Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Why do I get the impression you are just cruising threads looking for a fight again?


I guess I can type it against for you since you didn't read it the first time?


"I am just pointing out that there are many reasons why, one being it's culturally more acceptable to get divorced."

Our culture accepts many self destructive things: divorce, welfare, unbridled immigration, liberals, mental illness celebrated as courage, etc.

Quote:Our culture accepts many self destructive things: divorce, welfare, unbridled immigration, liberals, mental illness celebrated as courage, etc.

 

I could add to this list, but I have a feeling I'd be banned for it, or at least receive a warning.

This is a weird one for me. 

 

On one hand, if the parents can pay for the childrens' food, then they should certainly pay for it. The responsibility, in my opinion, shouldn't be on the school to give out free food. 

 

On the other hand, I don't think these children should starve because a mother or father forgot to pack a lunch.

 

We can't simply say that the responsibility should be on schools to feed the children. I would, however, say that schools should have decent food available. Meh... I'm sure there's a lot more to it that we dont know

Quote:Our culture accepts many self destructive things: divorce, welfare, unbridled immigration, liberals, mental illness celebrated as courage, etc.

You left out your incredibly unintelligent opinions. Its socially acceptable on the right to have then. America is truly great in that regard.

Quote:1.  What is the purpose of the Department of Education?  What exactly do they do?  What have they ever accomplished?  We don't and shouldn't have a "uniform education administered by a centralized hierarchy".  As of 2011 the discretionary budget is $69.9 billion.  Here is the "mission" of the Department of Education.  To promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access.  If you ask me, this a total waste of taxpayer dollars.

 

2.  As I said before, get rid of the unions and perhaps those teachers can take home that $14 bucks per pay check.

 

I'd prefer collective bargaining and security than 14 bucks.  

 

Again, I find it fascinating that you, a military man who probably lives a pretty OK life because of centralized government and centralized planning is so adamant about getting rid of the departments he thinks are failing.

 

This is America.  So you might want to get used to a strong federal government.  You think the Dept. of Education is failing, then let's reform it.  Come up with solutions to tighten up the bureaucracy.  

 

You're trying to fight against the ocean regarding your wish to tear down the federal government.  It's not gonna happen, well, at least not unless we have civil war.  Something alot of conservative radio hosts (Beck & Savage) seem to be waiting and hoping for.

Quote: 

1. What percentage of the actual curriculum being taught at the local level is under the control of this dreamy federal centralized hierarchy you're talking about? 
   
2. How many teachers are there in this country.  Multiply that piddly $14 per teacher by all of them and it's a war chest that helps fund all sorts of political agendas, most of which I'm pretty sure you'd be giddy to support. 
   

One thing you got right in that last statement.  Your governor is trying to hold teachers accountable to a test which is ridiculous in its own right, but that's what happens when you cede control to a higher authority.  The last thing unions push for on any front is accountability.  It's all about political power and influence.

 

 

Well, just skimmed the Dept. of Ed's website...  Looks like they handle Higher Education grants, Loans, as well as administering the Bush created No Child Left Behind (which Obama is continuing). 

 

So there's alot they do.  There's alot they do well.  There are also alot that needs to be reformed.  Of that there is no doubt.  The No Child Left Behind thing is what started this ridiculous standardized testing thing.  And I agree that needs to be laid to rest.   

 

You'r critique of Unionization is expected.  You fail to mention how beneficial unions are in terms of collective bargaining and security of employees.  I think you'd be surprised to know how many republicans are actually in unions.  It's crazy, I know, because if you only pay attention to certain news outlets, you'd think all republicans are opposed to the same things the news outlet tells them to be.  But, believe it or not, when behind closed doors, some republicans still choose to do what's in thier best interests.  

 

With the employer I work for, there are 50% conservatives, 20% liberals and 30% who just want whats best (Independents).  But we're all unionized and we're all pretty happy about it.  Also, the Union I'm in doesn't push any political agenda.  But if you only watch certain news outlets, you'd think we're all commies that are organized to destroy the world--starting with America.

