And he is better than that? hahaha what is his record again? with and without Coughlin?
Minshew is a Coughlin's guy, you wanna give it to DC? then Fournette is DC's fault too, and he passed on Mahomes and Watson.

Couple things.  1) Yes, Caldwell is better than both Shack and Gene.  If you don't think that's obvious, I don't know what you're looking at.  A team's record is not necessarily an indicator of the effectiveness of the GM, given how many moving pieces there are to a team.

2) We don't really know the dynamics of who picked who or whatever, but we do know Foles was Coughlin's guy and he forced the issue to start him when he was "healthy."  So I'm not certain that we can really say Minshew was his guy.

Better than Gene, without a doubt. Better than Shack though? If you look at the actual results on the field, Shack built better rosters.  If you're not looking at a team's record over time as the effectiveness of a GM, what the hell else are you looking at?

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Couple things.  1) Yes, Caldwell is better than both Shack and Gene.  If you don't think that's obvious, I don't know what you're looking at.  A team's record is not necessarily an indicator of the effectiveness of the GM, given how many moving pieces there are to a team.

2) We don't really know the dynamics of who picked who or whatever, but we do know Foles was Coughlin's guy and he forced the issue to start him when he was "healthy."  So I'm not certain that we can really say Minshew was his guy.

Better than Gene, without a doubt. Better than Shack though? If you look at the actual results on the field, Shack built better rosters.  If you're not looking at a team's record over time as the effectiveness of a GM, what the hell else are you looking at?

Can a talented roster underperform due to poor coaching? 

If you answer “yes” then there are other things the hell else to look at.

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Better than Gene, without a doubt. Better than Shack though? If you look at the actual results on the field, Shack built better rosters.  If you're not looking at a team's record over time as the effectiveness of a GM, what the hell else are you looking at?

Can a talented roster underperform due to poor coaching? 

If you answer “yes” then there are other things the hell else to look at.

It can in the short term, not in the long term. If the record isn't evidence of the effectiveness of a GM, why not just argue that the Jags are the best team in the NFL the last 20 years? An armchair analysis of the state of the roster is well and good but over time, you are what your record says you are.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Can a talented roster underperform due to poor coaching? 

If you answer “yes” then there are other things the hell else to look at.

It can in the short term, not in the long term. If the record isn't evidence of the effectiveness of a GM, why not just argue that the Jags are the best team in the NFL the last 20 years? An armchair analysis of the state of the roster is well and good but over time, you are what your record says you are.

I'd amend the bolded with - "eventually, it's on the GM to fix the coaching issue too."  

After that -- Not sure what you're getting at with the "best in the league" thing. That seems a far cry from anything I'm remotely devil's advocating here. 

I think what has happened the past two seasons since the roster and coaching finally got to a place that it was competitive is very damning for the front office of the Jaguars.  The only reason Caldwell survived the 2018/2019 performance is that Tom Coughlin apparently came in and ran roughshod over the whole scene. Thus giving him some amnesty. 

I personally give Caldwell some leeway for getting the roster to a "should have been in the superbowl" level in 2017 even if the offense that year was flukey at best.  The problem is, they couldn't retain that foothold and build upon it and things, in fact, took a sharp turn downward. 

To the original point of your post that I responded to: 
 Caldwell's tenure has not surpassed Shack's era and its success because he has not paired a worthy roster with a staff worthy of leading them. At least that's the way I see it. He let the Khans lean on him with Bradley and now may ultimately be too loyal to Marrone and Wash.

I wish this season wasn't going to have the asterisk of *pandemic offseason* attached to it so we could get an unadulterated assessment.

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It can in the short term, not in the long term. If the record isn't evidence of the effectiveness of a GM, why not just argue that the Jags are the best team in the NFL the last 20 years? An armchair analysis of the state of the roster is well and good but over time, you are what your record says you are.

I'd amend the bolded with - "eventually, it's on the GM to fix the coaching issue too."  

After that -- Not sure what you're getting at with the "best in the league" thing. That seems a far cry from anything I'm remotely devil's advocating here. 

I think what has happened the past two seasons since the roster and coaching finally got to a place that it was competitive is very damning for the front office of the Jaguars.  The only reason Caldwell survived the 2018/2019 performance is that Tom Coughlin apparently came in and ran roughshod over the whole scene. Thus giving him some amnesty. 

I personally give Caldwell some leeway for getting the roster to a "should have been in the superbowl" level in 2017 even if the offense that year was flukey at best.  The problem is, they couldn't retain that foothold and build upon it and things, in fact, took a sharp turn downward. 

To the original point of your post that I responded to: 
 Caldwell's tenure has not surpassed Shack's era and its success because he has not paired a worthy roster with a staff worthy of leading them. At least that's the way I see it. He let the Khans lean on him with Bradley and now may ultimately be too loyal to Marrone and Wash.

I wish this season wasn't going to have the asterisk of *pandemic offseason* attached to it so we could get an unadulterated assessment.

The bottom line in evaluating a GM (at least after the first couple of years is) is how the team is doing on the field. Sure, the coaching staff might be the reason for that (and that's legit) but ultimately you have to look at the results. 2017 notwithstanding, Shack's record says he was better than Caldwell. To make a case otherwise, you'd need to disregard the record. So my points was: if we throw out the record, why not just claim the Jags have always been great?

