Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:typically a great QB does.

 

 

Quote:Baloney.


Maybe a GREAT QB. Good? No way.


You're talking about Henne being crappy, below average, average, or good and then you try to use one of the best QBs ever for comparison purposes? Pffft.


You're trying to make 2+2=6.

 

Or you guys could take Pirkster's tact and believe that Brady and Luck and Roethlisberger were being carried.

 

Fact is that bad QBs make bad teams. The Jaguars will never be a good team with a bad QB. Henne, Gabbert, doesn't matter, this team won't win significant amounts of games with those guys.

 

An actually average type QB would be Garrard or Schaub. They can be carried by their team to some degree but they lose against Great QBs.

 

Great QBs make their teams better.

 

That anyone would think the Jaguars don't win a lot more games last year with Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck at the helm is insane.

Quote:Or you guys could take Pirkster's tact and believe that Brady and Luck and Roethlisberger were being carried.


Fact is that bad QBs make bad teams. The Jaguars will never be a good team with a bad QB. Henne, Gabbert, doesn't matter, this team won't win significant amounts of games with those guys.


An actually average type QB would be Garrard or Schaub. They can be carried by their team to some degree but they lose against Great QBs.


Great QBs make their teams better.


That anyone would think the Jaguars don't win a lot more games last year with Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck at the helm is insane.

I take what you say with a grain of salt Mr. Flip-flop. Apparently the same excuses you vehemently made for Gabbert don't apply for Henne. I'm not saying Henne is great, good, or average...just that you're ridiculous.

Quote:I take what you say with a grain of salt Mr. Flip-flop. Apparently the same excuses you vehemently made for Gabbert don't apply for Henne. I'm not saying Henne is great, good, or average...just that you're ridiculous.

 

I didn't make excuses for Gabbert, I just said don't give up on him until you're sure he's already peaked.

Quote:Or you guys could take Pirkster's tact and believe that Brady and Luck and Roethlisberger were being carried.

 

Fact is that bad QBs make bad teams. The Jaguars will never be a good team with a bad QB. Henne, Gabbert, doesn't matter, this team won't win significant amounts of games with those guys.

 

An actually average type QB would be Garrard or Schaub. They can be carried by their team to some degree but they lose against Great QBs.

 

Great QBs make their teams better.

 

That anyone would think the Jaguars don't win a lot more games last year with Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck at the helm is insane.

 

You just won't quit.  Henne is not a bad QB.  As difficult as it is to believe there are shades on the spectrum between Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert. 

Quote:You just won't quit. Henne is not a bad QB. As difficult as it is to believe there are shades on the spectrum between Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert.

he may not be bad but he's below average and at this point we are just wasting time on technicalities. Also to the above poster.. Brady, luck, Roethlisberger we're not carried by their teams.. They led them.

Quote:Or you guys could take Pirkster's tact and believe that Brady and Luck and Roethlisberger were being carried.


Fact is that bad QBs make bad teams. The Jaguars will never be a good team with a bad QB. Henne, Gabbert, doesn't matter, this team won't win significant amounts of games with those guys.


An actually average type QB would be Garrard or Schaub. They can be carried by their team to some degree but they lose against Great QBs.


Great QBs make their teams better.


That anyone would think the Jaguars don't win a lot more games last year with Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck at the helm is insane.

I know that we didn't win consistently w/Henne at the helm...


If Garrard and Schaub were average then...


Can U say Below Grade???


NH3...

I was in no way comparing what Henne does on a field to Tom Brady. I was making a point that a GREAT QB (you are correct that GOOD won't cut it) makes those around him better. I was moreso challenging the argument that a supporting cast makes a QB significantly more than what he is. For example.. Scott Mitchell could not ask for much more than what he had with Barry Sanders, Herman Moore and Brett Perriman. The reason they never saw the post season success they wanted was the limitation of the QB play. You know when you have a QB and you know when you don't.

Quote:You just won't quit. Henne is not a bad QB. As difficult as it is to believe there are shades on the spectrum between Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert.

Henne is not a bad QB compared to what exactly? How far above Blaine Gabbert (who beat out Henne a year ago) is Henne on this spectrum you speak of? Are statistics like TDs, INTs and Wins factoring into this equation?

Quote:I was in no way comparing what Henne does on a field to Tom Brady. I was making a point that a GREAT QB (you are correct that GOOD won't cut it) makes those around him better. I was moreso challenging the argument that a supporting cast makes a QB significantly more than what he is. For example.. Scott Mitchell could not ask for much more than what he had with Barry Sanders, Herman Moore and Brett Perriman. The reason they never saw the post season success they wanted was the limitation of the QB play. You know when you have a QB and you know when you don't.

 

That's supposed to be supporting your point?  So now we're going to try using 'playoff success' as an indicator of a great or good quarterback?  Manning and Marino must suck.

Quote:I was in no way comparing what Henne does on a field to Tom Brady. I was making a point that a GREAT QB (you are correct that GOOD won't cut it) makes those around him better. I was moreso challenging the argument that a supporting cast makes a QB significantly more than what he is. For example.. Scott Mitchell could not ask for much more than what he had with Barry Sanders, Herman Moore and Brett Perriman. The reason they never saw the post season success they wanted was the limitation of the QB play. You know when you have a QB and you know when you don't.

