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The OT Conundrum Thread

#21

(01-25-2023, 12:41 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 10:53 AM)Caldrac Wrote: Taylor - Out
Robinson & Little compete for LT this summer - Loser moves to RT
Draft focus goes towards LG early with a developmental OT late to eventually replace Robinson

Little will be playing RT in this scenario. Robinson has already beat him out the past 2 seasons.

I don't think that's automatic. 
Little protected the QB better than Cam did by comparison in their respective time at LT in 2022.
(IMO)
Fewer penalties too, I'd wager.  Cam jumps too often.
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#22

(01-25-2023, 01:15 PM)Cleatwood Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 01:06 PM)mikesez Wrote: Robinson cut after June 1 reduces the cap hit from awful to manageable. 
But they would only do that if they think they've found a replacement with better value.  And that's unlikely.  Could they restructure Cam?
We can stop bringing this up because it's not going to happen.

It's actually a small savings compared to what he costs on the roster, but it's over $20 million either way.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#23

Where does Bartch fit into people's plans? I wonder if we can keep Taylor if Bartch and Little compete for LG. Just feel Little needs to be starting somewhere on the line.
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#24

(01-25-2023, 02:21 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: Where does Bartch fit into people's plans? I wonder if we can keep Taylor if Bartch and Little compete for LG. Just feel Little needs to be starting somewhere on the line.

If Little needs to start then the cost savings says he starts at right tackle. Bartch is the front runner at LG to start the season.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#25

(01-25-2023, 02:21 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: Where does Bartch fit into people's plans? I wonder if we can keep Taylor if Bartch and Little compete for LG. Just feel Little needs to be starting somewhere on the line.

Bartch will either start at LG or become the primary backup guard if Little or a draft pick win the spot. 
We're still a ways away from knowing whether Little will even be in the mix at LG, but Pederson has cracked  open the window of possibility. 

Having too many viable starters is not going to be the problem IMO.
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#26
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2023, 02:45 PM by JagFanatic24.)

(01-25-2023, 02:04 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 12:41 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: Little will be playing RT in this scenario. Robinson has already beat him out the past 2 seasons.

I don't think that's automatic. 
Little protected the QB better than Cam did by comparison in their respective time at LT in 2022.
(IMO)
Fewer penalties too, I'd wager.  Cam jumps too often.

It was already proven 2 seasons in a row. (FACT)
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#27
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2023, 02:48 PM by JagFan81.)

(01-25-2023, 02:39 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 02:21 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: Where does Bartch fit into people's plans? I wonder if we can keep Taylor if Bartch and Little compete for LG. Just feel Little needs to be starting somewhere on the line.

Bartch will either start at LG or become the primary backup guard if Little or a draft pick win the spot. 
We're still a ways away from knowing whether Little will even be in the mix at LG, but Pederson has cracked  open the window of possibility. 

Having too many viable starters is not going to be the problem IMO.

Oh definitely not. No such thing as too much depth and with Taylor's future a bit of a question mark and need to see how Robinson returns from that injury we need to have some answers just in case.

(01-25-2023, 02:22 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 02:21 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: Where does Bartch fit into people's plans? I wonder if we can keep Taylor if Bartch and Little compete for LG. Just feel Little needs to be starting somewhere on the line.

If Little needs to start then the cost savings says he starts at right tackle. Bartch is the front runner at LG to start the season.

I agree, right now it looks most likely Taylor walks and Little goes RT and we add a rookie or cheap FA for depth.

I fear keeping Taylor would mean not being able to bring back 2 or 3 guys. Hopefully we can find a way to keep everyone we want but just can't see it right now.
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#28

(01-25-2023, 02:45 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 02:04 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: I don't think that's automatic. 
Little protected the QB better than Cam did by comparison in their respective time at LT in 2022.
(IMO)
Fewer penalties too, I'd wager.  Cam jumps too often.

It was already proven 2 seasons in a row. (FACT)

Ummmm...

Whatever evaluation happened in August of 2022 will be straight out the window when they decide 2023 starters. 

Whatever "fact" you think you are stating is already invalid and expired. 

The new evaluation will consider Little's 2022/23 performance at LT, and he looked better than Cam did to many fans and analysts who have offered opinions thus far.
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#29

How was Bartch performing at LG prior to his injury? I know we invested a decent pick on him. Small school prospect. At the minimum he's a serviceable back-up.
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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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#30

Restructure Robinson converting future salary/cap hit this year to signing bonus or guaranteed cash. This can free up enough space to retain Jawaan Taylor and give Robinson the security that he won't be cut coming off the meniscus injury.

