Quote:You're not pointing out flaws, you're pointing out beliefs. I already explained the economics of it, if you're going to reply to that with "it's all robots" then I already pointed out the flaw in that consideration. I already explained that the tax rate doesn't matter and neither does the labor cost, every business in the US would have to deal with the same conditions, so it would be a fair market and it would be more beneficial to the poor and middle class of the USA instead of sending all of our money to communist party officials in China.
USA is not an isolated market, how many times do we go over this? Sure McDonald's and Burger King would have to play by the same rules in the USA, but this isn't the only place to sell hamburgers and fries anymore. It wouldn't be beneficial to the poor at all, they'd see less opportunities for entry level work, I've explained at least 3 times in this thread that companies will naturally offset the higher operating cost you're advocating with lower payroll.
Quote:USA is not an isolated market, how many times do we go over this? Sure McDonald's and Burger King would have to play by the same rules in the USA, but this isn't the only place to sell hamburgers and fries anymore. It wouldn't be beneficial to the poor at all, they'd see less opportunities for entry level work, I've explained at least 3 times in this thread that companies will naturally offset the higher operating cost you're advocating with lower payroll.
Bzzzzt.
By creating the need for corporations to do their business IN THE USA the current labor market imbalance caused by the exodus of factory jobs to China and other overseas destinations the cost of labor would actually increase and the wages would be pushed up.
You should let go of these ideological beliefs you have. Like I said, all the problems you think need to be fixed by lowering corporate taxes actually would be fixed by trade reform and would NOT be fixed by lowering corporate taxes.
Quote:Bzzzzt.
By creating the need for corporations to do their business IN THE USA the current labor market imbalance caused by the exodus of factory jobs to China and other overseas destinations the cost of labor would actually increase and the wages would be pushed up.
You should let go of these ideological beliefs you have. Like I said, all the problems you think need to be fixed by lowering corporate taxes actually would be fixed by trade reform and would NOT be fixed by lowering corporate taxes.
So let's recap you believe with the 2nd highest tax rate in the world, ending free trade, and raising import tariffs you would see manufacturing RETURN to the United States and they would Increase the wages?
.gif "Laughing")
Quote:So let's recap you believe with the 2nd highest tax rate in the world, ending free trade, and raising import tariffs you would see manufacturing RETURN to the United States and they would Increase the wages?
It's the simplest law of economics there is, supply and demand. Increase the demand for labor and the price for the supply of labor will increase. Create conditions where manufacturing in the USA is cheaper than manufacturing in third world nations and jobs will move to the USA. Free trade is the problem. You're just too wrapped up in your beliefs to understand it.
I'm all for import tariffs but you can't have it both ways. You can't have the highest tax rate in the world and then end free trade (which means companies in the USA would also be paying more to export goods world wide) keep CIT at the 35% ( In addition to state CIT ranging up to another 12%) raise the minimum wages and expect companies to stick around.
Quote:It's the simplest law of economics there is, supply and demand. Increase the demand for labor and the price for the supply of labor will increase. Create conditions where manufacturing in the USA is cheaper than manufacturing in third world nations and jobs will move to the USA. Free trade is the problem. You're just too wrapped up in your beliefs to understand it.
Manufacturing in the USA will never be cheaper than in the third world. NEVER, it's a pipe dream and it wouldn't change anything. Manufacturing isn't even a major employer in the next 30 years. You're talking about crippling industry to chase a dying breed of jobs that won't even exist in 30 years.
Quote:Manufacturing in the USA will never be cheaper than in the third world. NEVER, it's a pipe dream and it wouldn't change anything. Manufacturing isn't even a major employer in the next 30 years. You're talking about crippling industry to chase a dying breed of jobs that won't even exist in 30 years.
The manufacturing itself wouldn't be cheaper, the cost to manufacture domestically would be cheaper than the cost to import from slave wage areas of the world thanks to tariffs.
As for the rest of your post, you've yet to actually economically illustrate why I'm wrong, you're just rattling off talking points.