 

The first example that comes to mind is Trent Dilfer.  The Ravens won the Superbowl in 2001 with a great defense, strong running game and an average quarterback.

 

Another example is Brad Johnson.  The Buccaneers won the Superbowl in 2003 with a great supporting cast and an average quarterback.

Manning went to three Super Bowls and Marino went to one. Both advanced to AFC title games.

Dilfer was clearly not the reason Baltimore won. How Baltimore treated him after that contract speaks volumes. Brad Johnson also had the luxury of a shutdown defense, but was one of the more accurate QBs in the league at the time.

Quote:We've seen it over and over again, it's the QB that makes the team good, not the other way around. Remember the difference between the 2010 colts and 2011 colts?

 

Sorry that reality doesn't fit the agenda.

 

Refer to my above post.  Are you going to say that Trent Dilfer made the Ravens good?  Are you going to say that Brad Johnson made the Buccaneers good?

 

Henne is no better or worse than those two quarterbacks.

Overall, Henne is an Average QB. He's good/consistent for a few games to where he simply looks good. And then he lays his eggs... He's bad/inconsistent w/INTs for the following two-three games. It's almost like when he plays good, he gets overconfident and tries too hard to make the throws that he shouldn't...


Hinse Henne's TD-INT ratio...


NH3...

Quote:You just won't quit.  Henne is not a bad QB.  As difficult as it is to believe there are shades on the spectrum between Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert. 

 

Uh, you just don't get it, do you?

 

You believing he's not as bad as Gabbert doesn't make him not bad. By any rational measure he's bad. Want to go with passer rating? YPA? Career winning percentage? TD/INT ratio?

 

The problem you and a lot of people in this thread have is you're confusing your emotional feelings about Henne and the team with his objectively measurable status as a starting QB. He's bad. Any team starting him would be desperately searching for his replacement.

Quote:You just won't quit.  Henne is not a bad QB.  As difficult as it is to believe there are shades on the spectrum between Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert. 

 

You're blind if you think Henne is anything other than a bad QB.

Quote:Refer to my above post.  Are you going to say that Trent Dilfer made the Ravens good?  Are you going to say that Brad Johnson made the Buccaneers good?

 

Henne is no better or worse than those two quarterbacks.

As awful as Dilfer was even he cracked the 15 TD barrier. Between the two, they had six seasons of 20 TDs or more. Henne is worse than Johnson for sure and is similar if not slightly worse than Dilfer.

Quote:Refer to my above post.  Are you going to say that Trent Dilfer made the Ravens good?  Are you going to say that Brad Johnson made the Buccaneers good?

 

Henne is no better or worse than those two quarterbacks.

 

 

A great QB can carry a mediocre team. A great team can carry a mediocre QB. 
The difference is that a great QB can make the rest of the team look better. The clots team looked better because of Manning. Their offensive linemen made the Pro Bowl because Manning was great at avoiding sacks. The DEs got more sacks because the other team was playing from behind. Their RBs never faced 8-man fronts. Receivers got the ball where they could catch it. It was essentially the same team in 2011 that it was in 2010, but suddenly every player on the 2011 clots looked a lot worse.

 

The Ravens and Bucs were good in spite of their QBs. The Ravens did not make Trent Dilfer better. His QB rating was only slightly higher than his career average, and that average included a couple of terrible years early in his career. Dilfer's best season came with the Seahawks. Likewise, Brad Johnson's 2003 stats with the Bucs were around his career average. His QB rating was below his career average. The Bucs otherwise great team did not make him better.

 

A better Jags team is not going to make Henne better.

Quote:A great QB can carry a mediocre team. A great team can carry a mediocre QB. 
The difference is that a great QB can make the rest of the team look better. The clots team looked better because of Manning. Their offensive linemen made the Pro Bowl because Manning was great at avoiding sacks. The DEs got more sacks because the other team was playing from behind. Their RBs never faced 8-man fronts. Receivers got the ball where they could catch it. It was essentially the same team in 2011 that it was in 2010, but suddenly every player on the 2011 clots looked a lot worse.


 
The Ravens and Bucs were good in spite of their QBs. The Ravens did not make Trent Dilfer better. His QB rating was only slightly higher than his career average, and that average included a couple of terrible years early in his career. Dilfer's best season came with the Seahawks. Likewise, Brad Johnson's 2003 stats with the Bucs were around his career average. His QB rating was below his career average. The Bucs otherwise great team did not make him better.


 
A better Jags team is not going to make Henne better.

I agree that better surroundings doesn't make a QB (Henne) better. He'll be the same player performance wise that he was w/Miami and is here w/us...


Hinse the drafting/need for a franchise QB...


NH3...

Quote:Henne is not a bad QB compared to what exactly? How far above Blaine Gabbert (who beat out Henne a year ago) is Henne on this spectrum you speak of? Are statistics like TDs, INTs and Wins factoring into this equation?

 

There is no scale for "good" so it's largely based on judgement, but he is a marginal starter and he would be one of the better backups in the league.  That in no way qualifies as "bad" and is considerably better than truly bad players like Luke McCown, Blaine Gabbert, or Tim Tebow.