Quote:I heard this discussion on 1010xl one morning.
Is it the coaching staff that is mistakenly keeping him off the field or is it the fact he hasn't shown enough to deserve more playing time?
As critical as people have been about the coaching decisions, it's hard to fathom that even an inept staff would keep the best option off the field.
I really think it's just a rookie adjusting. I think Poz's experience gave him an edge. If we didn't have Poz, he would have been thrown out there. Granted, after taking some lumps, I think he would have come out for the better but we can't blame the coaches for not dislodging incumbents who were playing well.
Poz is playing well enough to keep him out of ilb but Jacks good enough to just be on the field whenever even if it means keeping him out of his best position.
Jacks problem coming out was shedding blocks, and his strength was coverage. Hes had to do the thing hes weakest at regularly and not been put in position to cover much at all.
Quote:Do you think scheme is not a factor at all, or just in Jack's case?
How do you explain Jerry Hughes?
He was drafted in the first round by the Colts and was a complete bust. Goes to Buffalo and becomes a double digit sack guy. Or for that matter...the entire Buffalo defense, that was a top unit under Marrone, but the same guys in a different scheme (Rex Ryan's) couldn't stop a runny nose.
Yes, good players make the most of their opportunities, but they have to get opportunities, and they have to be in a position to use their skills effectively.
Senderrick Marks proved to be a good DT for us. Somehow, I suspect he would not be considered a good player if lined up at CB. Same player. but unquestionably less desirable outcome.
Jack's example isn't as dramatic as the Marks hypothetical, of course. But the point is clear.
Like I said, I'm not saying that there isn't potential, I'm just evaluating to this point.
I remember Marrone's first game as HC and people talking about how much more playing time he got (to be honest I was out of town for the holiday and was unable to watch the best game of the season). He had 0 tackles.
I know we can talk about scheme all day, but it's just hard to comprehend a guy that is such a phenomenal athlete and has the freedom to roam as a LB, even if it is limited somewhat by the scheme, not recording any tackles.
Like I said, I'm not making a final judgement. I'm not one of those people that believe you can take a snapshot of someones play early in their career and decide what kind of player they will ultimately end up being. I am just pointing out things up until this point that I find a little concerning.
Quote:I really think it's just a rookie adjusting. I think Poz's experience gave him an edge. If we didn't have Poz, he would have been thrown out there. Granted, after taking some lumps, I think he would have come out for the better but we can't blame the coaches for not dislodging incumbents who were playing well.
This is what we can hope. I would love for him to prove my concerns wrong.
Quote:Poz is playing well enough to keep him out of ilb but Jacks good enough to just be on the field whenever even if it means keeping him out of his best position.
Jacks problem coming out was shedding blocks, and his strength was coverage. Hes had to do the thing hes weakest at regularly and not been put in position to cover much at all.
I kind of see this too.
Shedding blocks is a huge thing for a LB to be successful in the NFL.
Being good in coverage is a great thing, but not necessarily the attribute you can hang your hat on as a LB in the NFL.
That goes along with my tweener concerns.
Safety skills but too big and not quite quick enough to be a safety in the NFL.
Jack doesnt roam at slb lol
Quote:That's a tough question because who do you bump? Poz? Telvin? These are two extremely productive players that you would have to move to try out a guy that hasn't been that productive with the opportunities given.
People often talk about moving him to safety, but he would be more of a tweener player and tweeners typically don't work out that well in the NFL. He may have had the speed and quickness to play safety in college, but I don't think he could do that in the NFL.
I think LB is his best fit, but like I said, who do you bump to try him out at a different position without possibly shooting yourself in the foot?
I agree with all of that.
It's a tough call.
I like the
idea of a package being created in which he plays the SS role if Wash decides to get creative - and if the team doesn't acquire a clear upgrade there.
(I wonder if James Sample can finally stay healthy and take advantage of the probable Cyprien departure. )
Quote:I kind of see this too.
Shedding blocks is a huge thing for a LB to be successful in the NFL.
Being good in coverage is a great thing, but not necessarily the attribute you can hang your hat on as a LB in the NFL.
That goes along with my tweener concerns.
Safety skills but too big and not quite quick enough to be a safety in the NFL.
coverage is absolutely something you can hang your hat on in todays NFL. Weve seen Poz hang his hat on being a tackler and getting killed in coverage so regularly its a detriment to our defense(Hello chargers game).
