All other OSU QBs don’t matter. Don’t you like Trask? How are all those other Florida QBs doing?

All those Texas Tech QBs were terrible in the NFL..... until Mahomes. Where a prospect played is irrelevant because there is no QB school. Maybe OU and Riley are the closest but as of now, go look at the NFL and where those dudes went to college. It’s from everywhere. Rodgers and the air raid (people used this against him like you are Fields) Brees and PURDUE.... Purdue! Wilson and Wisconsin, Brady and Michigan.... 

You can have you convictions about a player but using their school is an extremely flawed point. Be better.

He was specifically pointing to OSU"s system. I was answering his comments about how OSU could be a one read and run scheme and how those past QB's have fared in the NFL. If indeed that is the type of system they employ, those quarterbacks coming from that school are not equipped to enter the NFL and be starters. With Florida, it's not the system. It was the actual players and their talent level.

As far as Texas Tech, they did used to run a gimmicky system, but when Mahomes went there it had turned into a more pro-style friendly offense. That made his adjustment to learning NFL football a lot quicker. I believe he would've had a much harder time adjusting in the NFL had they still used a system like Mike Leach employed. Kliff Kingsbury came to Texas Tech and used a different variation of the "air raid" offense that helped Mahomes become a better vertical passer. Leach used a lot of bubble screens and short passes where the WR's were expected to make a lot of yards after the catch. Kingsbury's system relied more on the QB to make plays with his arm. Leach used a lot of "noodle armed" QB's who could still run his scheme with ease, but in Kingsbury's variation, you needed a strong armed QB to be efficient. He found success with Mahomes and now with Murray. Both had baseball backgrounds and strong arms. 

As far as schools, I agree that they should have no bearing on how a player will project to the NFL, but even you have to admit that some college teams run such gimmicky offensive schemes that it makes it much harder for players to adjust to playing a more conventional system in the NFL. That was my point. It wasn't about the school, but about the schemes that they run. I assumed people would understand this concept, but I guess I had to spell it out.

But again.... a schools system means nothing in terms of their correlation to NFL success.

NFL QBs flame out coming from pro style and some become great. Spread QBs can flame out or become really good.

There’s zero correlation. Scouting the QB position is the most difficult aspect on all of sports. There’s no other way to put it. It’s impossible and mostly just luck.

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He was specifically pointing to OSU"s system. I was answering his comments about how OSU could be a one read and run scheme and how those past QB's have fared in the NFL. If indeed that is the type of system they employ, those quarterbacks coming from that school are not equipped to enter the NFL and be starters. With Florida, it's not the system. It was the actual players and their talent level.

As far as Texas Tech, they did used to run a gimmicky system, but when Mahomes went there it had turned into a more pro-style friendly offense. That made his adjustment to learning NFL football a lot quicker. I believe he would've had a much harder time adjusting in the NFL had they still used a system like Mike Leach employed. Kliff Kingsbury came to Texas Tech and used a different variation of the "air raid" offense that helped Mahomes become a better vertical passer. Leach used a lot of bubble screens and short passes where the WR's were expected to make a lot of yards after the catch. Kingsbury's system relied more on the QB to make plays with his arm. Leach used a lot of "noodle armed" QB's who could still run his scheme with ease, but in Kingsbury's variation, you needed a strong armed QB to be efficient. He found success with Mahomes and now with Murray. Both had baseball backgrounds and strong arms. 

As far as schools, I agree that they should have no bearing on how a player will project to the NFL, but even you have to admit that some college teams run such gimmicky offensive schemes that it makes it much harder for players to adjust to playing a more conventional system in the NFL. That was my point. It wasn't about the school, but about the schemes that they run. I assumed people would understand this concept, but I guess I had to spell it out.

But again.... a schools system means nothing in terms of their correlation to NFL success.

NFL QBs flame out coming from pro style and some become great. Spread QBs can flame out or become really good.

There’s zero correlation. Scouting the QB position is the most difficult aspect on all of sports. There’s no other way to put it. It’s impossible and mostly just luck.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on this board. There are definitely certain systems that make it way more difficult for QB's to make the jump to the NFL. To say that they don't, is just ignorant. Has there ever been a successful NFL QB that comes from a college flexbone scheme? No, because as a scheme it is so different and QB's from such systems basically have to re-learn how to play QB when coming to the NFL. Schemes absolutely do matter. Some schemes are easier than others to transition from the college ranks to the NFL. 

