Quote:You're giving Henne far too much credit here. There's surely an even lower tier for him.
You can stratify the losers any way you like, but really when you're talking about them you're talking about the same thing whether it's by suffering through Henne or any other guy that will never be franchise level, it takes an extraordinary team to make up for them, and it's not likely to happen. None of that is to be construed as positive for Henne, I use him as the label to make it clear that if you have a QB in that group you're probably suffering some bad offense.
Franchise qbs don't grow on trees.
Quote:Doesn't really matter.
There are elite QBs, they will dominate all QBs below them when the team's surrounding them are equal, they will have epic games when they face off against each other. Right now there's Tom Brady, there's Aaron Rodgers, arguably Brees, too, and it's really hard to make an argument for anyone else to be in this tier.
Below that are the franchise non-elite passers, they lose to the elites if the teams surrounding them are the same, but beat the "prospective franchise" QBs and "Henne level" guys when all else is equal.
Below them are the "prospective franchise" level guys. That's where I put the guys like Jameis Winston, Mariota, and Bortles. They've shown they have abilities, but they haven't shown they can consistently do it yet. All things being equal they usually win against the teams led by Henne level guys and usually lose against the franchise level guys, and usually get their butts kicked by the elites.
Then there are the Henne level guys, they're bottom of the league starters and backups. If your team is starting one of these guys your team probably can't get past 8-8 or 9-7 no matter how good it is, because there just aren't enough bad teams usually to allow for your team to win that many games. Brock Osweiler is an example of this level of QB. The texans got confused by how much winning the Broncos did with him at QB and assumed he must have something since it's so hard for a team to win with a garbage level QB.
You can argue about guys being in the second or third tier if you like, but the way I see it those are the actual tiers of NFL QB.
In 2 years of play, Jameis Winston and Marcus Marriotta have both led their teams to winning records, playoffs picture, and overall competent levels of play. Blake Bortles needs to get close to a winning record/regular NFL team status before you lump him with these guys.
Quote:In 2 years of play, Jameis Winston and Marcus Marriotta have both led their teams to winning records, playoffs picture, and overall competent levels of play. Blake Bortles needs to get close to a winning record/regular NFL team status before you lump him with these guys.
Agree.
Bortles is not on the same level as MM and Winston.
Bortles is more on the level of RG3, Kaepernick, and Josh McCown
Quote:Agree.
Bortles is not on the same level as MR and Winston.
Bortles is more on the level of RG3, Kaepernick, and Josh McCown
I don't think that's fair. I also don't think you have to base Bortles on the overall package that he represents, and not just the qb with the tired, hurt arm from last year. I'll give you that Winston and Mariota have already reached an even higher tier, but Bortles is above the likes or RG3, etc. ...at least one good tier higher... until he shows he can be Mr. 2015 consistently. Other guys in his tier might include Andy Dalton, Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, Eli Manning (the current version) and Kirk Cousins.
Quote:In 2 years of play, Jameis Winston and Marcus Marriotta have both led their teams to winning records, playoffs picture, and overall competent levels of play. Blake Bortles needs to get close to a winning record/regular NFL team status before you lump him with these guys.
I love you BritJag but this is why I disagree with your assessment on Blake not being on the same tier as Jameis and Mariota. In the case of Mariota and Jameis not only they had equal or better talent around but a better structure as well. In the case of Mariota he is not asked to win games for them and that identity is to run the ball and play great defense. In the case of Jameis they run the ball is well and his defense is significantly better than any defense that Blake had to play with within the last 3 years. In addition, Jameis has a coaching staff including the defensive coordinator and head coach who was essential to our last great winning season. Blake was asked to win games for this Team without a running game, a smoke-and-mirrors defense, and a coaching staff who has gotten their coaching acumen from coaching for dummies handbook. This year is the first time in his career that he's on the same playing field as far as personnel and coaching staff with the other young quarterbacks within the last 5 years so I promise there's no more excuses from Blake at this point. It is important to put everything into perspective especially when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks.
Jameis looks to be another phenom like Derek Carr.
Mariota has me scratching my head a bit. I had him easily in the bottom tier after his rookie season, but last year just prior to his injury he was out playing Andrew Luck. So, I don't really know what to think, but if he comes out playing like he did just before getting hurt, the Titans have a Playoff caliber offense.
Both players in my book right now are in a rather high tier.
Quote:In 2 years of play, Jameis Winston and Marcus Marriotta have both led their teams to winning records, playoffs picture, and overall competent levels of play. Blake Bortles needs to get close to a winning record/regular NFL team status before you lump him with these guys.
Talking about wins shows that you're not rationally appraising anyone. Bortles' second season was far and away better than Winston's second season, and I've never been sold on mariota, pencil legs still got snapped behind one of the league's best offensive lines. The Jaguars showed the blueprint for beating them in week 16 of last year, I expect they'll fall back some in 2017 as they'll get to face a #2 schedule instead of a #4 schedule.
