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What does that draft say to you?


(05-19-2023, 08:35 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 07:58 AM)Mikey Wrote: If I want a guy bad enough, I'll lie to your face to get what I want.

Sure I might have to repay the favor down the road to win back some trust, but I wouldn't rely on anything anyone says on darft night.

I also heard we were considering a trade for Jonah Williams. Could you imagine THAT stinkeroo of a deal?

That’s you. Do real GMs play so fast and loose with trust? Seems like a bad way to do business.

Yeah, I don't think GMs lie to each other much when doing trades. The whole league would know who is the liar and not many would trade with him.
"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23
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(05-19-2023, 10:06 AM)iHaunting Raven Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 08:35 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: That’s you. Do real GMs play so fast and loose with trust? Seems like a bad way to do business.

Yeah, I don't think GMs lie to each other much when doing trades. The whole league would know who is the liar and not many would trade with him.

I agree - it is likely very uncommon for these guys to deceive in that manner.

Ironically - this is exactly the kind of behavior Baalke was accused of during the whole clown campaign.
We were told no one would do business with him and he was hated around the league. 
That was clearly a load of bull [BLEEP]
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(05-19-2023, 10:08 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 10:06 AM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: Yeah, I don't think GMs lie to each other much when doing trades. The whole league would know who is the liar and not many would trade with him.

I agree - it is likely very uncommon for these guys to deceive in that manner.

Ironically - this is exactly the kind of behavior Baalke was accused of during the whole clown campaign.
We were told no one would do business with him and he was hated around the league. 
That was clearly a load of bull [BLEEP]

What about our inability to move up while others were doing so makes you think other GMs want to work with the guy? We moved down twice in the 1st round and only walked out with late round picks to do so while our other trade downs netted similar lackluster results. Based on what we just saw I think there's some merit to the idea that others don't care for him or want to do business with him.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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(05-19-2023, 08:05 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 07:58 AM)Mikey Wrote: If I want a guy bad enough, I'll lie to your face to get what I want.

Sure I might have to repay the favor down the road to win back some trust, but I wouldn't rely on anything anyone says on darft night.

I also heard we were considering a trade for Jonah Williams. Could you imagine THAT stinkeroo of a deal?

The Giants and the Bills both kept their promises, and we did not trade for Jonah Williams.

So why be negative about things that did not happen?

And besides, if the Giants or the Bills had betrayed us, the whole league would've known about it, and who would trust them then?  So they weren't going to do that.

There's a big difference between "we evaluated our board, the deals offered and the likelihood that our guy would still be on the board, and that's why we made the deal" and "the gints pinky promised they weren't taking our guy so we were happy to get a late round pick to let them jump ahead of us"

Whether another GM pays you lip service or not, you're still taking on risk moving off the pick. The new team could just as easily trade the pick to someone else who did want the offensive player, for the right price. Technically, the team upheld their promise to us, right? 

If either team took an offensive player when we moved, we'd have looked the fools for allowing ourselves to get duped so easily. If we took offense to being lied to, I imagine the sentiment around the league would have been "well, duh!" or something a little more professional with the same dismissive ridicule attached.

I'm not decrying our moves. We gambled, and it worked out. But if we are seriously thinking that a rival team's word was security enough to mitigate the risk of moving, we are in fact fools.
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(05-19-2023, 08:35 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 07:58 AM)Mikey Wrote: If I want a guy bad enough, I'll lie to your face to get what I want.

Sure I might have to repay the favor down the road to win back some trust, but I wouldn't rely on anything anyone says on darft night.

I also heard we were considering a trade for Jonah Williams. Could you imagine THAT stinkeroo of a deal?

That’s you. Do real GMs play so fast and loose with trust? Seems like a bad way to do business.

Go back to the '21 darft. The Jest come calling, and want to slide up to 1, professing to you that Zach Wilson is their guy and they don't want to risk you trading the pick away to someone that covets him.

You know Lawrence is your guy, so the deal is basically free picks from whatever the Jest are offering to move up.

You taking that deal?
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(05-19-2023, 11:19 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 08:35 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: That’s you. Do real GMs play so fast and loose with trust? Seems like a bad way to do business.

Go back to the '21 darft. The Jest come calling, and want to slide up to 1, professing to you that Zach Wilson is their guy and they don't want to risk you trading the pick away to someone that covets him.

