Quote:This was something I thought about back when Gregory (who I really wasn't that high on) was the #1 mocked guy to us. Just look at how the team has managed to get production out of Branch, Davis, and even Chris Smith in his limited time last year. That said, we have no need at QB and there's not a T worth the pick.
And while we can make a case for WR, even that is not that big of a need given what we invested on it last season.
So that leaves DE...
just because we invested 2 2nd rounders last year doesn't mean the WR position is solved by any means.
Lee was very inconsistent, and has an injury history.
Robinson was much more consistent but was more of a possession receiver. He also is coming off foot surgery.
Then we have Allen Hurns who far outproduced his rookie free agent status, but is also inconsistent.
That, to me, doesn't instill a lot of confidence. Just because they are entering year #2 doesn't necessarily mean they will get better.
Remember Cyprien and Gratz heading into year 2? Most people assumed they will just get better with another off-season to work on things, but they didn't - in fact, you could argue they regressed in a lot of ways.
IF Caldwell has Cooper rated as a legit top 10 talent, and there are more question marks about other players like Fowler, Beasley, Ray, etc - then I think it's very possible, and maybe even likely, that Cooper will be our pick.
Quote:People were questioning Fowler's based on his measurables. All I'm saying is, based on measurables, Fowler's is good enough. It's not eye popping like Beasley, but it's good enough.
That sounds reasonable. Those measurements don't always translate to the field.
Like we all know. There are plenty of workout warriors.
Once players put the pads on and perform is a different story. Timed drills don't translate to the field.
Fowler is a guy that plays a lot better than his numbers say.
Beasley is a guy who doesn't play up to his numbers.
I'm always gonna favor the guy who shows more on the field than in a weight room.
Quote:just because we invested 2 2nd rounders last year doesn't mean the WR position is solved by any means.
Lee was very inconsistent, and has an injury history.
Robinson was much more consistent but was more of a possession receiver. He also is coming off foot surgery.
Then we have Allen Hurns who far outproduced his rookie free agent status, but is also inconsistent.
That, to me, doesn't instill a lot of confidence. Just because they are entering year #2 doesn't necessarily mean they will get better.
Remember Cyprien and Gratz heading into year 2? Most people assumed they will just get better with another off-season to work on things, but they didn't - in fact, you could argue they regressed in a lot of ways.
IF Caldwell has Cooper rated as a legit top 10 talent, and there are more question marks about other players like Fowler, Beasley, Ray, etc - then I think it's very possible, and maybe even likely, that Cooper will be our pick.
I've been on the record as saying the same thing. But WR is also the deepest position in this draft, even more than RB. I'm not going to riot if Dave decides to take Cooper or White at 3. I see the reasoning, as I think Robinson's potential is a chain-mover #2 and Lee is best suited as a deep threat/slot WR. I don't think we have that #1 WR in our roster yet.
But Clemons is getting old, and this is probably our best chance to get a guy to replace him. We have nobody to replace him, and pretty sure we hope we're not taking top 5 against next draft.
Basically, this is likely our best chance to take the best pass rusher in this draft (whoever that is Dave believes to be). Whereas with WR, we already have "hope" in that position in Lee and Robinson. We don't have that at LEO. Even if Lee/Robinson doesn't emerge to be #1 WRs, we'll likely be in the mid-round pick next draft where we can take the 2nd or 3rd best WR in that draft.
Likely wouldn't be the case for pass rusher.
Quote:Fowler is a guy that plays a lot better than his numbers say.
Beasley is a guy who doesn't play up to his numbers.
lolwut?
Beasley doesn't play up to his numbers exactly how? He is always the fastest guy after the snap. He has shown explosive athleticism on tape and has 33 career sacks. His play definitely matches up to what he did at the combine.
If anything, Beasley showed that he can remain explosive and fast while adding some weight to his frame. That's what he showed at the combine.
I'm not even sure if I should take your comment about Beasley seriously.
If you want to argue that he may not be a full-time defensive end or a run stopper, that's fine.... but his combine matched up pretty much perfectly to his tape. An explosive athlete that turns athleticism into pass rush production.
Quote:That sounds reasonable. Those measurements don't always translate to the field.