Quote:The manufacturing itself wouldn't be cheaper, the cost to manufacture domestically would be cheaper than the cost to import from slave wage areas of the world thanks to tariffs.
As for the rest of your post, you've yet to actually economically illustrate why I'm wrong, you're just rattling off talking points.
you're saying the reality that manufacturing is an industry that is being replaced by robotics is a talking point?
You act as if the USA imposing heavy tariffs (it would take EXTREME tariffs to level the cost of manufacturing) against imports wouldn't have an effect on our exports. We are just as dependent on exporting to the world as we are on importing from the world. What you're suggesting is economic isolationism. It's a system that would limit the national GDP at a time when we owe more than ever.
The idea is bad on so many levels it's dangerous.
Quote:you're saying the reality that manufacturing is an industry that is being replaced by robotics is a talking point?
You act as if the USA imposing heavy tariffs (it would take EXTREME tariffs to level the cost of manufacturing) against imports wouldn't have an effect on our exports. We are just as dependent on exporting to the world as we are on importing from the world. What you're suggesting is economic isolationism. It's a system that would limit the national GDP at a time when we owe more than ever.
The idea is bad on so many levels it's dangerous.
Yes, it is a talking point. Like I said there will always be human involvement in manufacturing, and if it were all robotics then it would already be done in the USA right now. I don't know why you think this is worth arguing.
It wouldn't take extreme tariffs, but extreme tariffs would be a good idea. The actual amount of labor involved in the manufacture of most items is a very marginal amount of its cost. Something as simple as assembling ipads would literally only take a few more dollars per unit to be assembled by Americans instead of the Chinese.
Still, a $100/unit tariff on ipads and iPhones would have production facilities in the US in months.
I'm not suggesting economic isolationism, right now the number one exports from the US are food and raw materials, the food the rest of the world will still want and will not try to have a trade war over, and the raw materials could be used in this country if we stopped exporting all of our production capability.
The dangerous ideas are the ones stuck in your head. The ones that keep telling you that rather than acting in the interests of the poor and middle class the USA has to keep kneeling further and further in deference to massive corporations.
Quote:Yes, it is a talking point. Like I said there will always be human involvement in manufacturing, and if it were all robotics then it would already be done in the USA right now. I don't know why you think this is worth arguing.
It wouldn't take extreme tariffs, but extreme tariffs would be a good idea. The actual amount of labor involved in the manufacture of most items is a very marginal amount of its cost. Something as simple as assembling ipads would literally only take a few more dollars per unit to be assembled by Americans instead of the Chinese.
Still, a $100/unit tariff on ipads and iPhones would have production facilities in the US in months.
I'm not suggesting economic isolationism, right now the number one exports from the US are food and raw materials, the food the rest of the world will still want and will not try to have a trade war over, and the raw materials could be used in this country if we stopped exporting all of our production capability.
The dangerous ideas are the ones stuck in your head. The ones that keep telling you that rather than acting in the interests of the poor and middle class the USA has to keep kneeling further and further in deference to massive corporations.
So raising the cost of imports will help the poor and middle class? And you don't think the rest of the world will retaliate and initiate a trade war. We'll just slap a big old tariff on their products and they won't do anything?
I don't think you understand why Ipads and Iphones are produced and assembled in China. It would only take a few more dollars to do it? I don't think you understand what you're talking about. Read this:
http://www.tuaw.com/2012/01/22/why-apple...assembled/
"The New York Times asked that question, and after an extremely well-researched report involving interviews with both former and current executives at Apple, the answer the Times found is both simple and chilling: iPhones aren't made in America because they just can't be. The infrastructure and labor force doesn't exist at the levels necessary to support Apple's operations -- it's not even close."
"One could argue that Apple's success has come at the expense of the American manufacturing workforce, but if the New York Times' report is anything to go by, it seems the workforce Apple would have needed in America never existed to begin with."
