Create Account



The Jungle is self-supported by showing advertisements via Google Adsense.
Please consider disabling your advertisement-blocking plugin on the Jungle to help support the site and let us grow!
We also show significantly less advertisements to registered users, so create your account to benefit from this!
Questions or concerns about this ad? Take a screenshot and comment in the thread. We do value your feedback.
Sudden Adult Death Syndrome

#41

Ok, Mikey.
Reply

We show less advertisements to registered users. Accounts are free; join today!


#42

Did the federal government require that hospitals mandate the vaccine or face severe and crippling penalties that would shut down their practices? Yes or no. Let's start there.
Reply

#43

(06-18-2022, 01:57 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Did the federal government require that hospitals mandate the vaccine or face severe and crippling penalties that would shut down their practices? Yes or no. Let's start there.

No, let's start with do hospitals require employees to be vaccinated regardless of federal mandate.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

#44

Lol. That's convenient, but it's backwards thinking. Can you show me that all hospitals would have implemented that policy without government interference? I bet you can't. Forced us a perfectly adequate word. You're just being obtuse.
Reply

#45

(06-18-2022, 06:27 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Lol. That's convenient, but it's backwards thinking. Can you show me that all hospitals would have implemented that policy without government interference? I bet you can't. Forced us a perfectly adequate word. You're just being obtuse.

Lol, yes, because we have those policies before the pandemic.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

We show less advertisements to registered users. Accounts are free; join today!


#46

No, dude. I am not asking if there was a flu vaccine mandate. I am asking if every hospital would have voluntarily mandated the Covid vaccine without government pressure. The answer is clearly no, but you're playing games.
Reply

#47

(06-18-2022, 07:55 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: No, dude. I am not asking if there was a flu vaccine mandate. I am asking if every hospital would have voluntarily mandated the Covid vaccine without government pressure. The answer is clearly no, but you're playing games.

Yes, they would've. Our IC Committee and Ethics Committee both had acquisition and mandatory implementation plans in place before the EUA was approved. The answer is just what you don't think it should be.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

#48

(06-17-2022, 09:15 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote:
(06-17-2022, 07:07 PM)copycat Wrote: Get the vaccine or get fired.  Pretty close to the same thing when you have a family to feed and bills to pay.  I expect better from you.

Not even close to the same thing. No one is forced to work in any particular job and no one has a right to any job. It's an agreement between two parties and the government as the unwelcome third party at the table. When one party cannot agree on the terms of the agreement then the agreement should terminate. When one party is forced to remain in the agreement past the point that they agree to the terms then we call that tyranny. When an employee does not wish to abide by the employer's terms then the relationship should end. Ownership and employment do not confer the same rights.

You fail to mention when someone was hired 20 years ago there was no vaccine mandate.  Also as mentioned by several posters many businesses were strong armed by the government to change the terms of employment to include getting the vaccine.  Feel free to spew all the legalese you can want but what happened with the mandates was morally wrong.
Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Reply

#49

(06-18-2022, 09:46 PM)copycat Wrote:
(06-17-2022, 09:15 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: Not even close to the same thing. No one is forced to work in any particular job and no one has a right to any job. It's an agreement between two parties and the government as the unwelcome third party at the table. When one party cannot agree on the terms of the agreement then the agreement should terminate. When one party is forced to remain in the agreement past the point that they agree to the terms then we call that tyranny. When an employee does not wish to abide by the employer's terms then the relationship should end. Ownership and employment do not confer the same rights.

You fail to mention when someone was hired 20 years ago there was no vaccine mandate.  Also as mentioned by several posters many businesses were strong armed by the government to change the terms of employment to include getting the vaccine.  Feel free to spew all the legalese you can want but what happened with the mandates was morally wrong.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. If you don't like the terms of your emoyment then find another job, that is the essence of the Free Market.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

We show less advertisements to registered users. Accounts are free; join today!


#50
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2022, 11:14 PM by Lucky2Last. Edited 1 time in total.)

(06-18-2022, 09:21 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote:
(06-18-2022, 07:55 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: No, dude. I am not asking if there was a flu vaccine mandate. I am asking if every hospital would have voluntarily mandated the Covid vaccine without government pressure. The answer is clearly no, but you're playing games.