 

Believe it or not, things are alot more complex than what Beck, Savage, Limbaugh and the rest are telling you.

Quote:You left out your incredibly unintelligent opinions. Its socially acceptable on the right to have then. America is truly great in that regard.

My opinions are only unacceptable to people of the kind who think Hillary Clinton ought to be President. Im ok with that. Really.

Quote:That also illustrates the problem with unions.  The woman who was fired acknowledged and accepted that she knew what she did was wrong and against the rules.  Union people tend to think that they get "three strikes" or whatever if they break the rules.  I have never been fired or disciplined at a job personally, but there were times that I messed up, owned up to it, and expected to either be fired or reprimanded.  Fortunately for me, I've always had a good relationship with my employers and the worst I ever got was a "verbal reprimand".

 

I'll address the part that I bolded from your quote below.

 

 

That's a problem in today's society.  If it's not "children having children" it's irresponsible people procreating.  The "traditional" family is slowly disappearing.  Look at how many children that are born out of wedlock or belong to single parent homes.  It's more of a priority for "parents" to have their smart phones, their cigarettes and their beer rather than providing for their children.  The culture of "working hard" and "doing what it takes" is fading away.  Today we live in a "it's all about me" society.

I hear you. It only further makes the job in the classroom that much more difficult. Try getting a hold of some of these parents on the phone to set up a conference, talk about grades, behavior etc., and it is next to impossible. Never a returned phone call or email. There is little to no care among some at home. When that is the case, the teacher's job difficulty level is ramped up a ton.

 

I am a firm believer that the many issues facing our country today could be greatly benefitted by parents caring for their kids, and raising their kids in a two parent home. Being taught morals, right and wrong, etc.

Quote:I hear you. It only further makes the job in the classroom that much more difficult. Try getting a hold of some of these parents on the phone to set up a conference, talk about grades, behavior etc., and it is next to impossible. Never a returned phone call or email. There is little to no care among some at home. When that is the case, the teacher's job difficulty level is ramped up a ton.

 

I am a firm believer that the many issues facing our country today could be greatly benefitted by parents caring for their kids, and raising their kids in a two parent home. Being taught morals, right and wrong, etc.

 

The first part, I agree with.  But it's certainly not a symptom of single parent homes.


A lot of the parents my wife has had trouble contacting were still married.  While some of the single mother's she's tried to get a hold of were the ones most eager to work with her.  Of course that's not all of them.  There have been single parents who didn't get involved when she tried calling them.  Just as there were many married parents who were too busy with their jobs who didn't get involved.  Or who simply didn't care.


I don't think it has much to do with morals either.  It's our culture and how little we value intelligence and education.  People consider teachers 'overpaid babysitters'  (My wife wants to know who pays their babysitter less than $2.00/hour per kid).  Anytime teachers want a raise, they're vilified as trying to take more of the taxpayers money.  People say they just want 'accountability' which would mean 'higher pay and lower job security' in theory, but actually means lower pay and lower job security.  I know anytime the school board up here asks for more money, they never get what they need.   There'll always be cuts made.  On the other hand when the pentagon has no need for jets, they'll gladly spend billions on them.  (Source: Heritage foundation)


You don't know how many times my wife has been asked "Why does my kid need to learn this?"  As a teacher it's her least favorite question.  She's recently started by asking in return "Why don't they need to?"  (as politely as possible)


Parents are certainly part of the problem.  Of course some of the reforms are part of the problem too.  We don't get teachers input on the reforms.  Sometimes the unions fail them there.  (Though some unions have recently stood against Common Core, despite initially supporting it)  Take for example things like 'social promotion'.  Where they say it's worse to hold a child back than it is to send them on to the next grade without adequately knowing what they should.  They just send them on to the next grade so they won't feel ostracized.  (This makes teachers jobs much harder).  They don't so much think social promotion is good, as much as they think holding students back is bad.  Most teachers oppose social promotion, but of course no reason to listen to them.


