Link?  Any proof at all?

Link for what?  UDFA's are able to pick which team they want to go too. He set the record for Miami receiving yards in a season.  He had plenty of options if you use that little peanut of yours, you shouldn't need a link

As I assumed.  Just pulling ‘facts’ out of thin air.  You have no idea why he signed with Jacksonville.

Kind of ironic you would talk about anybody having a little peanut.

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When were Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne ever "marginally talented?"

I think he mean Stokes, Clark, our old TE from Den etc.

1.  Ketchman was long gone from Jacksonville by the time Manning was in Denver, IIRC.

2.  He was spectacularly wrong about WRs being a dime a dozen then, like he was about many other things.

3.  If you refer mostly to his Denver years, the overwhelming bulk of his career he had an abundance of supporting skill position talent.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Vic was saying that in the context of Brady and Manning constantly making marginally talented receivers into statistical superstars.  There are dozens of receivers who could put up pro bowl numbers with the right QB throwing to them.  Vic just took it too far.

When were Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne ever "marginally talented?"

Vic was more talking about Dieon Branch and the other "stars" Brady had in NE before Moss came along.
But yeah, statistically neither Wayne nor Harrison amounted to much without a Manning or a Luck throwing to them. They were still number one receivers, but their numbers were puny.
So Vic drew a conclusion from that, maybe the wrong conclusion, but the numbers are what they are.
Harrison's numbers were still pathetic in Manning's first year in 1998. Did Manning get better at the game between 98 in 99 or was it Harrison or both?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

When were Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne ever "marginally talented?"

Vic was more talking about Dieon Branch and the other "stars" Brady had in NE before Moss came along.
But yeah, statistically neither Wayne nor Harrison amounted to much without a Manning or a Luck throwing to them. They were still number one receivers, but their numbers were puny.
So Vic drew a conclusion from that, maybe the wrong conclusion, but the numbers are what they are.
Harrison's numbers were still pathetic in Manning's first year in 1998.  Did Manning get better at the game between 98 in 99 or was it Harrison or both?

Both Harrison and Wayne were first round picks.  Sterling Sharpe, who was doing anaysis for ESPN at the time, said Harrison was the best receiver in that draft.

As for Harrison's pre Manning numbers, he had 64 catches 836 yards and 8 TDs his rookie year, 73 catches, 866 yards and 6 TDs his 2nd year, and 59-776 and  7 TDs in 12 games his 3rd year.  WHile those numbers were small compared to the rest of his career, those numbers would have him labeled as a future star here in Jacksonville.  His rookie year numbers were very similar to Justin Blackmon's rookie season here and exceeded the rookie seasons of every ither Jaguars drafted WR in team history. His 2 seasons of pre Manning productivity and his first season under Manning (while Manning was a rookie) easily eclipses the 3 tear totals of every drafted Jaguars WR in team history.

As for Reggie Wayne, he was drafted out of the University of miami-a school with a long history of producing talented WRs dating back to Eddie Brown  in the 1980s.   He played his first ten (10) seasons under with Manning at QB, and it took him about three years to develop into the receiver we largely know him to be. Manning was still Manning those three years and he wasn't overly productive.   His first season played without Manning was 2011, and Wayne still caught 75 for 960 yards.  When Andrew Luck came aboard in 2012, he had 106 catches for over 1300 yards and went to the Pro Bowl.  It wasn't until 2013-his 13th year of football, that his numbers really fell off-which were his last two seasons in the league.  Somehow penalizing Wayne for his production falling off in his 13th year of football doesn't make much sense, especially after he had 6 Pro bowl seasons.

Granted having a great QB like Manning can make a good QR very good or even great.  But to suggest their production was solely the result of manning and not their own individual skills/ability is disingenuous.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Hurns came here because of his relationship with Jedd Fisch and his familiarity with that offense was why he produced immediately. Like so many others, once other teams had film on him then his productivity declined to just being a possession guy. Having terrible QB play certainly didn't help, but Hurns was really just an average guy anyway; lots of heart but just average talent.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Hurns came here because of his relationship with Jedd Fisch and his familiarity with that offense was why he produced immediately. Like so many others, once other teams had film on him then his productivity declined to just being a possession guy. Having terrible QB play certainly didn't help, but Hurns was really just an average guy anyway; lots of heart but just average talent.

I have it on good authority that your wrong.  He could of went anywhere.

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Hurns came here because of his relationship with Jedd Fisch and his familiarity with that offense was why he produced immediately. Like so many others, once other teams had film on him then his productivity declined to just being a possession guy. Having terrible QB play certainly didn't help, but Hurns was really just an average guy anyway; lots of heart but just average talent.

(Emphasis added)

No matter how you slice it, Hurns still managed to out produce Jaguars WRs drafted in the first round-and most in the 2nd round.

If he were average at best who benefitted from familiarity with Fisch's system, he shouldn't have been more productive than guys drafted at the top of the draft.  It shouldn't even be a contest.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Just watched the Sam Mills football life and caught myself dreaming about Joh Allen, Travon Walker, Foyesade Oluokun and Devin Lloyd developing into Duval’s own version of the dome patrol lbs corps.