Personally, I would have canned Caldwell by now. I suppose a second chance makes a little bit of sense given the issues with TC but we need to see results this year IMO.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

I'd amend the bolded with - "eventually, it's on the GM to fix the coaching issue too."  

After that -- Not sure what you're getting at with the "best in the league" thing. That seems a far cry from anything I'm remotely devil's advocating here. 

I think what has happened the past two seasons since the roster and coaching finally got to a place that it was competitive is very damning for the front office of the Jaguars.  The only reason Caldwell survived the 2018/2019 performance is that Tom Coughlin apparently came in and ran roughshod over the whole scene. Thus giving him some amnesty. 

I personally give Caldwell some leeway for getting the roster to a "should have been in the superbowl" level in 2017 even if the offense that year was flukey at best.  The problem is, they couldn't retain that foothold and build upon it and things, in fact, took a sharp turn downward. 

To the original point of your post that I responded to: 
 Caldwell's tenure has not surpassed Shack's era and its success because he has not paired a worthy roster with a staff worthy of leading them. At least that's the way I see it. He let the Khans lean on him with Bradley and now may ultimately be too loyal to Marrone and Wash.

I wish this season wasn't going to have the asterisk of *pandemic offseason* attached to it so we could get an unadulterated assessment.

The bottom line in evaluating a GM (at least after the first couple of years is) is how the team is doing on the field. Sure, the coaching staff might be the reason for that (and that's legit) but ultimately you have to look at the results. 2017 notwithstanding, Shack's record says he was better than Caldwell. To make a case otherwise, you'd need to disregard the record. So my points was: if we throw out the record, why not just claim the Jags have always been great?

Personally, I would have canned Caldwell by now. I suppose a second chance makes a little bit of sense given the issues with TC but we need to see results this year IMO.

I see the point now, but I was thrown of with the "Jags being great" thing. 
Feels like staring at a forest and ignoring the trees. 

I was fine with Caldwell getting canned after 2019 and I really thought he would be, I just don't evaluate him using such a wide lens. I try to zoom in on stages of roster development and key decisions in different categories. (draft, FA, Coach hires)  The record is the final broad brush perspective for me. 

Anyway - I'll try to get on topic here since we have a Caldwell thread ongoing elsewhere. I'm sure we're not really that far apart in our Caldwell opinions even if I'm slightly more supportive. 

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Here's a recent blurb on Gruden that sort of speculates he'll be motivated to show out with the Jags offense as he seeks another HC opportunity. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/jay-...oordinator

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Couple things.  1) Yes, Caldwell is better than both Shack and Gene.  If you don't think that's obvious, I don't know what you're looking at.  A team's record is not necessarily an indicator of the effectiveness of the GM, given how many moving pieces there are to a team.

2) We don't really know the dynamics of who picked who or whatever, but we do know Foles was Coughlin's guy and he forced the issue to start him when he was "healthy."  So I'm not certain that we can really say Minshew was his guy.

Better than Gene, without a doubt. Better than Shack though? If you look at the actual results on the field, Shack built better rosters.  If you're not looking at a team's record over time as the effectiveness of a GM, what the hell else are you looking at?

I dunno.... Shack's successful teams had a lot of leftovers from the Coughlin drafts (Freddy T, DD, Stroud, Henderson, Meester, Mo Williams, Garrard even) and he had a better HC than Caldwell has had (which I guess is a fault of Caldwell to be fair). 
I'd probably have Shack and Caldwell as about even as far as GM skills go.
They both had some serious first round whiffs. And 2008 was about as bad as a handling of a draft as I've seen. Which was Shack's last.

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We might not get a chance to even see what Gruden's Offense could do here.... 

https://twitter.com/timmillah/status/128...64/photo/1

FWIW...

https://twitter.com/ABC7John/status/1283560458499350534

https://twitter.com/DaveSturchio/status/...9670666247

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Yeah he's most likely fired in the next few days

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welp

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another fwiw...

https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/statu...2638965762

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Hilarious...

Poor Minshew though...
At least this deletes the stupid idea of making him the HC next year

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"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23

What a dumpster fire.

Top 3 pick incoming again.

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We just can’t have nice things.

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Oh dear

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This team falls on Khan. What a clown show.

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Holy [BLEEP]. You have to be kidding me. Forget the Browns. We're the factory of sadness.

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We might not get a chance to even see what Gruden's Offense could do here.... 

https://twitter.com/timmillah/status/128...64/photo/1

FWIW...

https://twitter.com/ABC7John/status/1283560458499350534

https://twitter.com/DaveSturchio/status/...9670666247

Well... the alleged Gruden news isn't really news. When he got canned there were reports of him smoking j's and hitting on young women. So the vetting on that info should have already happened.

I'll take a wait and see approach to this bombshell before running around flailing.

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We might not get a chance to even see what Gruden's Offense could do here.... 

https://twitter.com/timmillah/status/128...64/photo/1

FWIW...

https://twitter.com/ABC7John/status/1283560458499350534

https://twitter.com/DaveSturchio/status/...9670666247

Well... the alleged Gruden news isn't really news. When he got canned there were reports of him smoking j's and hitting on young women. So the vetting on that info should have already happened.

I'll take a wait and see approach to this bombshell before running around flailing.

[BLEEP] that noise, I'm halfway up the modis already.

Tbh, it's kind of considerate of this team to implode before the season even starts. It saves a lot of heartbreak in the long run.

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What a dumpster fire.

Top 3 pick incoming again.

Blessing in disguise in that case.

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