Have all 3 players compete for all 3 spots and whoever ends up as the 3rd/Swing Tackle can maybe kick inside to Guard if we don't spend a high pick there. We have to retain the depth and talent on our Oline, we can't afford to cut costs on protecting Trevor after what's happened to Burrow.
Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
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#31

(01-25-2023, 03:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: How was Bartch performing at LG prior to his injury? I know we invested a decent pick on him. Small school prospect. At the minimum he's a serviceable back-up.

Not that good in pass protection and a decent to good run blocker
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#32

(01-25-2023, 03:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: How was Bartch performing at LG prior to his injury? I know we invested a decent pick on him. Small school prospect. At the minimum he's a serviceable back-up.

He played well before injury. Only allowed one sack/pressure before getting hurt, and the year prior he got a vote in the probowl players poll "who's the best player in the NFL no one knows about/Has never made a probowl" or something along those lines.
Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
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#33

(01-25-2023, 03:33 PM)Firesky Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 03:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: How was Bartch performing at LG prior to his injury? I know we invested a decent pick on him. Small school prospect. At the minimum he's a serviceable back-up.

He played well before injury. Only allowed one sack/pressure before getting hurt, and the year prior he got a vote in the probowl players poll "who's the best player in the NFL no one knows about/Has never made a probowl" or something along those lines.
I know Lageman was high on him towards the end of 2021's season. Hopefully he's ready to rock and roll by training camp.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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#34

(01-25-2023, 02:46 PM)JagFan81 Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 02:39 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Bartch will either start at LG or become the primary backup guard if Little or a draft pick win the spot. 
We're still a ways away from knowing whether Little will even be in the mix at LG, but Pederson has cracked  open the window of possibility. 

Having too many viable starters is not going to be the problem IMO.

Oh definitely not. No such thing as too much depth and with Taylor's future a bit of a question mark and need to see how Robinson returns from that injury we need to have some answers just in case.

(01-25-2023, 02:22 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: If Little needs to start then the cost savings says he starts at right tackle. Bartch is the front runner at LG to start the season.

I agree, right now it looks most likely Taylor walks and Little goes RT and we add a rookie or cheap FA for depth.

I fear keeping Taylor would mean not being able to bring back 2 or 3 guys. Hopefully we can find a way to keep everyone we want but just can't see it right now.

Here’s what they do… 

1. Taylor walks
2. Cam plays one more year at LT.
3. Walker starts at RT and is Cam’s backup.
4. Team drafts a LG/C prospect to challenge Fortner and Bartsch or groom to replace Scherff.
5. Team drafts a RT prospect to take over RT in 2024 when Little permanently moved to LT. 

Or, convince another team during training camp, when their LT goes down, to take Cam for a draft pick and some salary cap absorption/splitting.
"I am only an average man, but by George, I work harder at it than the average man." - Teddy Roosevelt

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#35

(01-25-2023, 12:04 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 11:35 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: 1000000% agree here

I know the reasons they stuck with Robinson and gave him a contract but imagine they let Robinson walk and just had Little be the starting LT. Now they can just give Taylor his contract and the Jags are set.

Robinson has 22 mil in dead money against our cap if he walks. I think that means you HAVE to do the due diligence and see if he can play RT or not. 

Now, if you meant to phrase that in the past tense, yes, they likely would have been better off if they had let him walk. 
I get why they wanted to cover their butts in that situation though. Young QB who had his rookie year screwed by incompetence - best make sure he has some depth in protection etc.

Wonder if anybody would be willing to trade for him and take that contract withem. Even if we didn't get a high draft pick.
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#36
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2023, 07:45 PM by OG-JAGFAN.)

(01-25-2023, 12:16 PM)Caldrac Wrote: They were damned if they do, damned if they don't with the Robinson situation. We had no inclination that Little would have been better in 2022 and Taylor just had a career year, albeit, exclusively in pass protection, not so much in run blocking.

It does hamper things quite a bit though and they ultimately invested that 2nd RD selection on Little for this scenario in particular. I think ideally, you have to consider the roster as it stands.

We don't have anybody in the TE room officially outside of Farrell. You at least have Little who can step in here and start. I know Baalke said he would rather not tag anybody. But, I would try and get a deal done with Engram and tag Taylor. Just to give yourself some flexibility with the draft.

You're going to hinder your free agency options by tagging Taylor, but, really would hate to see this team hurting along the offensive line if we're in the middle of a deep play off push in December.

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The Franchise tag for OT is $17million.  IDK if they can afford to do that.

(01-25-2023, 03:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: How was Bartch performing at LG prior to his injury? I know we invested a decent pick on him. Small school prospect. At the minimum he's a serviceable back-up.

Bartch was not good.
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#37
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2023, 08:33 PM by rfc17. Edited 1 time in total.)