And it's not just the workforce. It's the fact that the Chinese build the factories that make the parts right next to the factories where the products are assembled. We will never, ever, be able to match Chinese manufacturing processes in this country. It is way beyond anything we have ever dreamed of.
So, slap a $100 tariff on Ipads, and they will still be manufactured in China, and all you will accomplish is make all those poor and middle class people you are concerned about pay $100 more for an Ipad.
And what of all the other tariffs you slap on all those other imports? You think all those poor and middle class people will enjoy paying more for half the stuff they buy at Wal-Mart? And you think the rest of the world won't retaliate? You are living in a dream world.
So we buy less of their stuff, and they buy less of our stuff because they're not making as much money selling us stuff as they used to! Great! We've made our worldwide customers a little poorer! Great plan! Let's just throw a bunch of sand into the gears of worldwide commerce.
Quote:So raising the cost of imports will help the poor and middle class? And you don't think the rest of the world will retaliate and initiate a trade war. We'll just slap a big old tariff on their products and they won't do anything?
I don't think you understand why Ipads and Iphones are produced and assembled in China. It would only take a few more dollars to do it? I don't think you understand what you're talking about. Read this: http://www.tuaw.com/2012/01/22/why-apple...assembled/
"The New York Times asked that question, and after an extremely well-researched report involving interviews with both former and current executives at Apple, the answer the Times found is both simple and chilling: iPhones aren't made in America because they just can't be. The infrastructure and labor force doesn't exist at the levels necessary to support Apple's operations -- it's not even close."
"One could argue that Apple's success has come at the expense of the American manufacturing workforce, but if the New York Times' report is anything to go by, it seems the workforce Apple would have needed in America never existed to begin with."
And it's not just the workforce. It's the fact that the Chinese build the factories that make the parts right next to the factories where the products are assembled. We will never, ever, be able to match Chinese manufacturing processes in this country. It is way beyond anything we have ever dreamed of.
So, slap a $100 tariff on Ipads, and they will still be manufactured in China, and all you will accomplish is make all those poor and middle class people you are concerned about pay $100 more for an Ipad.
And what of all the other tariffs you slap on all those other imports? You think all those poor and middle class people will enjoy paying more for half the stuff they buy at Wal-Mart? And you think the rest of the world won't retaliate? You are living in a dream world.
So we buy less of their stuff, and they buy less of our stuff because they're not making as much money selling us stuff as they used to! Great! We've made our worldwide customers a little poorer! Great plan! Let's just throw a bunch of sand into the gears of worldwide commerce.
Don't make me laugh, I've read the piece and about how Apple simply needs foxconn because of their company barracks and essentially slave labor conditions. "TIME TO GET UP, PROLES! TO THE ASSEMBLY LINE!"
Apple does their assembly in China because they can get away with it.
As for people paying $100 more for an ipad, no, that's not the case. I'm not surprised that you'd think it is, as conservatives seem to have no clue about supply curve and demand curve and input costs having no bearing on how many ipads you can sell.
Apple sells ipads for $500 because that's where they make the most money. If they jack up the price $100 they'd lose even more money than they would just by eating that $100 tariff.
Still, your points essentially all come back to "We can't do this because something bad might happen" which is idiotic, the bad is already happening. Jobs have been funneled away and people are living in poverty conditions with government assistance needed just to get by. Your notion that the status quo must be maintained is misguided, it's time for some real change.
Oh, hey. We're still on this fable that corporations pay taxes, huh?
Quote:Don't make me laugh, I've read the piece and about how Apple simply needs foxconn because of their company barracks and essentially slave labor conditions. "TIME TO GET UP, PROLES! TO THE ASSEMBLY LINE!"
Apple does their assembly in China because they can get away with it.
As for people paying $100 more for an ipad, no, that's not the case. I'm not surprised that you'd think it is, as conservatives seem to have no clue about supply curve and demand curve and input costs having no bearing on how many ipads you can sell.
Apple sells ipads for $500 because that's where they make the most money. If they jack up the price $100 they'd lose even more money than they would just by eating that $100 tariff.