Like we all know. There are plenty of workout warriors.
Once players put the pads on and perform is a different story. Timed drills don't translate to the field.
Fowler is a guy that plays a lot better than his numbers say.
Beasley is a guy who doesn't play up to his numbers.
I'm always gonna favor the guy who shows more on the field than in a weight room.
Which is why my comment on Fowler was "good enough is good enough" if he has the instincts and work ethic. Fowler has it, so to me, that he has the requisite athleticism at the age of 20 is good enough when you factor in the instinct, the motor, tenacity, and versatility I saw in him.
As far as Beasley not measuring up to the numbers, I disagree. There's only one number that doesn't show...and that's his bench (and I guess his increased weight). Otherwise, his athleticism, his bend, his get off...all of those I saw when I watched him play. But as I've said here many times, the LEO, while its the glorified pass rusher in our defense, it does need to hold up against the run too. That's my biggest concern with Beasley.
I go back and forth between these two for this reason.
Quote:Which is why my comment on Fowler was "good enough is good enough" if he has the instincts and work ethic. Fowler has it, so to me, that he has the requisite athleticism at the age of 20 is good enough when you factor in the instinct, the motor, tenacity, and versatility I saw in him.
As far as Beasley not measuring up to the numbers, I disagree. There's only one number that doesn't show...and that's his bench (and I guess his increased weight). Otherwise, his athleticism, his bend, his get off...all of those I saw when I watched him play. But as I've said here many times, the LEO, while its the glorified pass rusher in our defense, it does need to hold up against the run too. That's my biggest concern with Beasley.
I go back and forth between these two for this reason.
The reason I prefer Beasley is that he has something that we just don't have on our roster. Explosive pass-rushing. Even if he's just a situational pass rusher (like Ryan Davis or Branch were), he could get 10+ sacks even in his rookie year IMO. Then you give him a year to develop into an adequate run stopper. If he's 6'3" and 250-255 (in a year) that will be almost the same size as Clemons, with significantly more explosion and speed. THAT would be the perfect LEO. Whereas Fowler, IMO may develop into Clemons from 3 years ago and that could be his ceiling, simply because athletically I think he will be limited. Beasley could get a bunch of sacks in his career simply by being faster than anyone out there, the same can not be said about Fowler.
Dante Fowler just hasn't shown me enough in terms of pass rushing to warrant this high of a selection. Yes, he plays with passion and has a great motor. He can be pretty good at a lot of things. But nothing about him is "rare" or special, IMO.
If you look at Ryan Davis on this team, you see the same size as Fowler, similar athletic ability, and they will probably be used similarly as well. Davis is already a nice pass-rusher for this team, so what would Fowler reasonably add? Yes, I know Fowler is younger and has a higher ceiling, but it's just something to think about.
That's just how I see it. It may turn out completely differently, and there may be a good reason why Fowler is almost always ranked ahead of Beasley as the "edge" by most draft sites I see.
Quote:lolwut?
Beasley doesn't play up to his numbers exactly how? He is always the fastest guy after the snap. He has shown explosive athleticism on tape and has 33 career sacks. His play definitely matches up to what he did at the combine.
If anything, Beasley showed that he can remain explosive and fast while adding some weight to his frame. That's what he showed at the combine.
I'm not even sure if I should take your comment about Beasley seriously.
If you want to argue that he may not be a full-time defensive end or a run stopper, that's fine.... but his combine matched up pretty much perfectly to his tape. An explosive athlete that turns athleticism into pass rush production.
strength-wise, KY keeps talking about the bench press.... but beasley gets stonewalled by TEs and OL alike, often. difficulty shedding blocks, whereas fowler doesnt have that happen as often.
Quote:Why talk in the past tense? I'm projecting his future as a LEO, and that's a position better suited for Ray's explosiveness off the line.
Simply put... 12 sacks tells me the guy can get to the QB. This goes for Ray and Beasley. Moreover, if you just watch these guys on tape you'll see how quick they can hit home, and that's especially true of Ray. Ray has this ability to get to the QB while most of the players are just getting out of their stance.
and this is another thing, the defense of beasley is his numbers and his explosive step, but when you talk about shane ray in the same context, then all the sudden no one wants him.
shane ray was doing it against better players... but whatever.
