whats overrated about Zappa?

He was a great guitar player, a great song writer. he acquired some of the most talented musicians of the time. and almost nobody likes him.

if anything, he's extremely underated. you just don't get it. that's not the definition if overrated..

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whats overrated about Zappa?

He was a great guitar player, a great song writer. he acquired some of the most talented musicians of the time. and almost nobody likes him.

if anything, he's extremely underated. you just don't get it. that's not the definition if overrated..

What don't I 'get'? It's just an opinion. I think he was overrated as a songwriter. Too gimmicky and sometimes sophomoric. I liked that in general he went against the grain of the music biz, but sometimes he was just too clever for his own good, to the point of being condescending. Not denying his musicianship, just that he was sometimes a contrarian to a fault. His fusion of jazz/rock/smartassness mostly just didn't appeal to me. I did like a good bit of Overnight Sensation back in the day, tho.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Have you tried Run the Jewels yet?  Try "The Ground Below" by Run The Jewels.

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Miles Davis is a master of the trumpet.  Do you just not like the trumpet?

Pearl Jam, I enjoy it, but if you say Eddie Vedder's voice is a one-trick pony I might agree with you. Alice in Chains is another band that might not be remembered for anything if they weren't peers of Nirvana.  Chris Cornell was the best vocalist that the Seattle scene produced.

I love the trumpet. Check out "Give it One", by Maynard Ferguson from MF Horn 2. Your ears will bleed.

I hear you.  Any instrument, you can find players with extraordinary talent who can "make your ears bleed".  I'm not denying the talent, I'm just saying I don't enjoy listening to that kind of things as much as I like the expressiveness and improvisation of a guy like Miles Davis.  Davis is not overrated.  That'd be like saying, Eddie Van Halen played louder and faster than Duane Allman, ergo, Eddie Van Halen is the greatest and Duane Allman is overrated.  It's not true.  They're both great in their own way.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

I love the trumpet. Check out "Give it One", by Maynard Ferguson from MF Horn 2. Your ears will bleed.

I hear you.  Any instrument, you can find players with extraordinary talent who can "make your ears bleed".  I'm not denying the talent, I'm just saying I don't enjoy listening to that kind of things as much as I like the expressiveness and improvisation of a guy like Miles Davis.  Davis is not overrated.  That'd be like saying, Eddie Van Halen played louder and faster than Duane Allman, ergo, Eddie Van Halen is the greatest and Duane Allman is overrated.  It's not true.  They're both great in their own way.

Agreed. Miles is not my cup of tea, except maybe when working late late at nite. I was referring more to the way critics consistently rate him, as the best trumpet player to ever live, which is pretty disrespectful to 4,000 years of historical musicians and musicianship. Is he the best of this era within the particular style he's chosen? Perhaps.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I hear you.  Any instrument, you can find players with extraordinary talent who can "make your ears bleed".  I'm not denying the talent, I'm just saying I don't enjoy listening to that kind of things as much as I like the expressiveness and improvisation of a guy like Miles Davis.  Davis is not overrated.  That'd be like saying, Eddie Van Halen played louder and faster than Duane Allman, ergo, Eddie Van Halen is the greatest and Duane Allman is overrated.  It's not true.  They're both great in their own way.

Agreed.  Miles is not my cup of tea, except maybe when working late late at nite.  I was referring more to the way critics consistently rate him, as the best trumpet player to ever live, which is pretty disrespectful to 4,000 years of historical musicians and musicianship.  Is he the best of this era within the particular style he's chosen?  Perhaps.

Miles gets the acclaim he does because he radically changed the direction of jazz and improvisational music stylistically.

His trumpet abilities are not unmatched, but his ability to play lyrically with artistic subtlety has yet to be equaled. 
 His innovative and hyper-stylized approach that turned the be-bop world toward cool jazz, and then finally paved a new road of modal jazz composition and improvisation is the reason he is so acclaimed. 

To analyze what jazz music was in 1945 and compare it to what it had become in 1959 when Miles released "Kind of Blue" is actually pretty astounding. There were other innovators and various branches of style growing on the "jazz tree" but none were more profound than the giant canopy Miles Davis grew. 

