Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Seem like their is a lot of coaches on this board?? Guys tell me why then if this scheme is soo great,why were the Jags rank 25th in scoring defense and 30th in takeaways???? Hmmm.

Its a base defense. The amount of man/zone, level of blitzes etc are the details that differ from coach to coach. Thats the issue, its not merely a 4-3 issue like everyone keeps trying to simplify it as.

Quote:It's very clear you guys completely looked over, or you simply don't understand the concept of tweaks to a Defense.

 

You both probably think the LEO and OTTO are an actual position made up only for this scheme huh??

 

So without Myles beating Poz, where would you put him and how would he be best utilized?

 

Since you seem to think you're an expert, kindly educate us. Please. I'm dying to know.

It's not like they sit in the same front all game, pretty much isn't journalism, is this for real???

Quote:So without Myles beating Poz, where would you put him and how would he be best utilized?

 

Since you seem to think you're an expert, kindly educate us. Please. I'm dying to know.

Oh I never claimed to be an expert, but it's foolish to think they couldn't tweak a thing, or two in order to get Jack on the field more.

 

Could tweak the SAM a little and let him play a little more off of the ball. Don't have him up on the LOS as much. Maybe don't play quite as much Nickle. But with the way the NFL is currently, we all know that the Nickle Defense is going to be used a heavy amount.

 

So move him over to a Safety/LB type in Nickle to keep him on the field. Size isn't going to be a problem. Speed isn't going to be an issue. He likes to cover and we've only seen a small sample of his coverage ability in the NFL. I believe he'd be just fine in coverage though judging by how he was in College. He should have no problem pushing around smaller WRs. He's plenty big enough to match up against bigger TEs.

 

Move him around and be aggressive with him. Blitz him, drop him, let him play an edge. There's no reason all of these coaches cannot figure out a way to get him on the field. You're not going to be breaking the scheme. You'd very likely just be making it better by getting what we all hope, is another play maker on the field.

Quote:Oh I never claimed to be an expert, but it's foolish to think they couldn't tweak a thing, or two in order to get Jack on the field more.


Could tweak the SAM a little and let him play a little more off of the ball. Don't have him up on the LOS as much. Maybe don't play quite as much Nickle. But with the way the NFL is currently, we all know that the Nickle Defense is going to be used a heavy amount.


So move him over to a Safety/LB type in Nickle to keep him on the field. Size isn't going to be a problem. Speed isn't going to be an issue. He likes to cover and we've only seen a small sample of his coverage ability in the NFL. I believe he'd be just fine in coverage though judging by how he was in College. He should have no problem pushing around smaller WRs. He's plenty big enough to match up against bigger TEs.


Move him around and be aggressive with him. Blitz him, drop him, let him play an edge. There's no reason all of these coaches cannot figure out a way to get him on the field. You're not going to be breaking the scheme. You'd very likely just be making it better by getting what we all hope, is another play maker on the field.

Agreed. I think we'll see a lot more of Jack this year. Even the two weeks after Gus was gone Wash scrapped the Otto and he saw an uptick in snaps as Sam. It's not crazy to think he'll swap spots with Poz this year

Our defense didn't do much to change the outcome of games but they were rated highly in almost every category except turnovers (which goes back to changing the outcomes of games). Why change everything again and go back to being a turn style? This should be good for the young players to get acclimated. The defense didn't frustrate me nearly as much as the offense did. Outside of the San Diego game we played pretty well in most situations. The offense was incapable of not going 3 and out several possessions in a row. You would think the players could be more aggressive and think less staying in the same system that is proven to be effective. The next step is to take over and make game changing plays is all. I'd like to see us use Fowler differently that's about it.

Quote:So without Myles beating Poz, where would you put him and how would he be best utilized?


Since you seem to think you're an expert, kindly educate us. Please. I'm dying to know.

Just to chime in here, I'd make Jack a "spur" player. Think of a lighter Strong Safety. He would align outside of the formation and force plays from the outside in.


You could get him in coverage a lot easier as well.

As myself and others have mentioned in this thread and several others:

 

The scheme is fine and can be effective.  The primary issues many fans had last season was the frequency and timing of the zone coverage usage. 

 

Now that Wash doesn't have influence from Bradley and obviously will be influenced by Marrone's philosophy, he may intend to make adjustments in that regard.

 

If he implements a more aggressive style of play calling involving more man coverage, I think the 4-3U will be fine to move forward with. 

Quote:Oh I never claimed to be an expert, but it's foolish to think they couldn't tweak a thing, or two in order to get Jack on the field more.

 

Could tweak the SAM a little and let him play a little more off of the ball. Don't have him up on the LOS as much. Maybe don't play quite as much Nickle. But with the way the NFL is currently, we all know that the Nickle Defense is going to be used a heavy amount.