You have two types of problem parents:


The Type that doesn't care.  Doesn't really matter if it's a single or double parent home.  It can be for a variety of reasons.  They don't have time to get involved because of their job.  Some just want to get their kids out of their house as fast as they possibly can.  Their eighteenth birthday comes, and their present is a one way ticket to whatever apartment they can afford.  They have no interest in their child's education.  They see parents as babysitters who take care of their kids for 180 days of the year.  I remember my wife telling me about a student who BEGGED her parents to let her stay at home while she finished high school.  She said it nearly broke her heart to see it.  


The type that thinks their child can do no wrong.  It used to be when a student was doing bad in school, the parents looked to their kids to see what they were doing wrong.  Now they look to the teacher instead.  To illustrate my point, here's a political cartoon:




The responsibility has shifted from kids to teachers.  Now some teachers aren't doing their jobs.  You'll find that in every profession.  They seem to be the only ones you ever hear about on the news, except for when there's a school shooting and you hear about how a teacher protected their students to the best of their ability.  (Much like with cops) You rarely hear about the good teachers in the news.  You only hear about the ones that slept with their students.  You don't hear about the ones that spend their own money on supplies, probably because the stories are extremely common.  They'd be reporting it every day.  Kids have a responsibility too.  As do parents to make sure that their kids are doing their work.  My parents made me do my homework.  It's certainly not something exclusive to two parent homes.  I have two friends who grew up with single mothers, and they both made their kids do their homework.  I remember my wife who had a student who's parents were divorced, and one of them was easy to work with while the other was difficult (The student had a lot of absences, but was otherwise a good student).  Some people wouldn't make good parents even if they had a partner.  


You also have parents who think they're right, and the teacher's wrong no matter what.   The ones who think their kids deserve A's for their work.  And a lot of time principal's will take the side of parents over their teachers when it goes that far (and sometimes it does go that far).  Of course it depends on the principal too.


Ultimately our culture has changed.  But I don't think it's the acceptance of single parent homes.  (Some of them aren't even single parents by choice) or anything like that.  It's the devaluing of education by so many parents.  And even some kids.  I mean being top of the class tends to get you picked on in school.  it's something that should be revered.  


Just look at higher education.


You can throw a basketball through a hoop?  We'll pay for your education!  Full ride.  (At least as long as you can still play, and you'll have to take some junk courses so we don't have to actually educate you.  But if you can throw a basketball through a hoop?  You'll make us a lot of money!  Err... I mean, we'll make you a lot of money.  Yeah.  That's what I meant."


You're really smart?  Well, you might qualify for some assistance.  Take out some loans, and then pay our high tuition rates.  Too bad you can't use a real skill like basketball.  


I'm not saying that it's bad that basketball players get scholarships (or football players, or the such).  It's perfectly fine.  But we should be valuing just as much the ones who are smart.  And those basketball players should be getting real educations, not taking junk courses or having someone else do their work for them. 

Quote:The first part, I agree with.  But it's certainly not a symptom of single parent homes.


A lot of the parents my wife has had trouble contacting were still married.  While some of the single mother's she's tried to get a hold of were the ones most eager to work with her.  Of course that's not all of them.  There have been single parents who didn't get involved when she tried calling them.  Just as there were many married parents who were too busy with their jobs who didn't get involved.  Or who simply didn't care.