You know Lawrence is your guy, so the deal is basically free picks from whatever the Jest are offering to move up.

You taking that deal?

Did this actually happen or is it a hypothetical? 

If it’s a hypothetical, then you’re making the assumption that 1) The Jets GM would blatantly lie and 2) If he was willing to lie, would anyone believe they would take Wilson over Lawrence who was far and away the #1 pick? 

If you’re going to paint a picture of deception to fit your narrative, at least make it believable.
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(05-19-2023, 10:39 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 10:08 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I agree - it is likely very uncommon for these guys to deceive in that manner.

Ironically - this is exactly the kind of behavior Baalke was accused of during the whole clown campaign.
We were told no one would do business with him and he was hated around the league. 
That was clearly a load of bull [BLEEP]

What about our inability to move up while others were doing so makes you think other GMs want to work with the guy? We moved down twice in the 1st round and only walked out with late round picks to do so while our other trade downs netted similar lackluster results. Based on what we just saw I think there's some merit to the idea that others don't care for him or want to do business with him.

I've called the inability to trade back up a failure and so has the man himself.

But his track record of other moves belie the notion he's somehow blacklisted from negotiation
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(05-19-2023, 11:32 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 11:19 AM)Mikey Wrote: Go back to the '21 darft. The Jest come calling, and want to slide up to 1, professing to you that Zach Wilson is their guy and they don't want to risk you trading the pick away to someone that covets him.

You know Lawrence is your guy, so the deal is basically free picks from whatever the Jest are offering to move up.

You taking that deal?

Did this actually happen or is it a hypothetical? 

If it’s a hypothetical, then you’re making the assumption that 1) The Jets GM would blatantly lie and 2) If he was willing to lie, would anyone believe they would take Wilson over Lawrence who was far and away the #1 pick? 

If you’re going to paint a picture of deception to fit your narrative, at least make it believable.

what's the difference, based on your premise that GMs don't lie to each other? So are you taking that deal or not? If you don't, why not?
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(05-22-2023, 07:47 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 11:32 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Did this actually happen or is it a hypothetical? 

If it’s a hypothetical, then you’re making the assumption that 1) The Jets GM would blatantly lie and 2) If he was willing to lie, would anyone believe they would take Wilson over Lawrence who was far and away the #1 pick? 

If you’re going to paint a picture of deception to fit your narrative, at least make it believable.

what's the difference, based on your premise that GMs don't lie to each other? So are you taking that deal or not? If you don't, why not?

Too risky. Wilson being touted and compared to Patrick Mahomes during the combine and pro days as far as creativity and arm talent went was laughable though. Chris Simms went out of his way to go against the grain with his QB rankings that year. Specifically with Wilson > Lawrence.

He still gets trashed without mercy online for that [BLEEP] box take. But, just too risky there. What if they made that deal with the Jets and then another team calls the Jets and offers a crazy, stupid Mike Ditka level trade deal to them to draft Lawrence?
[Image: 4SXW6gC.png]

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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(05-22-2023, 07:47 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(05-19-2023, 11:32 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Did this actually happen or is it a hypothetical? 

If it’s a hypothetical, then you’re making the assumption that 1) The Jets GM would blatantly lie and 2) If he was willing to lie, would anyone believe they would take Wilson over Lawrence who was far and away the #1 pick? 

If you’re going to paint a picture of deception to fit your narrative, at least make it believable.

what's the difference, based on your premise that GMs don't lie to each other? So are you taking that deal or not? If you don't, why not?

Well, after the stories about Ballkie's trading down requirements in this year's draft it would require LEGAL documents for him to do that.  Also I do believe each team's GM acts in the best interest of their team to the exclusion of other teams.  This one comes under the heading of a fool and his money is soon parted. Can apply to draft picks too.
A new broom always sweeps clean.
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https://youtu.be/BL8uYCfuPtE

Thought this was interesting.
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(05-24-2023, 10:53 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Thought this was interesting.

It is, indeed. 

(Marty posted it 5 days ago and that's what sparked the debate Mikey is laying out with a few dissenting posters currently) 

Nonetheless - at the risk of repeating myself a bit - I do think GMs will seek to deceive one another, but I'd wager they are very judicious about who they will outright lie to on a trade call. They must consider the relationship and its potential timeline/longevity -  and weigh out whether they are jeopardizing future deals.
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After further review...

I think this draft tells me one more thing.