The music itself isn't for everyone's palate.

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Agreed.  Miles is not my cup of tea, except maybe when working late late at nite.  I was referring more to the way critics consistently rate him, as the best trumpet player to ever live, which is pretty disrespectful to 4,000 years of historical musicians and musicianship.  Is he the best of this era within the particular style he's chosen?  Perhaps.

Miles gets the acclaim he does because he radically changed the direction of jazz and improvisational music stylistically.

His trumpet abilities are not unmatched, but his ability to play lyrically with artistic subtlety has yet to be equaled. 
 His innovative and hyper-stylized approach that turned the be-bop world toward cool jazz, and then finally paved a new road of modal jazz composition and improvisation is the reason he is so acclaimed. 

To analyze what jazz music was in 1945 and compare it to what it had become in 1959 when Miles released "Kind of Blue" is actually pretty astounding. There were other innovators and various branches of style growing on the "jazz tree" but none were more profound than the giant canopy Miles Davis grew. 

The music itself isn't for everyone's palate.

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful analysis. I'll have to revisit/rethink some of his stuff.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Musicians that are heralded as great by critics or fans in thier genre, but just never really did it for you. I ll start with a few.

Carlos Santana
Stevie Nicks
Herbie Hancock
Miles Davis
Garth Brooks
Jimmy Buffet
Pearl Jam
Alice in Chains
Eric Clapton
Jerry Garcia
Frank Zappa
Ed Sheerhan

Have you ever watched Jerry Garcia and Carlos Santana play the guitar?   Jerry did things that cannot be duplicated and many have tried.

Most of the musicians you listed were pioneers in their style of music and should be acknowledged as great musicians.   Not everyone can be nice and poppy like Maroon 5 and Imagine Dragons.

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Is it safe to say that overrated is just another term for dislike?

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Musicians that are heralded as great by critics or fans in thier genre, but just never really did it for you. I ll start with a few.

Carlos Santana
Stevie Nicks
Herbie Hancock
Miles Davis
Garth Brooks
Jimmy Buffet
Pearl Jam
Alice in Chains
Eric Clapton
Jerry Garcia
Frank Zappa
Ed Sheerhan

Have you ever watched Jerry Garcia and Carlos Santana play the guitar?   Jerry did things that cannot be duplicated and many have tried.

Most of the musicians you listed were pioneers in their style of music and should be acknowledged as great musicians.   Not everyone can be nice and poppy like Maroon 5 and Imagine Dragons.

Sure, I've seen them both. Seen Santana in concert. They just don't resonate with me. Didn't say they weren't good. Personally, I think Santana is a limited as a guitarist. His chops are limited. Django Rhinehart to me was great; Wes Montgomery was great, John McLaughlin is great. Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Glen Campbell. Its a long list.

And I despise Marroon 5 and Dragons.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

whats overrated about Zappa?

He was a great guitar player, a great song writer.  he acquired some of the most talented musicians of the time.  and almost nobody likes him.

if anything, he's extremely underated.  you just don't get it.  that's not the definition if overrated..

What don't I 'get'? It's just an opinion.  I think he was overrated as a songwriter.  Too gimmicky and sometimes sophomoric.  I liked that in general he went against the grain of the music biz, but sometimes he was just too clever for his own good, to the point of being condescending.  Not denying his musicianship, just that he was sometimes a contrarian to a fault.  His fusion of jazz/rock/smartassness mostly just didn't appeal to me.  I did like a good bit of Overnight Sensation back in the day, tho.

you claim sophmoric, but then pick Overnight Sensation.  by far his most Sophmoric.  but that album end with I am the Slime.  A song about how television is destroying oeople minds.  particularly [BLEEP] news programs.  pretty relevant 50 years later.  He also wrote about the Watts Riots in a dong credited with the invention of Rap.  He was extremely political.  With Sings like Star Wars Wont Work." The gas still gets through.  it gets all over you.". He also blasted Republicans in the 80s.  Roasted Nixon over and over again.

When i think Overrated bands i dont think of less than moderate popularity.  i think "The Greatest Rock Band in the World"Led Zepplin.  