Yes pro-style QB's flame out too, but when you have a really talented QB in a pro-stlyle system, he has a distinct advantage coming into the NFL over a really talented QB who is coming from a gimmicky offensive scheme. That's just common sense!

Schemes matter or else we'd have more triple option QB's in the NFL. Yes, scouting the QB position is the hardest in sports. Not only do you have to have the physical tools, but you also have to be a born leader and you have to make quick decisions and instincts for what is going on around you. IMO, it is the hardest position to play in all of sports.

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All other OSU QBs don’t matter. Don’t you like Trask? How are all those other Florida QBs doing?

All those Texas Tech QBs were terrible in the NFL..... until Mahomes. Where a prospect played is irrelevant because there is no QB school. Maybe OU and Riley are the closest but as of now, go look at the NFL and where those dudes went to college. It’s from everywhere. Rodgers and the air raid (people used this against him like you are Fields) Brees and PURDUE.... Purdue! Wilson and Wisconsin, Brady and Michigan.... 

You can have you convictions about a player but using their school is an extremely flawed point. Be better.

He was specifically pointing to OSU"s system. I was answering his comments about how OSU could be a one read and run scheme and how those past QB's have fared in the NFL. If indeed that is the type of system they employ, those quarterbacks coming from that school are not equipped to enter the NFL and be starters. With Florida, it's not the system. It was the actual players and their talent level.

As far as Texas Tech, they did used to run a gimmicky system, but when Mahomes went there it had turned into a more pro-style friendly offense. That made his adjustment to learning NFL football a lot quicker. I believe he would've had a much harder time adjusting in the NFL had they still used a system like Mike Leach employed. Kliff Kingsbury came to Texas Tech and used a different variation of the "air raid" offense that helped Mahomes become a better vertical passer. Leach used a lot of bubble screens and short passes where the WR's were expected to make a lot of yards after the catch. Kingsbury's system relied more on the QB to make plays with his arm. Leach used a lot of "noodle armed" QB's who could still run his scheme with ease, but in Kingsbury's variation, you needed a strong armed QB to be efficient. He found success with Mahomes and now with Murray. Both had baseball backgrounds and strong arms. 

As far as schools, I agree that they should have no bearing on how a player will project to the NFL, but even you have to admit that some college teams run such gimmicky offensive schemes that it makes it much harder for players to adjust to playing a more conventional system in the NFL. That was my point. It wasn't about the school, but about the schemes that they run. I assumed people would understand this concept, but I guess I had to spell it out.

I'm a Texas Tech alumni. Kliff has so much success with Mahomes that he got fired.

Kingsbury's scheme is absolutely a gimmicky air raid offense, and it's one reason I am neither a Murray believer nor someone who thinks Kingsbury will have any success as a head coach.  Tech QBs always put up video game numbers and get figured out by season's end.  Sound familiar?

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But again.... a schools system means nothing in terms of their correlation to NFL success.

NFL QBs flame out coming from pro style and some become great. Spread QBs can flame out or become really good.

There’s zero correlation. Scouting the QB position is the most difficult aspect on all of sports. There’s no other way to put it. It’s impossible and mostly just luck.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on this board. There are definitely certain systems that make it way more difficult for QB's to make the jump to the NFL. To say that they don't, is just ignorant. Has there ever been a successful NFL QB that comes from a college flexbone scheme? No, because as a scheme it is so different and QB's from such systems basically have to re-learn how to play QB when coming to the NFL. Schemes absolutely do matter. Some schemes are easier than others to transition from the college ranks to the NFL. 

Yes pro-style QB's flame out too, but when you have a really talented QB in a pro-stlyle system, he has a distinct advantage coming into the NFL over a really talented QB who is coming from a gimmicky offensive scheme. That's just common sense!

Schemes matter or else we'd have more triple option QB's in the NFL. Yes, scouting the QB position is the hardest in sports. Not only do you have to have the physical tools, but you also have to be a born leader and you have to make quick decisions and instincts for what is going on around you. IMO, it is the hardest position to play in all of sports.