I don't think it has much to do with morals either.  It's our culture and how little we value intelligence and education.  People consider teachers 'overpaid babysitters'  (My wife wants to know who pays their babysitter less than $2.00/hour per kid).  Anytime teachers want a raise, they're vilified as trying to take more of the taxpayers money.  People say they just want 'accountability' which would mean 'higher pay and lower job security' in theory, but actually means lower pay and lower job security.  I know anytime the school board up here asks for more money, they never get what they need.   There'll always be cuts made.  On the other hand when the pentagon has no need for jets, they'll gladly spend billions on them.  (Source: Heritage foundation)


You don't know how many times my wife has been asked "Why does my kid need to learn this?"  As a teacher it's her least favorite question.  She's recently started by asking in return "Why don't they need to?"  (as politely as possible)


Parents are certainly part of the problem.  Of course some of the reforms are part of the problem too.  We don't get teachers input on the reforms.  Sometimes the unions fail them there.  (Though some unions have recently stood against Common Core, despite initially supporting it)  Take for example things like 'social promotion'.  Where they say it's worse to hold a child back than it is to send them on to the next grade without adequately knowing what they should.  They just send them on to the next grade so they won't feel ostracized.  (This makes teachers jobs much harder).  They don't so much think social promotion is good, as much as they think holding students back is bad.  Most teachers oppose social promotion, but of course no reason to listen to them.


You have two types of problem parents:


The Type that doesn't care.  Doesn't really matter if it's a single or double parent home.  It can be for a variety of reasons.  They don't have time to get involved because of their job.  Some just want to get their kids out of their house as fast as they possibly can.  Their eighteenth birthday comes, and their present is a one way ticket to whatever apartment they can afford.  They have no interest in their child's education.  They see parents as babysitters who take care of their kids for 180 days of the year.  I remember my wife telling me about a student who BEGGED her parents to let her stay at home while she finished high school.  She said it nearly broke her heart to see it.  


The type that thinks their child can do no wrong.  It used to be when a student was doing bad in school, the parents looked to their kids to see what they were doing wrong.  Now they look to the teacher instead.  To illustrate my point, here's a political cartoon:




The responsibility has shifted from kids to teachers.  Now some teachers aren't doing their jobs.  You'll find that in every profession.  They seem to be the only ones you ever hear about on the news, except for when there's a school shooting and you hear about how a teacher protected their students to the best of their ability.  (Much like with cops) You rarely hear about the good teachers in the news.  You only hear about the ones that slept with their students.  You don't hear about the ones that spend their own money on supplies, probably because the stories are extremely common.  They'd be reporting it every day.  Kids have a responsibility too.  As do parents to make sure that their kids are doing their work.  My parents made me do my homework.  It's certainly not something exclusive to two parent homes.  I have two friends who grew up with single mothers, and they both made their kids do their homework.  I remember my wife who had a student who's parents were divorced, and one of them was easy to work with while the other was difficult (The student had a lot of absences, but was otherwise a good student).  Some people wouldn't make good parents even if they had a partner.  


You also have parents who think they're right, and the teacher's wrong no matter what.   The ones who think their kids deserve A's for their work.  And a lot of time principal's will take the side of parents over their teachers when it goes that far (and sometimes it does go that far).  Of course it depends on the principal too.


Ultimately our culture has changed.  But I don't think it's the acceptance of single parent homes.  (Some of them aren't even single parents by choice) or anything like that.  It's the devaluing of education by so many parents.  And even some kids.  I mean being top of the class tends to get you picked on in school.  it's something that should be revered.  


Just look at higher education.


You can throw a basketball through a hoop?  We'll pay for your education!  Full ride.  (At least as long as you can still play, and you'll have to take some junk courses so we don't have to actually educate you.  But if you can throw a basketball through a hoop?  You'll make us a lot of money!  Err... I mean, we'll make you a lot of money.  Yeah.  That's what I meant."


You're really smart?  Well, you might qualify for some assistance.  Take out some loans, and then pay our high tuition rates.  Too bad you can't use a real skill like basketball.  


I'm not saying that it's bad that basketball players get scholarships (or football players, or the such).  It's perfectly fine.  But we should be valuing just as much the ones who are smart.  And those basketball players should be getting real educations, not taking junk courses or having someone else do their work for them. 

