There are still plenty of vacant/boarded up buildings within a couple blocks of the new courthouse.  Sorry, but downtown Jacksonville isn't anything special.

Wow. 

Those are some precious sensibilities you have, there.

---

How about Khan put his own money up and not involve tax payer money? Oh n/m that would ruin his profit margin. Not like he couldn't afford it.

Most investors looking to develop downtowns want and get city funding and tax breaks. Just because he is a the Jaguars owner, he should be held to a higher standard?

---

You think people that live in the Brooklyn area are never going to venture outside the 1.25 square miles of their neighborhood??  And I never said I thought that little neighborhood would support downtown development by itself.
It will take lots of these people that are currently allergic to being asked for spare change in a parking lot to get off of their fearful butts and support new businesses on at least a semi regular basis. Brooklyn was merely an example pointing out that nearby areas are experiencing an influx of residents. Which would obviously benefit the proposed dining and live music options included in Lot J. 

Do you really need me to describe the dining, nightlife and entertainment options that draw people in other cities to their downtowns?  Really?  This isn't rocket science. The template is out there a thousand times over. 

This whole "not so nice area" thing is baffling to me. Are you concerned for your safety driving Bay street from the Prime Osborne center to the stadium?  Seriously?? That's a "not so nice area?" C'mon.

Of course Brooklyn area residents will venture outside of their neighborhood.  They may even visit your "entertainment complex" occasionally.  They may also go to the Town Center or the beaches.  The point is their impact is just a drop in the bucket and there is other competition for their disposable income, both in Brooklyn and elsewhere.  You're the one who thought that "hundreds" of new residents was significant, not I.

I, for one, find the constant panhandling annoying and prefer areas where I don't have to deal with it.

Sounds like you expect Lot J to become Bourbon Street...…….....not happening.

The "not so nice area" thing is baffling to you because you're not looking at the overall picture.  Not everyone will be approaching on Bay Street.  Everything to the east of Lot J is industrial.  North of the stadium isn't exactly pretty.  There are still plenty of vacant/boarded up buildings within a couple blocks of the new courthouse.  Sorry, but downtown Jacksonville isn't anything special.

So my question is what is the long term plan for stability of a football team and stadium in Jacksonville for say 20-30 years or longer?

I know everyone says just win. But only a few franchises in all the major sports win consistently over that span. Most franchises have decade-long gullies where they are bad or at best average. They have to deal with poor attendance during that time. Some have built enough loyalty in the fan base to keep the team solvent or are in cities large enough where it won't matter. Even that is not enough sometimes with some owners, e.g the Oilers, Browns, Colts, Rams, and Raiders. That is why franchises relocating happens with some regularity. You need the stadium and possible side ventures of the franchise to have some kind of foot traffic year round to make the franchise financially viable in spite of inevitable down periods. 

What is your solution? Are you suggesting building a new stadium and everything out near the beaches? In St. John's County? In Orange Park?

All I hear from most people is "it won't work", but no alternative solutions.

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Of course Brooklyn area residents will venture outside of their neighborhood.  They may even visit your "entertainment complex" occasionally.  They may also go to the Town Center or the beaches.  The point is their impact is just a drop in the bucket and there is other competition for their disposable income, both in Brooklyn and elsewhere.  You're the one who thought that "hundreds" of new residents was significant, not I.

I, for one, find the constant panhandling annoying and prefer areas where I don't have to deal with it.

Sounds like you expect Lot J to become Bourbon Street...…….....not happening.

The "not so nice area" thing is baffling to you because you're not looking at the overall picture.  Not everyone will be approaching on Bay Street.  Everything to the east of Lot J is industrial.  North of the stadium isn't exactly pretty.  There are still plenty of vacant/boarded up buildings within a couple blocks of the new courthouse.  Sorry, but downtown Jacksonville isn't anything special.

Wow. 

Those are some precious sensibilities you have, there.

LOL.  White flag accepted.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

Of course Brooklyn area residents will venture outside of their neighborhood.  They may even visit your "entertainment complex" occasionally.  They may also go to the Town Center or the beaches.  The point is their impact is just a drop in the bucket and there is other competition for their disposable income, both in Brooklyn and elsewhere.  You're the one who thought that "hundreds" of new residents was significant, not I.

I, for one, find the constant panhandling annoying and prefer areas where I don't have to deal with it.

Sounds like you expect Lot J to become Bourbon Street...…….....not happening.

The "not so nice area" thing is baffling to you because you're not looking at the overall picture.  Not everyone will be approaching on Bay Street.  Everything to the east of Lot J is industrial.  North of the stadium isn't exactly pretty.  There are still plenty of vacant/boarded up buildings within a couple blocks of the new courthouse.  Sorry, but downtown Jacksonville isn't anything special.

Wow. 

Those are some precious sensibilities you have, there.

It is ok to be both sympathetic to the homeless AND understand it is an issue for 90% of people who would prefer not to encounter them when spending their hard earned entertainment dollars.

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New plans for Lot J  revealed

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How about Khan put his own money up and not involve tax payer money? Oh n/m that would ruin his profit margin. Not like he couldn't afford it.

Most investors looking to develop downtowns want and get city funding and tax breaks. Just because he is a the Jaguars owner, he should be held to a higher standard?

Most investors also get taxpayer funded football games? Do tell me of those.

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