Dawg. Schemes don’t matter for translating to NFL success. If they did, anyone coming from the air raid or spread offenses wouldn’t work. QBs come from all sorts of colleges and schemes.

Look at how many spread QBs have succeeded when just a few years ago, people said they won’t last. 

This “pro style translates better” may have worked a while ago but look at how many NFL offenses have drastically changed their offense to fit today’s college QBs.

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Kind of feel like this conversation is devolving into semantics. Obviously scouting the QB is the key factor. But part of that scouting evaluation must take into consideration where they played. I went to school at Vandy so I'm familiar with that program more than others and I remember when Jay Cutler came out. So many differing opinions on him as it was really hard to truly scout him at a school like Vandy where the surrounding talent was so much less than your opponents. Especially when the SEC East was still considered the dominant division in the conference. The guy clearly had the arm and athletic ability but zero pass protection, no one getting open, and not much of a running game. How do you really scout that? Same for a QB like Fields but the opposite problem. Preface this by saying I havent watch much of him other than some highlights but he often has a very clean pocket with all day to throw and is throwing to guys wide open. And like most QBs who are really athletic, is quick to take off running when the option is there.

Getting back to Wilson, the more clips I watch the more I like him. He does look skinny and you'd need to worry about injuries. Especially leg injuries if people are falling around his feet. But I think he is clearly in the 2nd tier with Fields. Watched the coastal carolina and san diego st clips where they showed all his snaps, not just the highlights. Guy has a big arm, throws people open, and is surprisingly athletic but doesnt rely on it. Hasn't faced the toughest of competition obviously but of course it's not like he has the greatest talent around him. He definitely needs to evade pressure more often than Fields does.

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________________________________________________
Scouting well is all that matters.  Draft philosophy is all fluff.

My whole point is that QBs come from everywhere. All different schools, offenses, schemes, height, arm strength..... so ultimately, none of that really matters because if we knew the answer as to which one worked in the NFL, teams wouldn’t miss so often on QBs.

And honestly, none of this matters if we don’t get the right HC or OC next year. Wilson or Fiels.... it won’t matter. They need to be set up for success.

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My whole point is that QBs come from everywhere. All different schools, offenses, schemes, height, arm strength..... so ultimately, none of that really matters because if we knew the answer as to which one worked in the NFL, teams wouldn’t miss so often on QBs.

And honestly, none of this matters if we don’t get the right HC or OC next year. Wilson or Fiels.... it won’t matter. They need to be set up for success.

The correct take.

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He was specifically pointing to OSU"s system. I was answering his comments about how OSU could be a one read and run scheme and how those past QB's have fared in the NFL. If indeed that is the type of system they employ, those quarterbacks coming from that school are not equipped to enter the NFL and be starters. With Florida, it's not the system. It was the actual players and their talent level.

As far as Texas Tech, they did used to run a gimmicky system, but when Mahomes went there it had turned into a more pro-style friendly offense. That made his adjustment to learning NFL football a lot quicker. I believe he would've had a much harder time adjusting in the NFL had they still used a system like Mike Leach employed. Kliff Kingsbury came to Texas Tech and used a different variation of the "air raid" offense that helped Mahomes become a better vertical passer. Leach used a lot of bubble screens and short passes where the WR's were expected to make a lot of yards after the catch. Kingsbury's system relied more on the QB to make plays with his arm. Leach used a lot of "noodle armed" QB's who could still run his scheme with ease, but in Kingsbury's variation, you needed a strong armed QB to be efficient. He found success with Mahomes and now with Murray. Both had baseball backgrounds and strong arms. 

As far as schools, I agree that they should have no bearing on how a player will project to the NFL, but even you have to admit that some college teams run such gimmicky offensive schemes that it makes it much harder for players to adjust to playing a more conventional system in the NFL. That was my point. It wasn't about the school, but about the schemes that they run. I assumed people would understand this concept, but I guess I had to spell it out.

I'm a Texas Tech alumni. Kliff has so much success with Mahomes that he got fired.