Great post. Hit a lot of the main issues facing the classroom. And yes, there are some good single parent homes who care about their child's education, as well as two parent homes where there isn't much regard at all.

Just for an example of one of those parents (and why job security is so important)


My wife had a student last year produce a report denying the holocaust.  It provided no evidence, it debunked nothing, and basically the entire paper was parroting other holocaust deniers (with deniers as the only sources).  It didn't meet the requirements she had, and produced little more than the words of others, so she gave the student a failing grade.   The father of the kid came in demanding to know why his kid got an F, and said that it was because of his political leanings.  Eventually he took it all the way to the Principal.  The principal of course took the father's side, and my wife was flabbergasted.  She explained that the student didn't meet her requirements and failed to produce evidence toward his conclusion, and therefore got an F on the paper.  Now, thankfully she has tenure.  She said if it had been her first, second, or third year there she'd have probably given in and given the student whatever grade she could get away with.  The head of her department (who was also her mentor, and my 9th grade teacher back in high school) also stood up for her, and said she'd have given the paper an F too.  Thanks to that, the Principal said that the F stood. Imagine if neither of them felt comfortable standing up to the administration, and just cowed to parents anytime they wanted a better grade for their child.   Parents shouldn't determine the grades.  Teachers should.

Quote:That $14 they're forking out in union fees could be better spent buying supplies or other things for their students because any public school teacher I know is spending their personal money on such things because some parents just don't care.

 

My sister in law has opted not to be a member of the Duval Teacher's Union here.  They at least have a choice in Duval.

So, IF she does have a problem/grievance..Im sure she wont go to a Union rep? But I bet she would, since in a right to work state the Union has to, by law, represent everyone, even those to milk the teat of the dues paying members. 

Yep..the Choice...why pay dues when I still get all the benefits of the CBA, get representation if I need it, and not have to pay. 

Thankfully taxes are mandatory

Quote:So, IF she does have a problem/grievance..Im sure she wont go to a Union rep? But I bet she would, since in a right to work state the Union has to, by law, represent everyone, even those to milk the teat of the dues paying members. 

Yep..the Choice...why pay dues when I still get all the benefits of the CBA, get representation if I need it, and not have to pay. 

Thankfully taxes are mandatory

That's what you came away with? 

 

Unions are part of the reason public education is the joke that it has become in this country.  You keep on cheering for that all you want.

Quote:The first part, I agree with.  But it's certainly not a symptom of single parent homes.


A lot of the parents my wife has had trouble contacting were still married.  While some of the single mother's she's tried to get a hold of were the ones most eager to work with her.  Of course that's not all of them.  There have been single parents who didn't get involved when she tried calling them.  Just as there were many married parents who were too busy with their jobs who didn't get involved.  Or who simply didn't care.


I don't think it has much to do with morals either.  It's our culture and how little we value intelligence and education.  People consider teachers 'overpaid babysitters'  (My wife wants to know who pays their babysitter less than $2.00/hour per kid).  Anytime teachers want a raise, they're vilified as trying to take more of the taxpayers money.  People say they just want 'accountability' which would mean 'higher pay and lower job security' in theory, but actually means lower pay and lower job security.  I know anytime the school board up here asks for more money, they never get what they need.   There'll always be cuts made.  On the other hand when the pentagon has no need for jets, they'll gladly spend billions on them.  (Source: Heritage foundation)


You don't know how many times my wife has been asked "Why does my kid need to learn this?"  As a teacher it's her least favorite question.  She's recently started by asking in return "Why don't they need to?"  (as politely as possible)


Parents are certainly part of the problem.  Of course some of the reforms are part of the problem too.  We don't get teachers input on the reforms.  Sometimes the unions fail them there.  (Though some unions have recently stood against Common Core, despite initially supporting it)  Take for example things like 'social promotion'.  Where they say it's worse to hold a child back than it is to send them on to the next grade without adequately knowing what they should.  They just send them on to the next grade so they won't feel ostracized.  (This makes teachers jobs much harder).  They don't so much think social promotion is good, as much as they think holding students back is bad.  Most teachers oppose social promotion, but of course no reason to listen to them.