Williams or Cooper please.
Fowler will be a steady player for 8 years. Could play Leo/DE or 3-4 LB. (Remember Bradley may not be here)
Beasley could be the next Derrick Thomas or never learn any other move than from outside and windup out of the league in 4 years
L. Williams will be a stud in the NFL and will play for 8-10 years. Is he the best though? He is very slow off the line of scrimmage and gets washed off the line repeatedly.I think he will take a couple of years to season. Maybe take over for Marks.Do we need this type of player now? NO!
Cooper will always be a steady 60-80 catches 800-1200 yards receiver. Maybe all Pro. Play in the league for 8 to 10 years
Do we really need a speed rusher this year? We were 6th in the NFL in sacks!!! Next year we will most likely cut Clemons and Davis and Branch will be hitting FA. We will need one for sure in 2016. Maybe get one while you can now?
This year is a tough call and one I would not want to make
Quote:Fowler will be a steady player for 8 years. Could play Leo/DE or 3-4 LB. (Remember Bradley may not be here)
Beasley could be the next Derrick Thomas or never learn any other move than from outside and windup out of the league in 4 years
L. Williams will be a stud in the NFL and will play for 8-10 years. Is he the best though? He is very slow off the line of scrimmage and gets washed off the line repeatedly.I think he will take a couple of years to season. Maybe take over for Marks.Do we need this type of player now? NO!
Cooper will always be a steady 60-80 catches 800-1200 yards receiver. Maybe all Pro. Play in the league for 8 to 10 years
Do we really need a speed rusher this year? We were 6th in the NFL in sacks!!! Next year we will most likely cut Clemons and Davis and Branch will be hitting FA. We will need one for sure in 2016. Maybe get one while you can now?
This year is a tough call and one I would not want to make
im pretty sure he was actually recorded at some point as having the fastest get off on the line or something like that.
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About that Leonard Williams...
https://twitter.com/Gil_InUrCorner/statu...8092756993
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<div>Gil Marin<span style="color:rgb(177,187,195);">@Gil_InUrCorner</span>
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<p style="font-size:28px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(41,47,51);">Our @LWtrojan94 "Big Cat" has the quickest reaction time recorded this yr. Draft Combine: Leonard Williams https://youtu.be/-IZwkZpR86s #FightOn
<p style="font-size:28px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(41,47,51);">
<p style="font-size:28px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(41,47,51);">http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/playe...d-williams
<p style="font-size:28px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(41,47,51);">
<p style="font-size:28px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(41,47,51);">Williams is earning comparisons from scouts to everyone from McCoy to Houston Texans defensive end J.J. Watt for his ability to dominate the line of scrimmage while alternating between defensive tackle and defensive end.
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quickest reaction time i guess.
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I think Beasley looks much quicker on tape.
In fact, most everyone I've read says the same thing: Beasley has the best 1st step in the draft class.
I don't want anything to do with Shane Ray. Do not want him drafted here.
Quote:Beasley had a far better combine than Ray making him the safer pick, but on tape Ray just looks quicker. Both players are the same exact size and put up the same sack count. Yeah I'll take Beasley before Ray, but if Beasley is gone when I'm picking... and Fowler too... then I'm taking Ray.
What astonishes me even more are all those here willing to take that pot head Gregory as a LEO over Ray. Now I do agree that Gregory fits the position as well since he's rather smallish too, but if you watch both of them on tape I don't know how someone concludes that Gregory is the superior pass rusher. I can see it reading some of the draftnik reports, but I just really don't see that on tape.
id gamble on gregory late rd 1/early 2, but if its anything above say like pick 18, then id rather someone else with less red flags.
beasley lacks the ability to shed blocks. ive seen ray shed blocks left and right, split defenders, to me ray would be a better pick with the caveat to that being that you can probably get ray a few picks later than where beasley will go and i think ray will turn out to be the better player(as long as he is used correctly)
Quote:It's a tough one for me between Beasley and Ray. Beasley's 35 reps stands out to me tough, and it would seem
you can project him at more positions. Ray in my book is a LEO, strictly a LEO, and nothing but a LEO.
id agree with the black font portion. the reps dont mean much to me at all though.