Zappa is one of the most talented musicians of the 20th century.  Regardless of "doesn't appeal to me."

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What don't I 'get'? It's just an opinion.  I think he was overrated as a songwriter.  Too gimmicky and sometimes sophomoric.  I liked that in general he went against the grain of the music biz, but sometimes he was just too clever for his own good, to the point of being condescending.  Not denying his musicianship, just that he was sometimes a contrarian to a fault.  His fusion of jazz/rock/smartassness mostly just didn't appeal to me.  I did like a good bit of Overnight Sensation back in the day, tho.

you claim sophmoric, but then pick Overnight Sensation.  by far his most Sophmoric.  but that album end with I am the Slime.  A song about how television is destroying oeople minds.  particularly [BLEEP] news programs.  pretty relevant 50 years later.  He also wrote about the Watts Riots in a dong credited with the invention of Rap.  He was extremely political.  With Sings like Star Wars Wont Work." The gas still gets through.  it gets all over you.". He also blasted Republicans in the 80s.  Roasted Nixon over and over again.

When i think Overrated bands i dont think of less than moderate popularity.  i think "The Greatest Rock Band in the World"Led Zepplin.  

Zappa is one of the most talented musicians of the 20th century.  Regardless of "doesn't appeal to me."

Yeah. I was sophomoric in my early 20's. No doubt about it.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I'll probably get some flack for this but Kurt Cobain was way overrated as a musician and a little overrated as a songwriter although he was one of the primary figures in the development of the Seattle grunge sound.

No flack from me. I was probably four to five years old when the Grunge scene hit the mainstream in full force in that early 90's window. My Dad wasn't even really big on them neither. 

I ended up being completely enamored with Chris Cornell though and Soundgarden as a whole throughout most of my life. I will admit. Outside of family death's. Chris Cornell's death was the only one that got to me when I heard the news. 

I remember that morning in my house. I kind of just tucked away for a few minutes, shed a few tears and went on about my business. I still enjoy his music. In all of his projects. 

But, agreed. Didn't care much for Cobain.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Is it safe to say that overrated is just another term for dislike?

That's fair. I notice personally within myself, when, the mainstream tends to favor or hold one artist or group in high regard that I tend to turn away from it rather quickly. 

With a few exceptions. I honestly like Metallica, Michael Jackson, Elton John, Queen, Pink Floyd, etc. 

I don't mind hearing any of them come up on a radio or one of my playlists. I don't like Madonna at all though. I get the appeal then and somewhat now. I don't care for U2 that much anymore. Maybe it's just their ego, more importantly, Bono's. I don't know. 

My Mom was a big fan of hers (Madonna) in the 90's. However, if she had her on the CD player I would tell her to throw Fleetwood Mac on instead. And she quickly obliged because they were better to her anyway. 

I have a soft spot for bands like Blackfoot and Lynrd Skynrd because of my Dad. Yet, I can understand why my wife can't get into it. It's a very distinct sound that you had to have grown up on to get into. It's the same flack I give her when she throws on a Brittney Spears album. Same for Celine Dion or Mariah Carey.

Not my cup of tea. I get it. They're top selling artists, etc. I would rather listen to Janis Joplin, Adele or Tina Turner instead.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I'll probably get some flack for this but Kurt Cobain was way overrated as a musician and a little overrated as a songwriter although he was one of the primary figures in the development of the Seattle grunge sound.

wholeheartedly agree.

I kinda wonder about a lot of artists who passed way too early, would they have continued making music, would their edge have dulled? Like, by album 5, would Hendrix have burned out on studio work? Would he still play as wildly as he approached age 40? If Cobain were still alive, why in the world did he think an Xmas album was going to work?

I think so. Hendrix maybe not, he was hugely talented but Cobain would have been quickly eclipsed by Dave Grohl and I believe Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison would have mostly faded into obscurity if not for their untimely deaths.

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I'll probably get some flack for this but Kurt Cobain was way overrated as a musician and a little overrated as a songwriter although he was one of the primary figures in the development of the Seattle grunge sound.