 

So move him over to a Safety/LB type in Nickle to keep him on the field. Size isn't going to be a problem. Speed isn't going to be an issue. He likes to cover and we've only seen a small sample of his coverage ability in the NFL. I believe he'd be just fine in coverage though judging by how he was in College. He should have no problem pushing around smaller WRs. He's plenty big enough to match up against bigger TEs.

 

Move him around and be aggressive with him. Blitz him, drop him, let him play an edge. There's no reason all of these coaches cannot figure out a way to get him on the field. You're not going to be breaking the scheme. You'd very likely just be making it better by getting what we all hope, is another play maker on the field.

 

Then you probably shouldn't open up a reply by saying "you simply don't understand the concept of tweaks "

 

Tweak the SAM? Doesn't matter when the opposing team goes nickel. 

 

Don't play as much nickel? haha funny. And have him match up with the shifty slot WRs in the NFL? Yeah, good one. 

 

If you play Myles, SOMEONE will have to come off the field. The question is who and where. It won't be the nickel because of the problems he'll have covering the slot WRs. This is the NFL. You cannot "hide" anyone or "protect" anyone. If he's there instead of a "nickel", you can bet that OC's will scheme it up to get him to match-up with that shifty receiver. And that's where you get into trouble as a defense, because you then have to scramble around to "protect" Myles, creating other holes in your defense.

 

Can he become a SS/LB hybrid? Well, if that's the case do you take out your natural SS to allow a true nickel cornerback to stay in the game? But then, why? Your natural SS *should* be better than your SS/LB hybrid when it comes to coverage. And against a passing formation, you'd ideally want the guy who covers better.

 

You can move him around, blitz him, drop him, let him play edge. Whatever. 

 

You. Still. Need. To. Take. Someone. Out. For. him

 

Until you can answer that question, you really can't be coming out and spouting off "you simply don't understand the concept of tweaks". 

 

Thus goes back to the original statement you questioned. The best way for Myles to get snaps, and consistent snaps...is for him to beat out Poz. Because Myles is the prototypical MLB in today's game.

 

That or we make a decision early enough for him to drop weight and make a conversion to SS. But even that doesn't make sense because we'd need a replacement for Poz anyway long-term. 

 

So yeah...let's keep it simple.

 

Beat out Poz, put Myles at MLB. And when he's there at MLB starting, guess what? Then you can do all the tweaks that you want. 

Quote:Then you probably shouldn't open up a reply by saying "you simply don't understand the concept of tweaks "

 

Tweak the SAM? Doesn't matter when the opposing team goes nickel. 

 

Don't play as much nickel? haha funny. And have him match up with the shifty slot WRs in the NFL? Yeah, good one. 

 

If you play Myles, SOMEONE will have to come off the field. The question is who and where. It won't be the nickel because of the problems he'll have covering the slot WRs. This is the NFL. You cannot "hide" anyone or "protect" anyone. If he's there instead of a "nickel", you can bet that OC's will scheme it up to get him to match-up with that shifty receiver. And that's where you get into trouble as a defense, because you then have to scramble around to "protect" Myles, creating other holes in your defense.

 

Can he become a SS/LB hybrid? Well, if that's the case do you take out your natural SS to allow a true nickel cornerback to stay in the game? But then, why? Your natural SS *should* be better than your SS/LB hybrid when it comes to coverage. And against a passing formation, you'd ideally want the guy who covers better.

 

You can move him around, blitz him, drop him, let him play edge. Whatever. 

 

You. Still. Need. To. Take. Someone. Out. For. him

 

Until you can answer that question, you really can't be coming out and spouting off "you simply don't understand the concept of tweaks". 

 

Thus goes back to the original statement you questioned. The best way for Myles to get snaps, and consistent snaps...is for him to beat out Poz. Because Myles is the prototypical MLB in today's game.

 

That or we make a decision early enough for him to drop weight and make a conversion to SS. But even that doesn't make sense because we'd need a replacement for Poz anyway long-term. 

 

So yeah...let's keep it simple.

 

Beat out Poz, put Myles at MLB. And when he's there at MLB starting, guess what? Then you can do all the tweaks that you want. 

To truly answer, we'd have to know if we're going to stay playing a bunch of off Zone, or play more aggressive Press and Man coverage. Him being able to come up and jam a smaller, shifty slot receiver will make it easier for him to cover them from time to time. If they stay playing that pure boring off Zone, then I agree, good luck covering them in space.