"killed" in coverage... lol
hyperbole for 500, Alex!
He's not the best, but far from the worst at it.
6 INTs and 9 breakups in the last two seasons aren't garbage for a guy his age and skillset.
Quote:I agree with all of that.
It's a tough call.
I like the idea of a package being created in which he plays the SS role if Wash decides to get creative - and if the team doesn't acquire a clear upgrade there.
(I wonder if James Sample can finally stay healthy and take advantage of the probable Cyprien departure. )
As athletic as he is, I'm not sure he has the quickness to play safety.
As far as Cyprien goes, I wouldn't be surprised if the kept him. He is coming off his best season, in my opinion, and has a great skill set. His problem is that he makes those few bonehead mistakes per game which Coughlin usually knocks out of players.
Quote:coverage is absolutely something you can hang your hat on in todays NFL. Weve seen Poz hang his hat on being a tackler and getting killed in coverage so regularly its a detriment to our defense(Hello chargers game).
Not if you are going to be an every down LB.
Quote:"killed" in coverage... lol
hyperbole for 500, Alex!
He's not the best, but far from the worst at it.
6 INTs and 9 breakups in the last two seasons aren't garbage for a guy his age and skillset.
I agree. I always thought his lack of coverage skills was way over blown.
Has he made some bad plays in coverage? Yes, but people tend to extrapolate the few bad plays and ignore all the good plays he has made in coverage.
Quote:As athletic as he is, I'm not sure he has the quickness to play safety.
As far as Cyprien goes, I wouldn't be surprised if the kept him. He is coming off his best season, in my opinion, and has a great skill set. His problem is that he makes those few bonehead mistakes per game which Coughlin usually knocks out of players.
I was impressed with Cyprien's play in about 11 or 12 games in 2016.
In the others his coverage skills were picked on when he had to run with a TE. While it may have only been ~20 or so completions (or PI calls) that I'm referencing - those plays left a very bad taste in my mouth.
If I were an opposing OC facing the Jaguars w/ Cyprien starting, I'd definitely try to force him to cover a TE. I think it's a significant weakness.
Cyps skillset is he's a liability in coverage and he misses a ton of tackles.
Quote:coverage is absolutely something you can hang your hat on in todays NFL. Weve seen Poz hang his hat on being a tackler and getting killed in coverage so regularly its a detriment to our defense(Hello chargers game).
Yeah - he really didn't get "killed" in coverage in 2016.
Regarding the one bad game: Rivers picked apart the entire LB corps and secondary that day. McCoy and Wisenhunt had a great game-plan for our defense and Rivers executed it well.
Quote:I was impressed with Cyprien's play in about 11 or 12 games in 2016.
In the others his coverage skills were picked on when he had to run with a TE. While it may have only been ~20 or so completions (or PI calls) that I'm referencing - those plays left a very bad taste in my mouth.
If I were an opposing OC facing the Jaguars w/ Cyprien starting, I'd definitely try to force him to cover a TE. I think it's a significant weakness.
I hear you.
I'm not saying he isn't upgadeable, I'm just saying it might not be as easy as some think to find an upgrade.
He has the physical tools and is still young. I personally would re-sign him to at least have him as depth. Obviously that wouldn't preclude me from at least looking for an upgrade.
Im really hoping Sample can stay healthy this year.
Quote:Im really hoping Sample can stay healthy this year.
It would be nice to see what he is really capable of.
Quote:So maybe just maybe, he saw so little time because the position best suited for his skill set was being manned by a player who was playing to well to put on the bench.
definitely a possibility.
its also possible that gus was just trying to use him incorrectly....since he did that with a couple other players. he has had some real head scratching moves....i forget who it was but one player was too valuable to special teams to play their normal defensive role....someone refresh my memory?
Quote:i forget who it was but one player was too valuable to special teams to play their normal defensive role....someone refresh my memory?
That didn't actually happen.
That was just a narrative created on this board by taking some of Gus's comments out of context.
A player was benched in favor of another due to performance. When Gus was asked about player x not starting on defense - Gus's answer was that he was a valuable contributor on ST. He simply didn't throw the guy under the bus as some wanted him to constantly do for some insane reason. He just said the only nice thing he could think of.
His meaning got twisted into "he's too valuable on ST to play on defense."