You have two types of problem parents:


The Type that doesn't care.  Doesn't really matter if it's a single or double parent home.  It can be for a variety of reasons.  They don't have time to get involved because of their job.  Some just want to get their kids out of their house as fast as they possibly can.  Their eighteenth birthday comes, and their present is a one way ticket to whatever apartment they can afford.  They have no interest in their child's education.  They see parents as babysitters who take care of their kids for 180 days of the year.  I remember my wife telling me about a student who BEGGED her parents to let her stay at home while she finished high school.  She said it nearly broke her heart to see it.  


The type that thinks their child can do no wrong.  It used to be when a student was doing bad in school, the parents looked to their kids to see what they were doing wrong.  Now they look to the teacher instead.  To illustrate my point, here's a political cartoon:




The responsibility has shifted from kids to teachers.  Now some teachers aren't doing their jobs.  You'll find that in every profession.  They seem to be the only ones you ever hear about on the news, except for when there's a school shooting and you hear about how a teacher protected their students to the best of their ability.  (Much like with cops) You rarely hear about the good teachers in the news.  You only hear about the ones that slept with their students.  You don't hear about the ones that spend their own money on supplies, probably because the stories are extremely common.  They'd be reporting it every day.  Kids have a responsibility too.  As do parents to make sure that their kids are doing their work.  My parents made me do my homework.  It's certainly not something exclusive to two parent homes.  I have two friends who grew up with single mothers, and they both made their kids do their homework.  I remember my wife who had a student who's parents were divorced, and one of them was easy to work with while the other was difficult (The student had a lot of absences, but was otherwise a good student).  Some people wouldn't make good parents even if they had a partner.  


You also have parents who think they're right, and the teacher's wrong no matter what.   The ones who think their kids deserve A's for their work.  And a lot of time principal's will take the side of parents over their teachers when it goes that far (and sometimes it does go that far).  Of course it depends on the principal too.


Ultimately our culture has changed.  But I don't think it's the acceptance of single parent homes.  (Some of them aren't even single parents by choice) or anything like that.  It's the devaluing of education by so many parents.  And even some kids.  I mean being top of the class tends to get you picked on in school.  it's something that should be revered.  


Just look at higher education.


You can throw a basketball through a hoop?  We'll pay for your education!  Full ride.  (At least as long as you can still play, and you'll have to take some junk courses so we don't have to actually educate you.  But if you can throw a basketball through a hoop?  You'll make us a lot of money!  Err... I mean, we'll make you a lot of money.  Yeah.  That's what I meant."


You're really smart?  Well, you might qualify for some assistance.  Take out some loans, and then pay our high tuition rates.  Too bad you can't use a real skill like basketball.  


I'm not saying that it's bad that basketball players get scholarships (or football players, or the such).  It's perfectly fine.  But we should be valuing just as much the ones who are smart.  And those basketball players should be getting real educations, not taking junk courses or having someone else do their work for them. 

 

I understand and respect your passion on this issue.  You do bring up some fine points, but some I must disagree with.

 

First, most single parent homes are not involved as much in their children's education/lives.  There is the exception on occasion, and I commend them.

 

I do agree and believe that a lot of two parent homes have "parents" that for whatever reason are not involved in their children's education/lives.  I would bet that the number is probably significantly lower than that of single parent homes, though I have no data to back up that theory.

 

I do believe that it is all about morals.  The majority of single parent homes (though not all) are the product of a promiscuous lifestyle.  I would also bet that many children that come from a two parent household where the parents don't get involved in their education are also never exposed to religion or any form of discipline that promotes responsibility.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people should be religious or should belong to a certain religion, but the teachings from these institutions tends to be positive.