Kingsbury's scheme is absolutely a gimmicky air raid offense, and it's one reason I am neither a Murray believer nor someone who thinks Kingsbury will have any success as a head coach.  Tech QBs always put up video game numbers and get figured out by season's end.  Sound familiar?

It doesn't matter that Kingsbury got fired. He was terminated because their defense couldn't stop anybody. That has nothing to do with the QB position. The truth is, that offensive scheme was not nearly as gimmicky as you say. A lot of pro teams are now running their own variations of the same system which helped develop Mahomes into the player he is today. 

Say what you want, but Murray has improved a lot this season and I admittedly, didn't think he would. I believed he was too small, but the kid has a big arm. As of right now, I was wrong about him. I was also wrong about Kingsbury. I thought he'd be a bust, but he is slowly turning the Cards into a viable team.

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That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on this board. There are definitely certain systems that make it way more difficult for QB's to make the jump to the NFL. To say that they don't, is just ignorant. Has there ever been a successful NFL QB that comes from a college flexbone scheme? No, because as a scheme it is so different and QB's from such systems basically have to re-learn how to play QB when coming to the NFL. Schemes absolutely do matter. Some schemes are easier than others to transition from the college ranks to the NFL. 

Yes pro-style QB's flame out too, but when you have a really talented QB in a pro-stlyle system, he has a distinct advantage coming into the NFL over a really talented QB who is coming from a gimmicky offensive scheme. That's just common sense!

Schemes matter or else we'd have more triple option QB's in the NFL. Yes, scouting the QB position is the hardest in sports. Not only do you have to have the physical tools, but you also have to be a born leader and you have to make quick decisions and instincts for what is going on around you. IMO, it is the hardest position to play in all of sports.

Dawg. Schemes don’t matter for translating to NFL success. If they did, anyone coming from the air raid or spread offenses wouldn’t work. QBs come from all sorts of colleges and schemes.

Look at how many spread QBs have succeeded when just a few years ago, people said they won’t last. 

This “pro style translates better” may have worked a while ago but look at how many NFL offenses have drastically changed their offense to fit today’s college QBs.

It does matter. If it doesn't matter, where are all the triple option QB's in the NFL? As far as the air raid offense, maybe at one time it was considered gimmicky, but now NFL teams are running their own variations of it and it's becoming fairly normal. As the NFL adopts certain schemes the stigma on them goes away, but there are still college schemes that teams run, which basically limit any progression a QB may show as a passer. NFL teams stay away from QB's who are in such schemes, so it does matter when translating to the NFL. You're stuck on the air raid or spread offenses and those two are commonplace in the NFL now. You still have to go through your progressions as a passer in those schemes. They aren't one read offenses.

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My whole point is that QBs come from everywhere. All different schools, offenses, schemes, height, arm strength..... so ultimately, none of that really matters because if we knew the answer as to which one worked in the NFL, teams wouldn’t miss so often on QBs.

And honestly, none of this matters if we don’t get the right HC or OC next year. Wilson or Fiels.... it won’t matter. They need to be set up for success.

Not from triple option schemes.

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Dawg. Schemes don’t matter for translating to NFL success. If they did, anyone coming from the air raid or spread offenses wouldn’t work. QBs come from all sorts of colleges and schemes.

Look at how many spread QBs have succeeded when just a few years ago, people said they won’t last. 

This “pro style translates better” may have worked a while ago but look at how many NFL offenses have drastically changed their offense to fit today’s college QBs.

It does matter. If it doesn't matter, where are all the triple option QB's in the NFL? As far as the air raid offense, maybe at one time it was considered gimmicky, but now NFL teams are running their own variations of it and it's becoming fairly normal. As the NFL adopts certain schemes the stigma on them goes away, but there are still college schemes that teams run, which basically limit any progression a QB may show as a passer. NFL teams stay away from QB's who are in such schemes, so it does matter when translating to the NFL. You're stuck on the air raid or spread offenses and those two are commonplace in the NFL now. You still have to go through your progressions as a passer in those schemes. They aren't one read offenses.

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My whole point is that QBs come from everywhere. All different schools, offenses, schemes, height, arm strength..... so ultimately, none of that really matters because if we knew the answer as to which one worked in the NFL, teams wouldn’t miss so often on QBs.