Yes, they would've. Our IC Committee and Ethics Committee both had acquisition and mandatory implementation plans in place before the EUA was approved. The answer is just what you don't think it should be.

This is what we are arguing about: Did the government force people to take a novel vaccine? Who cares what your IC committee and ethics did? That's one hospital. It's no shocker that the administration at your hospital, who is stupid enough to fire 4% of its work force during a pandemic where there is a worker shortage ran with corrupt CDC data. I know for a fact that there were other hospitals in Jacksonville did not mandate vaccines until the due dates enacted by our government. That's all I need to win this debate. People were FORCED to choose between their job and the vaccine because our government created a penalty so stiff that hospitals (even ones that didn't want to mandate it) had to fire people who didn't want to take a novel vaccine. That's Federal compulsion, nitwit. Forced is absolutely the right word. 

I love that are hardcore libertarian wants to sidestep the government's role in imposing this on the people. I know, deep down, you feel guilty for firing those people, but instead of admitting it, you try to justify your complicity in this cash grab.

It's not the free market when there is a federal rule that fines the [BLEEP] out of companies that don't comply. It's no different than my taxes argument.
Reply

#51

Look man, let me back off the intensity here a little bit and see if I can frame this in a light that makes more sense to you. Let's say the government wanted CRT training for all people in corporations with over 100 people, so the executive branch created a mandate that imposed huge, crippling fines if employees didn't take 20 hours of training every year. People would be forced between attending their jobs or learning about their white privilege. That's federal compulsion, plain and simple.

Now, if I were to make that argument, I'm sure Mikey would hop on here and say, well, there were already many corporations that required CRT training. In fact, he might add, many corporations WANTED to CRT training, and there is a long, established history of companies making it a prerequisite to work there. Therefore, even though there might be some companies that didn't want to enforce CRT training, it is not the government's fault that they eventually had to make those concessions and fire the workers who didn't take CRT training.

Can you look at the above and tell me that people didn't lose their jobs because of a direct rule implemented by the federal government? How is that not compulsion? Do we need to get into the semantics of these terms?
Reply

#52

How about we agree that neither position was absolute?
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

#53

(06-18-2022, 11:23 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Look man, let me back off the intensity here a little bit and see if I can frame this in a light that makes more sense to you. Let's say the government wanted CRT training for all people in corporations with over 100 people, so the executive branch created a mandate that imposed huge, crippling fines if employees didn't take 20 hours of training every year. People would be forced between attending their jobs or learning about their white privilege. That's federal compulsion, plain and simple.

Now, if I were to make that argument, I'm sure Mikey would hop on here and say, well, there were already many corporations that required CRT training. In fact, he might add, many corporations WANTED to CRT training, and there is a long, established history of companies making it a prerequisite to work there. Therefore, even though there might be some companies that didn't want to enforce CRT training, it is not the government's fault that they eventually had to make those concessions and fire the workers who didn't take CRT training.

Can you look at the above and tell me that people didn't lose their jobs because of a direct rule implemented by the federal government? How is that not compulsion? Do we need to get into the semantics of these terms?

Bruh...
Reply

We show less advertisements to registered users. Accounts are free; join today!


#54

Don't bruh me.
Reply

#55

(06-19-2022, 09:17 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Don't bruh me.

You're comparing requiring crt (which you probably don't even know what it is) education to requiring people that work to keep people alive to be vaccinated against extremely transmittable and deadly diseases...
Reply

#56
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2022, 12:39 PM by Lucky2Last. Edited 1 time in total.)

You are woefully unread, even on this forum, if you think I don't understand CRT, bruh. I have done more reading on the origin of progressive ideology than any person on this board, and I have repeatedly engaged in lengthy discussions about the topic. I have even read original essays on CRT and listened to progenitors of the theory discuss it. Have you? I can name off many of the people who brought it to prominence and their contributions to CRT without looking it up. Can you? Don't you think it's a bit ignorant to assume someone is unlearned in a subject matter? I often find the people most willing to brazenly make that accusation only do so because they know nothing about the subject and believe others are just like them. Hopefully, that doesn't describe you. You don't have to answer that, though.