 

I'm also willing to bet that more children are born due to "mistakes" rather than being planned.

 

When it comes to teachers, I think that there are two types.  The first, and in my mind probably the majority, really care about what they do.  They are hard working and yes, I would say under paid for what they do.  The other type is a typical liberal that thinks that they are owed something.  Rather than educate students they "indoctrinate" or "teach" them about liberal principles.  History is distorted, and real civics is pretty much ignored.  I see the latter example more and more every day with some of the news and blog stories that come out.  To deny that it exists is wrong.  Again, I'm not saying that it's all teachers and all schools, but it does exist.

 

I do agree with you about devaluing education by some.  There is a reason why back in our history it was forbidden to teach slaves how to read.  Knowledge is power.  However, by the same token gaining knowledge should lead to something.  What use is a college educated student with a degree in Liberal Arts for example?

 

The bottom line is, it points back to homes, families and tradition.

Quote:That's what you came away with?


Unions are part of the reason public education is the joke that it has become in this country. You keep on cheering for that all you want.

Yes. That what I came away with . You disagree with my opinion on your sister in law, but tell me she still wont accept the benefits the CBA gives her. Now she doesnt even chip in but gets it gratis. Probably gets in line for the free lunch program as well.

The Union causing public education to be a joke is a joke in itself. Just like Unions have caused the demise of industry in this country.

From the lack of parental involvement, teachers pay incumbent upon student test scores, being told what to teach... But of course you know that. Your sister in law is a teacher.

You keep pounding the excuses home all you want.

Quote:So, IF she does have a problem/grievance..Im sure she wont go to a Union rep? But I bet she would, since in a right to work state the Union has to, by law, represent everyone, even those to milk the teat of the dues paying members.

Yep..the Choice...why pay dues when I still get all the benefits of the CBA, get representation if I need it, and not have to pay.

Thankfully taxes are mandatory

I'd bet the guy that is thankful for mandatory taxes doesn't pay much in taxes.


Talk about living off the teat this guys thankful for mandatory taxes lol.

Quote:Yes. That what I came away with . You disagree with my opinion on your sister in law, but tell me she still wont accept the benefits the CBA gives her. Now she doesnt even chip in but gets it gratis. Probably gets in line for the free lunch program as well.

The Union causing public education to be a joke is a joke in itself. Just like Unions have caused the demise of industry in this country.

From the lack of parental involvement, teachers pay incumbent upon student test scores, being told what to teach... But of course you know that. Your sister in law is a teacher.

You keep pounding the excuses home all you want.

Yes unions and what they became are big reason why manufacturing has left the country. To deny that is to ignore economic reality.

Quote:Yes unions and what they became are big reason why manufacturing has left the country. To deny that is to ignore economic reality.

To believe its a big reason is ignoring the real reasons and playing the blame game? Do you realize the percentage of public unions? They are so minimal that to say they are a big reason that it caused businesses to leave the country is IMO asinine.

Quote:Yes unions and what they became are big reason why manufacturing has left the country. To deny that is to ignore economic reality.

Eric, blaming unions for management's wish to pay pennies per hour for labor just doesn't make any sense to me...

Quote:Eric, blaming unions for management's wish to pay pennies per hour for labor just doesn't make any sense to me...

No one would work for pennies an hour, there's plenty of evidence that wages do not deflate with the absence of unions.


Union workers do however drive up cost with fringe benefits beyond the normal wage. Again when you inject third parties the balance between supply and demand is altered. There was a point and time that workers had to organize to deal with wages, in that day there was only one plant to work in and most employers held workers hostage knowing they couldn't find work anywhere else. That's not even close to today's situation, now unions demand double sometimes triple the wage regular workers make, double the fringe benefits and half the work load. Of course companies will seek cheaper production cost that's natural but now it's to the point it's cheaper to move a company over seas then deal with union demands.


Just like at the auto manufacturing industry they still build plants in the United States they just avoid union states.