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Respect the game.  Play with a sense of urgency. 


1.)  Take care of the ball.  Win the turnover battle.

2.)  It's all about 3rd down.  Win on 3rd down to win the game.

3.) Playmakers make plays.  The only reason that you put your uniform on is to make plays. In order to EARN your paycheck, you must make plays.  

I liked what I saw from the first game.  Walker showed power and even was drawing chips from the opposing line.  A very small sample size but he looks good so far.

Look at the power he displays here.  He is going against an NFL starer here and watch how he uses his power to push his blocker deep into the backfield. He then tosses the blocker off and makes the sack.  You can't coach that.


https://twitter.com/ClutchPointsApp/stat...kers-debut

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8

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I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

I think a fair sample size for Baalke was his entire SF career as GM (2011-2015) and his two years as Jaguars' GM.  That's seven drafts total.  Given how easy it supposedly is to find WRs in the draft, for him to not have ANY competent WRs drafted furing that stint is telling, irrespective of how many first round picks he spent at the position.

As for Caldwell, I don't assert he had a great record as a GM generally, or a great record in drafting WRs specifically.  But it's beyond dispute he was better at drafting at the position than any other GM we've ever had.

TC's forays into drafting at the position were disasters.

In 1996, he spent a lot of late round draft picks at the position, with almost nothing to show for them.  His biggest hit was Reggie Barlow, who had one Pro bowl season as a punt returner.  1996 was a great WR draft, that featured, among others, WR Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens.

In 1998, he used a late pick on Alvis Whitted, who had arguably the biggest and worst drop of a pass in team history in the second half of the AFC Championship game in 1999.  For his entire Jaguars career, he had a grand total of 17 catches.  Keep in mind, his initial plan was to trade up in that draft for Curtis Enis, and that was with Randy Moss on the board.  

In 2000 he drafted R Jay Soward in the first round, and came back with WR Emmanuel Smith in the 4th.  Do we really need to re hash that?

In 2001m he used a 7th round pick in Richmond Flowers, and in 2002 he spent a late pick on Kendall Newsome.

Out of all of those year, the only remotely productive drafted WR was Reggie Barlow, and that was as a punt returner.

He was followed by Shack Harris.

Harris wasted draft picks on Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford, Chad Owens, Mike Sims Walker and John Broussard.  Wilford was probably the best out of that group, and he ran at best a 4.7 40.  He never made any Pro Bowls, though he did have one noteworthy game.

Gene Smith?  We've long established he never drafted any Pro bowl players and he was clearly the worst GM in team history.  His last year, he drafted Justin Blackmon, who very clearly had the talent to be a star, but had unmitigated substance dependence problems.  He easily ranks as one of the biggest draft disappointments in team history.  There was also a mid round gamble on Jarret Dillard out of Rice who never amounted to anything for us. 

In two seasons, Baalke has yet to draft a WR for the Jaguars.

Observing that Caldwell was the best at drafting WRs in this group is not the same as saying Caldwell was a good GM.  But "in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king..."  WHen it comes to drafting acquiring productive rookie WRs, Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history.

Caldwell is the best of a bad group when it came to identifying/drafting WR talent in the draft.  Again, that doesn't emphasize how good he was, but how bad the organization's GMs as a whole have been when it comes to drafting WRs.

Context is important.  A Russian newspaper once reported that a Russian came in second in a race while the American came in second to last.  It was factually correct.  However, they failed to mention that it was a two person race.  Context is important.

You criticize Baalke for failing to draft a stud wide receiver but fail to mention that he hasn't used a Day 1 or Day 2 draft pick on wide receiver in over a decade and that was the one and only one time he had ever done so.  With that one single exception, his inability to draft a stud wide receiver is a matter of not making a serious effort to do so instead of him trying and failing.  Context is important.  

As for Caldwell, you said that there was no reason to believe the Jaguars could do better at drafting a wide receiver than if Caldwell did it.  I don't believe in voodoo Jaguar curses and therefore the record of Coughlin/Harris/Smith is irrelevant.  If Caldwell sucked slightly less than them at drafting wide receivers, it doesn't mean we have to accept that as the best that we can ever do.  Caldwell's record at wide receiver is mixed at best.  It's not unreasonable to expect the Jaguars going forward to do better than Caldwell.  That was the original argument.

---

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

I think a fair sample size for Baalke was his entire SF career as GM (2011-2015) and his two years as Jaguars' GM.  That's seven drafts total.  Given how easy it supposedly is to find WRs in the draft, for him to not have ANY competent WRs drafted furing that stint is telling, irrespective of how many first round picks he spent at the position.

As for Caldwell, I don't assert he had a great record as a GM generally, or a great record in drafting WRs specifically.  But it's beyond dispute he was better at drafting at the position than any other GM we've ever had.

TC's forays into drafting at the position were disasters.

In 1996, he spent a lot of late round draft picks at the position, with almost nothing to show for them.  His biggest hit was Reggie Barlow, who had one Pro bowl season as a punt returner.  1996 was a great WR draft, that featured, among others, WR Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens.