Quote:I love you BritJag but this is why I disagree with your assessment on Blake not being on the same tier as Jameis and Mariota. In the case of Mariota and Jameis not only they had equal or better talent around but a better structure as well. In the case of Mariota he is not asked to win games for them and that identity is to run the ball and play great defense. In the case of Jameis they run the ball is well and his defense is significantly better than any defense that Blake had to play with within the last 3 years. In addition, Jameis has a coaching staff including the defensive coordinator and head coach who was essential to our last great winning season. Blake was asked to win games for this Team without a running game, a smoke-and-mirrors defense, and a coaching staff who has gotten their coaching acumen from coaching for dummies handbook. This year is the first time in his career that he's on the same playing field as far as personnel and coaching staff with the other young quarterbacks within the last 5 years so I promise there's no more excuses from Blake at this point. It is important to put everything into perspective especially when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks.
Right on all counts.
It's funny the revisionism going on with Bortles this offseason. Remember he was rated in the top 60 players in the NFL going into 2016? That actually happened. The guy has shown legitimate ability. With a good defense and a good running game and his mechanics stable he can be part of a winning equation in Jacksonville.
I will know if Bortles is worth another season on his first drop back pass in preseason.
The moment he unloads that long windup, is the moment we'll all know it's time to move on. Just like when Tebow tried to fix his throwing motion. Just as soon as pressure came, he went back to his old ways.
I know good and well that he doesn't work harder than Tebow. And I'm not a Tebow fan.
Quote:I don't think that's fair. I also don't think you have to base Bortles on the overall package that he represents, and not just the qb with the tired, hurt arm from last year. I'll give you that Winston and Mariota have already reached an even higher tier, but Bortles is above the likes or RG3, etc. ...at least one good tier higher... until he shows he can be Mr. 2015 consistently. Other guys in his tier might include Andy Dalton, Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, Eli Manning (the current version) and Kirk Cousins.
Lol come on dude. All of those guys are orders of magnitude above Bortles. I mean first of all, each of them can functionally throw a football and have more wins than pick 6s.
Quote:Lol come on dude. All of those guys are orders of magnitude above Bortles. I mean first of all, each of them can functionally throw a football and have more wins than pick 6s.
Bortles is better than what we saw last year. His arm was hurt.
I think as a fan-base we have to collectively admit that 2015 was not a good season for Bortles outside of throwing for a lot of yards and touchdowns.
Quote:I think as a fan-base we have to collectively admit that 2015 was not a good season for Bortles outside of throwing for a lot of yards and touchdowns.
Why should we admit as much? As I recall, 2015 was a very good season for Bortles.
Arguably so.
But of all the QBs we waited on to not pan out... Bortles makes most sense to give patience to. He's got more upside and talent than Garrard or goldilocks.
If we were to bail on Bortles during the season and roll with the backup, it wouldn't be much different than Garrard/Leftwich.
It's the right time frame as far as patience goes (it's step up or step out this season,) but don't repeat the mistake we made with Garrard of thinking either of our backups is anything more than a very short term bridge to whoever we bring in if things don't pan out for Bortles.
Quote:Why should we admit as much? As I recall, 2015 was a very good season for Bortles.
People like to use the"he did it in garbage time" excuse all the time about his 2015 numbers. Imo he made throws in 2015 that, whether it was garbage time or not, were nfl throws that he was routinely missing in 2016.
The fade routes to the back corner of the endzone that he missed quite a few times in 2016, were the same ones that made the allen bros look like the wr's we know they can be one year prior.
Hopefully, between the time he is putting into his mechanics this off season and recouping from he injury. he can get back making those 2015 throws that had everyone hyped coming into last season.
Quote:I love you BritJag but this is why I disagree with your assessment on Blake not being on the same tier as Jameis and Mariota. In the case of Mariota and Jameis not only they had equal or better talent around but a better structure as well. In the case of Mariota he is not asked to win games for them and that identity is to run the ball and play great defense. In the case of Jameis they run the ball is well and his defense is significantly better than any defense that Blake had to play with within the last 3 years. In addition, Jameis has a coaching staff including the defensive coordinator and head coach who was essential to our last great winning season. Blake was asked to win games for this Team without a running game, a smoke-and-mirrors defense, and a coaching staff who has gotten their coaching acumen from coaching for dummies handbook. This year is the first time in his career that he's on the same playing field as far as personnel and coaching staff with the other young quarterbacks within the last 5 years so I promise there's no more excuses from Blake at this point. It is important to put everything into perspective especially when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks.
Well stated, Leopold. I admit I rather rashly point to wins when it comes to QBs. A QB can display tremendous skills and put up amazing numbers, but to me, it's all for nought if you do not win games. With the revamped D, and potential in the ground game, this is it for our QB, as you also stated. No more excuses, just win baby.