The Salary Cap will be a concern beyond this year.

I'm not a cap obsessed guru like Ketchman, but the fact is, TL''s new contract will be coming forth soon.

To help accommodate his contract and the huge signing bonus it's bound to have, they will need to purge some high salaries from the roster in the next year or two. Best to start grooming cheap replacements now so they aren't trying to bring in a bunch of rookies down the road to do step in for purged players.

Perhaps I am underestimating Khan's wealth (never thought I'd ever type that sentence), but if the team will be building essentially a new stadium, with the Jaguars likely playing elsewhere for two seasons while that construction is being built, short term, I'm sure that's bound to have an impact on the team's operating budget. Revenue is likely to decrease for those seasons.

Purging the roster in anticipation/the aftermath of a new TL contract and new stadium construction and displacement is bound to have some short and intermediate term negative repercussions down the road, even for a guy with Khan's considerable wealth.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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(05-24-2023, 11:04 AM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(05-24-2023, 10:53 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Thought this was interesting.

It is, indeed. 

(Marty posted it 5 days ago and that's what sparked the debate Mikey is laying out with a few dissenting posters currently) 

Nonetheless - at the risk of repeating myself a bit - I do think GMs will seek to deceive one another, but I'd wager they are very judicious about who they will outright lie to on a trade call. They must consider the relationship and its potential timeline/longevity -  and weigh out whether they are jeopardizing future deals.

My bad. I missed it. I agree with you. Most of these guys are trying to do right by their organizations, but that's not going to happen if you get a reputation as a scumbag.
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(05-24-2023, 08:34 AM)Caldrac Wrote:
(05-22-2023, 07:47 AM)Mikey Wrote: what's the difference, based on your premise that GMs don't lie to each other? So are you taking that deal or not? If you don't, why not?

Too risky. Wilson being touted and compared to Patrick Mahomes during the combine and pro days as far as creativity and arm talent went was laughable though. Chris Simms went out of his way to go against the grain with his QB rankings that year. Specifically with Wilson > Lawrence.

He still gets trashed without mercy online for that [BLEEP] box take. But, just too risky there. What if they made that deal with the Jets and then another team calls the Jets and offers a crazy, stupid Mike Ditka level trade deal to them to draft Lawrence?

welcome to my point exactly! Promises cannot be the primary grounds used to make or exclude a deal. You can ask, but do not expect GMs to fully tip their hand to you.
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(05-25-2023, 07:51 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(05-24-2023, 08:34 AM)Caldrac Wrote: Too risky. Wilson being touted and compared to Patrick Mahomes during the combine and pro days as far as creativity and arm talent went was laughable though. Chris Simms went out of his way to go against the grain with his QB rankings that year. Specifically with Wilson > Lawrence.

He still gets trashed without mercy online for that [BLEEP] box take. But, just too risky there. What if they made that deal with the Jets and then another team calls the Jets and offers a crazy, stupid Mike Ditka level trade deal to them to draft Lawrence?

welcome to my point exactly! Promises cannot be the primary grounds used to make or exclude a deal. You can ask, but do not expect GMs to fully tip their hand to you.

Yep. Every GM on a phone call making a trade (potentially):

[Image: OGC.6f4759b306e2f0c11138e1624c8be767?pid...ZsMS5fo%3d]
[Image: 4SXW6gC.png]

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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Baalke got blocked
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(05-25-2023, 07:51 AM)Mikey Wrote:
(05-24-2023, 08:34 AM)Caldrac Wrote: Too risky. Wilson being touted and compared to Patrick Mahomes during the combine and pro days as far as creativity and arm talent went was laughable though. Chris Simms went out of his way to go against the grain with his QB rankings that year. Specifically with Wilson > Lawrence.

He still gets trashed without mercy online for that [BLEEP] box take. But, just too risky there. What if they made that deal with the Jets and then another team calls the Jets and offers a crazy, stupid Mike Ditka level trade deal to them to draft Lawrence?

welcome to my point exactly! Promises cannot be the primary grounds used to make or exclude a deal. You can ask, but do not expect GMs to fully tip their hand to you.