Mentioned this on the draft board as well. I originally thought they'd let Taylor walk but after playing around on spotrac and looking at some of our high priced contracts, a lot of these can be restructured to push cap money into future years. We have a ton of space going into 2024. So they can easily move contracts around and then sign Taylor if they want to. I know there is the risk he is a one year wonder playing on his contract year, but he was arguably the best lineman on the team. letting him go would be a big setback. No one on the roster likely plays as well at RT as he did this past season. And then you also create depth issues so now we're weaker in two spots. I think they find a way to bring Taylor back.

My guess at this point is they bring the top 7 guys back (Taylor, Cam, Little, Fortner, Scherff, Bartch, and Shatley). Now going back to the 2024 cap. Not only do we currently have a ton of space now. Both Scherff and Cam can be released after the 2023 year and bring us huge cap savings. huge! If we push a ton of cap into future years this offseason, I think there is a very good chance both of them are gone after 2023. And we go into 2024 with Little starting at LT (and possibly winning the job in 2023 at some point) and Taylor at RT. Fortner still at center ( think the team likes him). RG would be a hole. Backup OT would be a hole. And LG not sure what will happen.

Saying all that I think there is a decent chance they still address offensive line in this upcoming draft. But it would be more for depth, with an off chance of winning the LG job. But also for an eye towards 2024 knowing Scherff is likely a goner and very possibly Cam as well.


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#38

I think the chance of resigning Jawaan Taylor is low.  Cam Robinson costs us more to cut (or trade) than to keep.  As such, Cam will be back.  Little is still on a rookie deal and has played well.  He will be back.  You have to remember our situation.  We're over the salary cap.  When you're over the cap, you are asking yourself "who can we cut/not resign and still have a starter on the roster?"  Hello?  The answer is offensive tackle.  Why cut a starter or two at other positions where we don't have a replacement when we could simply let Jawaan walk and still have starting caliber tackles?  If the team does resign Taylor, it will be through some major backloading of contracts and I don't think that's wise.  We're already going to have to do it a little bit to get under the cap and to sign Engram and some other existing players.  Doing it to a larger degree isn't good for the team's long term success.  

As such, Robinson and Little are our tackles in 2023.  Ideally, it would be nice if we could find a player in the upcoming draft that could plug and play as our starting left guard in 2023 and then be our right tackle of the future in 2024 and beyond.  Cam Robinson will be cut after the 2023 season with Little moving to left for the 2024 season.
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#39

(01-25-2023, 06:39 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: Here’s what they do… 

1. Taylor walks
2. Cam plays one more year at LT.
3. Walker starts at RT and is Cam’s backup.
4. Team drafts a LG/C prospect to challenge Fortner and Bartsch or groom to replace Scherff.
5. Team drafts a RT prospect to take over RT in 2024 when Little permanently moved to LT. 

Or, convince another team during training camp, when their LT goes down, to take Cam for a draft pick and some salary cap absorption/splitting.

1. Yep
2. Yep
3. I put Walker at LG
4. Based on 3, Bartch is primary backup, placeholder for 2024 LG. If we do pick another player, it will be a late pick/depth prospect
5. Yep, but rook gets the start and is expected to be the fixture there.

If another team comes calling for Cam before the trade deadline, I can work with accelarating the 2024 plan into 2023, for the right pick(s) of course.
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#40

(01-25-2023, 10:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: I think the chance of resigning Jawaan Taylor is low.  Cam Robinson costs us more to cut (or trade) than to keep.  As such, Cam will be back.  Little is still on a rookie deal and has played well.  He will be back.  You have to remember our situation.  We're over the salary cap.  When you're over the cap, you are asking yourself "who can we cut/not resign and still have a starter on the roster?"  Hello?  The answer is offensive tackle.  Why cut a starter or two at other positions where we don't have a replacement when we could simply let Jawaan walk and still have starting caliber tackles?  If the team does resign Taylor, it will be through some major backloading of contracts and I don't think that's wise.  We're already going to have to do it a little bit to get under the cap and to sign Engram and some other existing players.  Doing it to a larger degree isn't good for the team's long term success.  

As such, Robinson and Little are our tackles in 2023.  Ideally, it would be nice if we could find a player in the upcoming draft that could plug and play as our starting left guard in 2023 and then be our right tackle of the future in 2024 and beyond.  Cam Robinson will be cut after the 2023 season with Little moving to left for the 2024 season.

There's no problem with backloading contracts for guys you expect to play them out. In the case of Taylor you can afford to go out 4 years because at his age you expect him to be here for all of them. Our strategy during the Caldwell years was to front load so you could get rid of guys after year 2 and I don't think we use that model for resigning our own players, only as a hedge against veteran guys you're bringing in. It's why we have such high 1st and 2nd year cap figures for last year's FA class, Baalke kept that model for incoming guys, but I don't see it being used for homegrown players that you already know. Dead money is the problem and that only happens if you get rid of the player. I don't see that happening with Taylor if we go long on the deal.
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