No flack from me. I was probably four to five years old when the Grunge scene hit the mainstream in full force in that early 90's window. My Dad wasn't even really big on them neither. 

I ended up being completely enamored with Chris Cornell though and Soundgarden as a whole throughout most of my life. I will admit. Outside of family death's. Chris Cornell's death was the only one that got to me when I heard the news. 

I remember that morning in my house. I kind of just tucked away for a few minutes, shed a few tears and went on about my business. I still enjoy his music. In all of his projects. 

But, agreed. Didn't care much for Cobain.

I hear ya. Hate to reuse this term from the football forum but Cornell was a "generational talent". By definition, those don't come along very frequently.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

I think Cobain and Grohl were about to go their separate ways regardless and Grohl's career wouldn't be that different with Cobain still alive.
But I also think Cobain would have kept making music for a few more years anyways, he and Novaselic would have found a new drummer. The new music might have been pretty different from the old, too. We will never know.
Cobain probably had borderline personality disorder. There is no way to treat that chemically, and he was trying to treat it with narcotics. But if he had just gone to therapy and taken it seriously, he could still be alive today.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Miles gets the acclaim he does because he radically changed the direction of jazz and improvisational music stylistically.

His trumpet abilities are not unmatched, but his ability to play lyrically with artistic subtlety has yet to be equaled. 
 His innovative and hyper-stylized approach that turned the be-bop world toward cool jazz, and then finally paved a new road of modal jazz composition and improvisation is the reason he is so acclaimed. 

To analyze what jazz music was in 1945 and compare it to what it had become in 1959 when Miles released "Kind of Blue" is actually pretty astounding. There were other innovators and various branches of style growing on the "jazz tree" but none were more profound than the giant canopy Miles Davis grew. 

The music itself isn't for everyone's palate.

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful analysis.  I'll have to revisit/rethink some of his stuff.

I'm a jazz nerd. Rarely have the opportunity to expound on it. 

A really good chronological encapsulation of Miles' lyricism over the stages of his career could be heard by listening to these tracks:

Bye, Bye Blackbird - from the Round About Midnight album - 1957
Generique - from the soundtrack album Ascenseur Pour L'Echafaud - 1958
So What - from the album Kind of Blue - 1959
Gone, Gone, Gone - from the album Porgy and Bess - 1959
Circle - from the album Miles Smiles - 1967
Sweet Pea - from the album Water Babies - 1968
Guinnevere - from the album [BLEEP] Brew - 1969

Even just a minute of each should give a listener some perspective on what makes him different than much of the popular jazz prior to his output and what was being done at the time. 
The final three listed there illustrate his inclusion of more modern and unconventional harmonies as well as introduction of non-traditional instrumentation.

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Is it safe to say that overrated is just another term for dislike?

In some instances and probably for most people. There are some groups with songs I like but the group was a lot more popular than how much I enjoyed their songs. For example, I like several of REM's songs, probably a greatest hits CD's worth. They are seen as one of the biggest groups of the 80's/90's, I didn't think their music was THAT good. But my list is a mix of both stuff I like and dislike. I will put on the list ANYTHING Jazz or Blues. If I am in a bar and there is Jazz playing, I am ok with that but it will never be played on a sound system that I control.

Dave Matthews
John Mayer- Say what you need to say MAY be the worst song ever written- are there other words than "Say what you need to say"? UGH!
Bruce Springsteen- dude sounds constipated.
Jimmy Buffet
The Doors
Michael Jackson
Backstreet Boys
Bob Dylan
Tom Petty- took singing lessons from Bob Dylan
Elvis Costello
Santana
Tina Turner
Aerosmith
Grateful Dead
Eric Clapton
John Lennon- outside of the Beatles
The Smith's
Gwar
Too many to list...

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Led Zeppelin.......and Stairway to Heaven is massively overrated.

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R.I.P. Stroudcrowd1

Led Zeppelin.......and Stairway to Heaven is massively overrated.

I could see the Led Zeppelin part but Stairway???     That's like saying Hotel California, Free Bird, or More than a feeling...

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Led Zeppelin.......and Stairway to Heaven is massively overrated.

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