A GM may not want to reveal who they are trading up for and refuse to answer, but if they promised to take one player as a condition of a trade and outright lied and took a different player, then 31 teams would never trust that GM again which would make it very difficult to ever trade up again.  You are basically asking "Would a GM be willing to never trade up again in order to get one player?"  For a generational franchise quarterback?  Perhaps some might.  That's why you wouldn't chance it with Trevor Lawrence.  For a late first rounder and later?  I would say the odds of a GM outright lying in that situation range somewhere between "Highly Doubtful" and "Not a Chance".

All of this is a little besides the point.  Baalke didn't say "I want offense, do you promise to take defense?"  He asked them whether they wanted offense or defense.  The other team lying would have served no purpose because they didn't know which one Baalke wanted.  Lying had a 50% chance of hurting them, so why lie?  If the Giants had lied and said "offense", it would have been no deal and the Giants wouldn't have gotten the player they wanted.
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(This post was last modified: 05-26-2023, 12:41 PM by Caldrac.)

(05-26-2023, 12:38 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote:
(05-25-2023, 07:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: welcome to my point exactly! Promises cannot be the primary grounds used to make or exclude a deal. You can ask, but do not expect GMs to fully tip their hand to you.

A GM may not want to reveal who they are trading up for and refuse to answer, but if they promised to take one player as a condition of a trade and outright lied and took a different player, then 31 teams would never trust that GM again which would make it very difficult to ever trade up again.  You are basically asking "Would a GM be willing to never trade up again in order to get one player?"  For a generational franchise quarterback?  Perhaps some might.  That's why you wouldn't chance it with Trevor Lawrence.  For a late first rounder and later?  I would say the odds of a GM outright lying in that situation range somewhere between "Highly Doubtful" and "Not a Chance".

All of this is a little besides the point.  Baalke didn't say "I want offense, do you promise to take defense?"  He asked them whether they wanted offense or defense.  The other team lying would have served no purpose because they didn't know which one Baalke wanted.  Lying had a 50% chance of hurting them, so why lie?  If the Giants had lied and said "offense", it would have been no deal and the Giants wouldn't have gotten the player they wanted.

You're still gambling. If I trade down and hand over THE KEY to this entire draft, and, they promised me something? BUT.... they got another phone call and somebody made them a Godfather offer he couldn't refuse. A crazy, crazy, crazy draft haul that sets your team up for success potentially if you know how to draft over the next two years?

You look horrible as a GM on two counts.
[Image: 4SXW6gC.png]

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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(05-26-2023, 12:38 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote:
(05-25-2023, 07:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: welcome to my point exactly! Promises cannot be the primary grounds used to make or exclude a deal. You can ask, but do not expect GMs to fully tip their hand to you.

A GM may not want to reveal who they are trading up for and refuse to answer, but if they promised to take one player as a condition of a trade and outright lied and took a different player, then 31 teams would never trust that GM again which would make it very difficult to ever trade up again.  You are basically asking "Would a GM be willing to never trade up again in order to get one player?"  For a generational franchise quarterback?  Perhaps some might.  That's why you wouldn't chance it with Trevor Lawrence.  For a late first rounder and later?  I would say the odds of a GM outright lying in that situation range somewhere between "Highly Doubtful" and "Not a Chance".

All of this is a little besides the point.  Baalke didn't say "I want offense, do you promise to take defense?"  He asked them whether they wanted offense or defense.  The other team lying would have served no purpose because they didn't know which one Baalke wanted.  Lying had a 50% chance of hurting them, so why lie?  If the Giants had lied and said "offense", it would have been no deal and the Giants wouldn't have gotten the player they wanted.

never say never. You tick off one team, you may not be able to trade with that team while they nurse their wound, or you may have to pay a little more in the future to win back trust, but if you get the guy you want now, wouldn't you say a little cost down the road isn't worth it? That's like saying it was poor taste for us to jump the Vikes in 2003 when their trade took to long to get in - It might have been, but at the time we wanted a QB bad enough that we were willing to tarnish the rep a bit in the hopes that our franchise would be set at QB for years. Were we calling the brass out for that move when it went down?

I agree that lying would not be likely, but still plausible if the reward were great enough. Point was that as a GM and primary decision maker you darn sure better have done your homework enough to know pretty well who the GM on the other end of the line is looking to move for. Asking them to confirm is courtesy, but by no means would I expect them to be truthful 100% of the time. I know who I want. I have a good idea who they want. If they are not in direct conflict with each other, I entertain the offer to trade. If I have any doubt to their honesty, I stand pat and take my guy, plain and simple.
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