Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Seneca Wallace.  Lifetime backup.

 

Jimmy Clausen.

Quote:As a black man I strongly disagree and I am a little insulted and disappointed that you are trying to make this a race thing......


I want TB to succeed but I feel he needs to spend at least 1-2 years on the bench as Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers did. I think if he started for a team right now he would be a game manager at best, and a potential bust if drafted in the top 10.


He isn't ready to start yet, and that goes for any QB in this draft.

 

First off, just because a QB is not ready to start immediately does not mean he was not worth the draft position.  Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair and Carson Palmer were three QBs who started off on the bench to go on to have good careers.  They were all definitely worth the wait and draft pick.

 

Secondly, even assuming Bridgewater has legitimate football based concerns (he does)does not negate the existence of illegitimate, race based comparisons.  Nobody who has seen both guys play could legitimately compare Bridgewater to Seneca freaking Wallace.  Wallace was a small player (< 6 foot), very mobile and athletic, and did not read defenses anywhere nearly as proficiently as Bridgewater.  Such a comparison is a living dichotomy of either being overly contrived or not trying hard enough. 

.....is above the floor in every room in his house.

Quote:Id say his floor is the Chiefs Alex Smith and his ceiling is right in that Matt Ryan / Joe Flacco win it if he has the pieces around him level. Maybe not Rodgers (though i think his game is closely modeled to Rodgers they have the same movements and motions you can tell Teddy studied him and tried to use that as a blue print) or Brady/Manning as they dont just fall off trees but still.

 

Lets say this:

 

Flip Teddy and Manziels playing styles on the same body.

 

If Teddy was the one with zero structure who couldnt read defenses and played on a wing and a prayer with bad mechanics,bad decision making and had known attitude / off field problems and questions of dedication and work ethic he would be ripped wide open and trashed as a 6th round at best prospect who is just another run first black QB with attitude issues and isnt really into football.  Aka Marcus Vick or Terrell Pryor.

 

If Manziel was the one who studied the game and was praised by GMs ,scouts and even his opponents for his preparation, who waited patiently in the pocket, beat teams with his mind , threw amazing touch passes , was in complete control of his offense and given full freedom to audible and adjust plays on the fly and had zero off field issues he would be Andrew Luck.

 

Sorry to be the one to bring it up but IMO its true.

 

I love Johnny Manziel but your right, if he was black he would be ripped apart, look what happen to Geno Smith with his lil attitude stuff leading up to the draft we didnt know any of that stuff while he was in college.  

Quote:First off, just because a QB is not ready to start immediately does not mean he was not worth the draft position.  Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair and Carson Palmer were three QBs who started off on the bench to go on to have good careers.  They were all definitely worth the wait and draft pick.

 

Secondly, even assuming Bridgewater has legitimate football based concerns (he does)does not negate the existence of illegitimate, race based comparisons.  Nobody who has seen both guys play could legitimately compare Bridgewater to Seneca freaking Wallace.  Wallace was a small player (< 6 foot), very mobile and athletic, and did not read defenses anywhere nearly as proficiently as Bridgewater.  Such a comparison is a living dichotomy of either being overly contrived or not trying hard enough. 

 

And i'll say it on this post too I love Johnny Manziel but if your really wanted to say one of the top QBs in this draft ceiling is Seneca Wallace it would Johnny Manziel, I dont agree with that, but at least you would have some base on saying it, both are 5'11 QBs who ran around and made plays, but Johnny is a way better QB, but you would get where somebody would be coming from if they tried to say that. But to say Teddy is Wallace just proves Ninja#117 point on the race thing. 

Quote:Id say his floor is the Chiefs Alex Smith and his ceiling is right in that Matt Ryan / Joe Flacco win it if he has the pieces around him level. Maybe not Rodgers (though i think his game is closely modeled to Rodgers they have the same movements and motions you can tell Teddy studied him and tried to use that as a blue print) or Brady/Manning as they dont just fall off trees but still.


Lets say this:


Flip Teddy and Manziels playing styles on the same body.


If Teddy was the one with zero structure who couldnt read defenses and played on a wing and a prayer with bad mechanics,bad decision making and had known attitude / off field problems and questions of dedication and work ethic he would be ripped wide open and trashed as a 6th round at best prospect who is just another run first black QB with attitude issues and isnt really into football. Aka Marcus Vick or Terrell Pryor.


If Manziel was the one who studied the game and was praised by GMs ,scouts and even his opponents for his preparation, who waited patiently in the pocket, beat teams with his mind , threw amazing touch passes , was in complete control of his offense and given full freedom to audible and adjust plays on the fly and had zero off field issues he would be Andrew Luck.


Sorry to be the one to bring it up but IMO its true.

the white man holdin em down? Is Charles Davis racist also who said Teddy isnt worth a top 10 pick?

Quote:the white man holdin em down? Is Charles Davis racist also who said Teddy isnt worth a top 10 pick?

 

Yes.  He hates black people.  You can imagine what an identity crisis that causes.

 

...Although Charles Davis really sucks at evaluating players.

Quote:the white man holdin em down? Is Charles Davis racist also who said Teddy isnt worth a top 10 pick?

 

 

Nope not at all. Its just the perception around QBs.