And honestly, none of this matters if we don’t get the right HC or OC next year. Wilson or Fiels.... it won’t matter. They need to be set up for success.

Not from triple option schemes.

Lol so triple option? That’s all you got.

Fair enough. If someone runs a triple option scheme, they should be heavily scrutinized.

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It does matter. If it doesn't matter, where are all the triple option QB's in the NFL? As far as the air raid offense, maybe at one time it was considered gimmicky, but now NFL teams are running their own variations of it and it's becoming fairly normal. As the NFL adopts certain schemes the stigma on them goes away, but there are still college schemes that teams run, which basically limit any progression a QB may show as a passer. NFL teams stay away from QB's who are in such schemes, so it does matter when translating to the NFL. You're stuck on the air raid or spread offenses and those two are commonplace in the NFL now. You still have to go through your progressions as a passer in those schemes. They aren't one read offenses.

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Not from triple option schemes.

Lol so triple option? That’s all you got.

Fair enough. If someone runs a triple option scheme, they should be heavily scrutinized.

This entire discussion began when someone said OSU may be running a one read and run system. I have no idea what such a scheme would even be called, because it's so ridiculous. I just know it's what Fields does. That does not necessarily mean that's what OSU wants him to do. I was just simply saying if that was in fact the type of scheme they were running, it would definitely hinder a QB's progression into the NFL. You can disagree with me, that's your right. I just wanted to try and get my point across. Now, I'm gonna leave this argument alone and move onto something else.

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I'm a Texas Tech alumni. Kliff has so much success with Mahomes that he got fired.

Kingsbury's scheme is absolutely a gimmicky air raid offense, and it's one reason I am neither a Murray believer nor someone who thinks Kingsbury will have any success as a head coach.  Tech QBs always put up video game numbers and get figured out by season's end.  Sound familiar?

It doesn't matter that Kingsbury got fired. He was terminated because their defense couldn't stop anybody. That has nothing to do with the QB position. The truth is, that offensive scheme was not nearly as gimmicky as you say. A lot of pro teams are now running their own variations of the same system which helped develop Mahomes into the player he is today. 

Say what you want, but Murray has improved a lot this season and I admittedly, didn't think he would. I believed he was too small, but the kid has a big arm. As of right now, I was wrong about him. I was also wrong about Kingsbury. I thought he'd be a bust, but he is slowly turning the Cards into a viable team.

He got fired because year after year he failed to consistently win.  His in game coaching is and always has been suspect.  Except for a lucky hail mary, Arizona is what?  2-4 in their last 6?

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Unless he switches positions to WR or RB it won't matter. I could care less how fast a QB runs. QB's don't need to be running unless they are flushed out of the pocket. I only care about how they throw. 

Man, you need a delorean. This era of NFL just ain't for you.

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Unless he switches positions to WR or RB it won't matter. I could care less how fast a QB runs. QB's don't need to be running unless they are flushed out of the pocket. I only care about how they throw. 

Man, you need a delorean. This era of NFL just ain't for you.

I honestly like this era of QB play way less than I liked it in the early 2000's. I like when QB's sit in the pocket wait until the last possible second to deliver the ball as they go through all their reads. I loved watching Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning and young versions of Tom Brady and Drew Brees. To me, that was real football.

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Man, you need a delorean. This era of NFL just ain't for you.

I honestly like this era of QB play way less than I liked it in the early 2000's. I like when QB's sit in the pocket wait until the last possible second to deliver the ball as they go through all their reads. I loved watching Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning and young versions of Tom Brady and Drew Brees. To me, that was real football.

Hahahaha Mahomes and Rodgers out there playing fake football.

I’m sure when Favre and Manning were out there, the older generation was clamoring for Bradshaw and Joe Theisman. “QBs these days pass way too much. Run the ball”

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Unless he switches positions to WR or RB it won't matter. I could care less how fast a QB runs. QB's don't need to be running unless they are flushed out of the pocket. I only care about how they throw. 

Man, you need a delorean. This era of NFL just ain't for you.

Probably why it's not doing as well.

It's boring to watch. It's turning into arena football

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Man, you need a delorean. This era of NFL just ain't for you.

Probably why it's not doing as well.