 

Using 3 Safeties in Nickel is nothing foreign in the NFL. Does Hooker have the range to come up and cover the slot from time to time? Or is he just a pure deep Safety? That would play into it if we were to draft him in this scenario. We also don't really know how much Jack would, or wouldn't struggle in coverage at the NFL level. He was great in college at coverage and yes this isn't college anymore. It's the big time now. We'll never know unless he gets a shot to show what he can do though.

 

Of course him taking over the MIKE is the key and long term out look, but what if he doesn't? You're really going to be into Jack sitting on the sideline for another full season. Waste the first 2 full seasons of his career sitting on the sidelines with minimal snaps? Talk about a huge waste of a special talent and a waste of a high draft pick.

 

Good coaches find a way to get their players on the field. That's what these coaches are getting paid to do. Put the best players on the field and win, win, win. I'm just trying to look outside the box here, but I guess we'll find out about the quality of our Defensive coaches this season.

 

There's no point in tweaking things for Jack, if he's on the field at the MIKE. Because like you said, he's your prototypical MIKE in today's NFL. If he beats out Poz, great, awesome. The point of some tweaks would be to get him on the field, in case Poz continues to play at the level he did this past season.

 

At the end of the day, hes got to play, period. That's the only way he's going to truly learn. He can only learn so much watching from the side lines.

 

Edit: After thinking about it some more, I'm pretty sure Perry Fewell has a lot of experience running a Nickel, which uses 3 Safeties.

Quote:Edit: After thinking about it some more, I'm pretty sure Perry Fewell has a lot of experience running a Nickel, which uses 3 Safeties.

 

 

Wait...


 

Say what?

Quote:Wait...


 

Say what?

what?

Quote:what?

 

 

lol...


 

3 safeties tho?


 

I know the nickel typically uses a "nickel corner"
(3rd CB)
as the 5th DB... if you add a 3rd S, doesn't that make it a dime, as in a "dime safety"?

Quote:lol...


 

3 safeties tho?


 

I know the nickel typically uses a "nickel corner"
(3rd CB)
as the 5th DB... if you add a 3rd S, doesn't that make it a dime, as in a "dime safety"?

It's called the Big Nickel. A lot of teams have been taking out the nickel corner and putting in a bigger safety. Lets them match up easier with bigger TEs. Lets them get creative with some blitz packages and can be better against the run when you have 5 DBs on the field.

 

There's an article on NFL.com that talks about it. Lemme see if I can find it.

 

edit: here - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...sive-trend

Get Jack on the field as a RB lol 

Maybe it's 3-4 time. Afterall, we have all the key pieces on the roster...


 

RDT Sen'Derrick Marks


NT Roy Miller III


LDE Malik Jackson


 

ROLB Yannic Ngakoue


RILB Poz


LILB Myles Jack


LOLB Fowler


 

 

Ugh... same problem, only now we don't have a spot for Telvin. Can we trade Telvin for a 1st round pick?

Quote:Maybe it's 3-4 time. Afterall, we have all the key pieces on the roster...

RDT Sen'Derrick Marks

NT Roy Miller III

LDE Malik Jackson


ROLB Yannic Ngakoue

RILB Poz

LILB Myles Jack

LOLB Fowler



Ugh... same problem, only now we don't have a spot for Telvin. Can we trade Telvin for a 1st round pick?

Get rid of Poz... Not Telvin....

Last year, it appeared the Jags wanted to keep Poz on the field at all times to receive the play call and make sure everyone lined up in the right place. Why can't we put the headset in Telvin's helmet and have him line up everyone? Then we could pull off Poz on 3rd and Nickel downs and have Jack slide to his spot.

 

So essentially on obvious run downs Jack would play SLB and then slide over to the MLB on obvious passing downs with Telvin staying on the field to relay the play call.

I think one thing missing from this conversation (unless I alone missed it) is the effect player development (or lack thereof) will have on the effectiveness of the scheme.

 

There has been an argument made that the 6th overall ranking of the defense is a bit misleading.  Admittedly there is some merit to the argument.  For the reduction in yards allowed, there were little to no game changing impact plays that make a defense truly effective.

 

But a lot of the key performers (actual and anticipated) in this scheme were only in their first year last year.

 

It is axiomatic that a player makes his biggest improvement from year one to year two.  If that general wisdom holds true here, we should see improved performances from Ngakoue, Fowler, Jack and Ramsey.  All will have a better grasp of how to condition their bodies.  All will have a better grasp of the scheme.  All will know how opponents will attack them, and have a better grasp of how to counter and attack opposing offenses.  As important, as some alluded to earlier, the coaching staff should have a better idea on how to utilize the players' strengths and weaknesses within the scheme.

 

I think more mature, developed and experienced players that are better utilized will be more consistent players, and ultimately make this defense better.

This makes me nervous because we have already heard key defensive players complaining that they are not being used correctly.