I didn't pick CRT on accident. I specifically chose it as a stand in for vaccines because I am debating the role the GOVERNMENT played in pressuring businesses into FORCING it on their employees, and I thought FSG might be better able to see my point if I used something he disagrees with. The differences between the two are irrelevant, because I am not speaking to the efficacy of either. I'm simply running a parallel narrative in the hopes that FSG can see how there was federal compulsion in this matter. Maybe you could get that if you were thinking instead of being condescending, bruh.

Bruh.
Reply

#57

(06-19-2022, 12:38 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: You are woefully unread, even on this forum, if you think I don't understand CRT, bruh. I have done more reading on the origin of progressive ideology than any person on this board, and I have repeatedly engaged in lengthy discussions about the topic. I have even read original essays on CRT and listened to progenitors of the theory discuss it. Have you? I can name off many of the people who brought it to prominence and their contributions to CRT without looking it up. Can you? Don't you think it's a bit ignorant to assume someone is unlearned in a subject matter? I often find the people most willing to brazenly make that accusation only do so because they know nothing about the subject and believe others are just like them. Hopefully, that doesn't describe you. You don't have to answer that, though. 

I didn't pick CRT on accident. I specifically chose it as a stand in for vaccines because I am debating the role the GOVERNMENT played in pressuring businesses into FORCING it on their employees, and I thought FSG might be better able to see my point if I used something he disagrees with. The differences between the two are irrelevant, because I am not speaking to the efficacy of either. I'm simply running a parallel narrative in the hopes that FSG can see how there was federal compulsion in this matter. Maybe you could get that if you were thinking instead of being condescending, bruh.

Bruh.

Laughing
Reply

We show less advertisements to registered users. Accounts are free; join today!


#58

I accept your acquiescence.
Reply

#59

And no, the government didn't force anyone. Having a choice that results in distasteful outcomes is still a choice. No one was conscripted, no one enslaved, no one was restrained and injected against their will. Not getting what you want isn't the same as being forced.

And in your example you forgot to mention that those companies had required diversity training before they added the CRT. And in that case you still have the choice to attend the training or go find yourself a different job. They aren't strapping you into a chair and holding your eyes open to make you watch. You know this, it's just easier for you to abandon your Libertarian bent towards property rights than to accept that your take on the vaccine isn't God's Truth.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Reply

#60
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2022, 11:22 PM by Lucky2Last.)

Cool, so like not paying your taxes. They aren't forcing you to pay. They just give you huge fines or lock you up if you don't pay. People have a choice. Just do what they say or lose out on your livelihood.

I don't have a libertarian bend towards anything. I think libertarianism is just another ideal that is rooted in stupidity. I am for a federal government that judiciously exercises its authority, primarily via congressional approval, and a strong, powerful government at the local level with expanding powers for executive powers the smaller the government gets (provided they can be voted out). I think corporations have discretion to hire or fire people, but only if there are true free market principles in play. That goes out the window when the GOVERNMENT gives them a MANDATE. Why are you being [BLEEP]?

Also, I have no idea what you were trying to add with your last paragraph. With free market principles, companies would be free to choose whether or not they taught CRT without a government mandate. Without them, people who have been in an industry for 20 years lose there jobs because there is literally no other company that can withstand that kind of punishment from the government. There are not free market principles at play, neither in the example I gave, nor the vaccine mandate. Hospital workers can not get another hospital job.
Reply




Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

The Jungle is self-supported by showing advertisements via Google Adsense.
Please consider disabling your advertisement-blocking plugin on the Jungle to help support the site and let us grow!
We also show less advertisements to registered users, so create your account to benefit from this!
Questions or concerns about this ad? Take a screenshot and comment in the thread. We do value your feedback.


ABOUT US
The Jungle Forums is the Jaguars' biggest fan message board. Talking about the Jags since 2006, the Jungle was the team-endorsed home of all things Jaguars.

Since 2017, the Jungle is now independent of the team but still run by the same crew. We are here to support and discuss all things Jaguars and all things Duval!