It's boring to watch. It's turning into arena football

Hahahah

It’s doing just fine. What makes you think it’s not doing well? Or are you just grumpy that it looks different than it did 20 years ago?

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Dawg. Schemes don’t matter for translating to NFL success. If they did, anyone coming from the air raid or spread offenses wouldn’t work. QBs come from all sorts of colleges and schemes.

Look at how many spread QBs have succeeded when just a few years ago, people said they won’t last. 

This “pro style translates better” may have worked a while ago but look at how many NFL offenses have drastically changed their offense to fit today’s college QBs.

It does matter. If it doesn't matter, where are all the triple option QB's in the NFL? As far as the air raid offense, maybe at one time it was considered gimmicky, but now NFL teams are running their own variations of it and it's becoming fairly normal. As the NFL adopts certain schemes the stigma on them goes away, but there are still college schemes that teams run, which basically limit any progression a QB may show as a passer. NFL teams stay away from QB's who are in such schemes, so it does matter when translating to the NFL. You're stuck on the air raid or spread offenses and those two are commonplace in the NFL now. You still have to go through your progressions as a passer in those schemes. They aren't one read offenses.

---

My whole point is that QBs come from everywhere. All different schools, offenses, schemes, height, arm strength..... so ultimately, none of that really matters because if we knew the answer as to which one worked in the NFL, teams wouldn’t miss so often on QBs.

And honestly, none of this matters if we don’t get the right HC or OC next year. Wilson or Fiels.... it won’t matter. They need to be set up for success.

Not from triple option schemes.

Do you honestly think a coach would force a QB who could throw to play triple option? I've been exposed to plenty triple option offenses while I was in school, and I promise you when the QB put one up, you understood why the coach called for so many sweeps right.

But, sure, you're right, guys that weren't good enough to throw 30 times a game in college aren't throwing 30 times a game in the pros.

I think Mahomes was the first guy that made me understand spread/air raid QBs are no longer gimmicks, or better said, not necessarily gimmicks. Back in the day it was scheme to hide flaw. Overload the passing lanes, and for sure the opposing teams won't have 5 consistently good cover men each down, right? QB doesn't have a cannon for an arm, so quick read and dump, let the RB/WR/TE beat a guy one-on-one in the open field instead. Now, we're seeing actually talented QBs seeking out those programs, and you can't just dismiss the player based on the scheme they're in. Look back to Rodgers - Tedford QBs failed so badly in the NFL multiple times, that teams shied away from him, fearing that he was more product of scheme than actual talent.

I gotta agree with Cleatwood, evaluate the player, not the offense. If the guy can make all the passes, take him. If he's only good at slants and screens, shelf him for later, or let someone else overdraft them. How many good QB have stonehanded WR dropping perfect throws? Is the guy a product of the system, or is he capable of running other systems, too? At this point, just about anyone they take is going to be an improvement. A lot of us dismissed guys like Mahomes, and were wrong. What's to say we're not wrong again in our amateur evaluations?

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Probably why it's not doing as well.

It's boring to watch. It's turning into arena football

Hahahah

It’s doing just fine. What makes you think it’s not doing well? Or are you just grumpy that it looks different than it did 20 years ago?

The league was having unprecedented growth from 2000-2012, games in Mexico, talk about a European league... then that stuff started to stop. Quietly.

Sure it's still the biggest sport in the US - but it's never going to overtake soccer like the NFL honestly believed back then.

It doesn't just look different - it flat out sucks. I haven't watched a full game in years. If I want to see what happens I'll watch the 10 minute recap video (which shows pretty much every play since the actual action is maybe 15 minutes)

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Hahahah

It’s doing just fine. What makes you think it’s not doing well? Or are you just grumpy that it looks different than it did 20 years ago?

The league was having unprecedented growth from 2000-2012, games in Mexico, talk about a European league... then that stuff started to stop. Quietly.

Sure it's still the biggest sport in the US - but it's never going to overtake soccer like the NFL honestly believed back then.

It doesn't just look different - it flat out sucks. I haven't watched a full game in years. If I want to see what happens I'll watch the 10 minute recap video (which shows pretty much every play since the actual action is maybe 15 minutes)

That's interesting seeing as the actual game time is 60 minutes.

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