In 1998, he used a late pick on Alvis Whitted, who had arguably the biggest and worst drop of a pass in team history in the second half of the AFC Championship game in 1999.  For his entire Jaguars career, he had a grand total of 17 catches.  Keep in mind, his initial plan was to trade up in that draft for Curtis Enis, and that was with Randy Moss on the board.  

In 2000 he drafted R Jay Soward in the first round, and came back with WR Emmanuel Smith in the 4th.  Do we really need to re hash that?

In 2001m he used a 7th round pick in Richmond Flowers, and in 2002 he spent a late pick on Kendall Newsome.

Out of all of those year, the only remotely productive drafted WR was Reggie Barlow, and that was as a punt returner.

He was followed by Shack Harris.

Harris wasted draft picks on Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford, Chad Owens, Mike Sims Walker and John Broussard.  Wilford was probably the best out of that group, and he ran at best a 4.7 40.  He never made any Pro Bowls, though he did have one noteworthy game.

Gene Smith?  We've long established he never drafted any Pro bowl players and he was clearly the worst GM in team history.  His last year, he drafted Justin Blackmon, who very clearly had the talent to be a star, but had unmitigated substance dependence problems.  He easily ranks as one of the biggest draft disappointments in team history.  There was also a mid round gamble on Jarret Dillard out of Rice who never amounted to anything for us. 

In two seasons, Baalke has yet to draft a WR for the Jaguars.

Observing that Caldwell was the best at drafting WRs in this group is not the same as saying Caldwell was a good GM.  But "in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king..."  WHen it comes to drafting acquiring productive rookie WRs, Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history.

Caldwell is the best of a bad group when it came to identifying/drafting WR talent in the draft.  Again, that doesn't emphasize how good he was, but how bad the organization's GMs as a whole have been when it comes to drafting WRs.

Context is important.  A Russian newspaper once reported that a Russian came in second in a race while the American came in second to last.  It was factually correct.  However, they failed to mention that it was a two person race.  Context is important.

You criticize Baalke for failing to draft a stud wide receiver but fail to mention that he hasn't used a Day 1 or Day 2 draft pick on wide receiver in over a decade and that was the one and only one time he had ever done so.  With that one single exception, his inability to draft a stud wide receiver is a matter of not making a serious effort to do so instead of him trying and failing.  Context is important.  

As for Caldwell, you said that there was no reason to believe the Jaguars could do better at drafting a wide receiver than if Caldwell did it.  I don't believe in voodoo Jaguar curses and therefore the record of Coughlin/Harris/Smith is irrelevant.  If Caldwell sucked slightly less than them at drafting wide receivers, it doesn't mean we have to accept that as the best that we can ever do.  Caldwell's record at wide receiver is mixed at best.  It's not unreasonable to expect the Jaguars going forward to do better than Caldwell.  That was the original argument.

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3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

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3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

You already know the answer to your question.

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"Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history."

That's an awfully low bar to set. All Baakle has to do is draft 1 decent WR, and that will make them even.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

You should just book mark this and re-up the post in 2+ years when the question should actually be asked, so it can actually be answered. Playing hindsight/what if games after 2 months of practice and 1 preseason game has always been and will always be dumb my dude.

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I believe Sacksonville will return. However, I see Travon Walker with maybe 5.5 sacks. I feel he will have far more QB pressures.

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I think he mean Stokes, Clark, our old TE from Den etc.

1.  Ketchman was long gone from Jacksonville by the time Manning was in Denver, IIRC.

2.  He was spectacularly wrong about WRs being a dime a dozen then, like he was about many other things.

3.  If you refer mostly to his Denver years, the overwhelming bulk of his career he had an abundance of supporting skill position talent.

I used to argue with Vic about Favre. He said Brett looked old and cold. I sent him a message that he used in his daily Ask Vic that said Favre had plenty of football left. He disagreed.

Favre went on to take the Vikings to the playoffs and turned Sidney Rice into a star WR. 

I do agree that WRs are a dime a dozen but I also think there are super star WRs like Hopkins, Megatron, Jimmy Smith, etc. If your not a stud WR, you fall into the dime a dozen category.

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3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

You already know the answer to your question.

Yes I would to answer the question. Yall still wouldnt?

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Sorry to bring this up from so long ago, but I was on vacation. Seeing how many of us really liked guys like Pickens and Skyy Moore and considering how spectacular they are looking, you would really have Lloyd over Pickens and then what we could have gotten with the early 4th? Especially considering we wound up with Muma?

Pickens, Muma, and Zach Tom (who is also getting rave reviews from the Packers beat) would give us a better team than Lloyd and Muma IMO.

You already know the answer to your question.

Yes I would to answer the question.  Yall still wouldnt?

Don't do this.

You're trying to claim victory 3 weeks into all these players careers. It's why you never answered the question initially and then went back to find a thread where the last post was 8/15 lol

Pickens and Trevor would be incredible together.

I'm happy the Jags have Lloyd because he's playing really well but I also think Pickens would be a serious X-factor on this team.

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