Still, your points essentially all come back to "We can't do this because something bad might happen" which is idiotic, the bad is already happening. Jobs have been funneled away and people are living in poverty conditions with government assistance needed just to get by. Your notion that the status quo must be maintained is misguided, it's time for some real change.
First of all, I'm not a conservative.
Secondly, you did say, "Still, a $100/unit tariff on ipads and iPhones would have production facilities in the US in months." And I simply pointed out that that is not true. The manufacturing advantages in China go way beyond the cost of each worker. The Chinese have huge advantages in logistics and flexibility that the US will never be able to match, to the point that slapping a $100 import tariff on Ipads and Iphones will have no effect on where they are produced.
And if, as you say, Apple will simply eat that $100 tariff, how can you say the tariff has worked to put more jobs in the US? I thought that's what you were after. All you will have accomplished is to levy a giant tax on Apple Corporation, whose stock is held in the 401k plans of all those middle class people you say you want to help.
Quote:First of all, I'm not a conservative.
Secondly, you did say, "Still, a $100/unit tariff on ipads and iPhones would have production facilities in the US in months." And I simply pointed out that that is not true. The manufacturing advantages in China go way beyond the cost of each worker. The Chinese have huge advantages in logistics and flexibility that the US will never be able to match, to the point that slapping a $100 import tariff on Ipads and Iphones will have no effect on where they are produced.
And if, as you say, Apple will simply eat that $100 tariff, how can you say the tariff has worked to put more jobs in the US? I thought that's what you were after. All you will have accomplished is to levy a giant tax on Apple Corporation, whose stock is held in the 401k plans of all those middle class people you say you want to help.
The level of tariff I'm talking about definitely would bring jobs over, and while Apple denies they would bring jobs over they're simply lying. They've literally sold 85 million iphones (not even bringing ipads or ipods into it) in the USA since the product debuted. If they had to pay $125 for each of those they sold in the USA (because they charge even more for iphones than they do for ipads) to the federal government that would be more than 10 billion dollars. That's not money they would pass up.
All of their talk of how they need China's factory flexibility is a red herring. If an item debuts in September or October because it takes longer to change factory layout won't change how many phones they sell and the marginal difference in cost per phone would be miniscule compared to paying billions of dollars in tariffs.
As for them eating the tariff, if they did that would be fine, too. The USA could use that money, and money from any other tech company that would rather pay an approximately-20%-of-retail tariff to help fund entrepreneurship programs here in the USA to bring more domestic corporations and production facilities into the fold to help make sure Apple has plenty of competition.
Quote:Oh, hey. We're still on this fable that corporations pay taxes, huh?
3 pages in, and someone finally pointed it out.
No one remembers GE's 2013 tax report? Hint: no matter how much GE makes this year, the 2014 report will be the same.
Quote:I was right with you until you got to the "making up for lost revenue".
That's the problem. The OP, like so many brainwashed Americans forgot who serves who. They think that funding this lunacy that is modern government is somehow a requirement of the taxpayer. I guess our friend feels that the Government is just smarter than the average person who clearly cannot be trusted to make financial decisions for themselves. It's just better if bureaucrats take the money and dole it out for the good of everyone.
Quote:Oh, hey. We're still on this fable that corporations pay taxes, huh?
The mega corporations avoid taxes but the millions of smaller corporations pay suffocating taxes.
Quote:The mega corporations avoid taxes but the millions of smaller corporations pay suffocating taxes.
No they don't, their customers do in the form of higher prices. Corporations are simple middle men for the government when it comes to taxation.
Quote:No they don't, their customers do in the form of higher prices. Corporations are simple middle men for the government when it comes to taxation.
Customers pay the sales tax, the business pays the payroll taxes, and income taxes.
Quote:Customers pay the sales tax, the business pays the payroll taxes, and income taxes.
All costs for business are eventually paid by the customers. Payroll taxes are paid by the employees in the form of lower wages, unless you really believe that your employers pays their "half" and it's not at your expense.