 

Traditionally Black QBs have been running QBs and the few pure pocket passers havent fared too well in the past. Some people dont want to believe in Bridgewater because of this. Its not his accuracy, mechanics or intangibles which all justify a top 5 pick its the perception that black Qbs are run first and when they try to do anything other than that it fails. People always assumes its every trick in the book from scheme to lesser opponents to inflated numbers due to conference and have  to drum up everything from his hands to his body frame as reasons as to why he isnt that good.

 

Maybe just maybe he IS that good. When people talk about him controlling the offense with audibles and adjustments he really does that. Its just hard for some to believe it when it pertains to a black QB because that hasnt been the case in the past. Same thing goes for his film study and dedication to playing QB.

 

If he were white nobody would question it and call the praise overrated until he actually busted as a NFL QB not months before the draft when his entire college career has followed the arc of another franchise QB in Andrew Luck. Both went to lesser programs and put them on the map.  Both were praised for their smarts and ability to control a game and lead teams with lesser talent around them. Both have decent but not cannons for arms. Both have mobility but only use it when needed. Both are praised for their film study and work ethic. Both deadly accurate in the short to mid levels but not great deep.   Maybe its not direct racism but it is past perception and not his actual game as that part is outstanding.  

Quote:Yes. He hates black people. You can imagine what an identity crisis that causes.


...Although Charles Davis really sucks at evaluating players.

what about Bucky Brooks who has him goin 8th to the Vikings?

Pretty much the same can be said for Brooks. NFL Network isn't really known for having the brightest talent evaluators.

Quote:.....is above the floor in every room in his house.

 

 

Quote:First off, just because a QB is not ready to start immediately does not mean he was not worth the draft position.  Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair and Carson Palmer were three QBs who started off on the bench to go on to have good careers.  They were all definitely worth the wait and draft pick.

 

Secondly, even assuming Bridgewater has legitimate football based concerns (he does)does not negate the existence of illegitimate, race based comparisons.  Nobody who has seen both guys play could legitimately compare Bridgewater to Seneca freaking Wallace.  Wallace was a small player (< 6 foot), very mobile and athletic, and did not read defenses anywhere nearly as proficiently as Bridgewater.  Such a comparison is a living dichotomy of either being overly contrived or not trying hard enough. 

 

Don't you think the fact that you brought up Steven McNair kind of disproves that people are basing his skills on race....The reason guys like Steven McNair, Aaron Rodgers, and Carson Palmer were worth the wait is because they had elite level tangibles. I.E. arm strength, height, weight, etc....to go along with their football I.Q.

 

Yes there are always a few knuckleheads that just throw out comparisons because TB is black. But for the most part that is not the case.

 

And if Manziel were Black he would still be a 2nd round pick at worst. If Pat White and Colin Kaepernick can go towards the top of the 2nd round, then definitely a BLACK MANZIEL can (based on his college career) and probably higher....

Quote:.....is above the floor in every room in his house.

is this the right house?

Akili Smith because black. 

Quote:Nope not at all. Its just the perception around QBs.

 

Traditionally Black QBs have been running QBs and the few pure pocket passers havent fared too well in the past. Some people dont want to believe in Bridgewater because of this. Its not his accuracy, mechanics or intangibles which all justify a top 5 pick its the perception that black Qbs are run first and when they try to do anything other than that it fails. People always assumes its every trick in the book from scheme to lesser opponents to inflated numbers due to conference and have  to drum up everything from his hands to his body frame as reasons as to why he isnt that good.

 

Maybe just maybe he IS that good. When people talk about him controlling the offense with audibles and adjustments he really does that. Its just hard for some to believe it when it pertains to a black QB because that hasnt been the case in the past. Same thing goes for his film study and dedication to playing QB.

 

If he were white nobody would question it and call the praise overrated until he actually busted as a NFL QB not months before the draft when his entire college career has followed the arc of another franchise QB in Andrew Luck. Both went to lesser programs and put them on the map.  Both were praised for their smarts and ability to control a game and lead teams with lesser talent around them. Both have decent but not cannons for arms. Both have mobility but only use it when needed. Both are praised for their film study and work ethic. Both deadly accurate in the short to mid levels but not great deep.   Maybe its not direct racism but it is past perception and not his actual game as that part is outstanding.  

Sometime folks read or perhaps project far too much into things, which exposes their own biases.

 

If this were true, Eric Crouch would have been put on a pedestal, rather than being relegated to WR, then safety.

It's still unknown  -  but I'd guess it's somewhere in between Tannehill and Matt Ryan. 

 

I think he'll be decent and possibly pretty good, 

God

Quote:Don't you think the fact that you brought up Steven McNair kind of disproves that people are basing his skills on race....The reason guys like Steven McNair, Aaron Rodgers, and Carson Palmer were worth the wait is because they had elite level tangibles. I.E. arm strength, height, weight, etc....to go along with their football I.Q.

 

Yes there are always a few knuckleheads that just throw out comparisons because TB is black. But for the most part that is not the case.

 

And if Manziel were Black he would still be a 2nd round pick at worst. If Pat White and Colin Kaepernick can go towards the top of the 2nd round, then definitely a BLACK MANZIEL can (based on his college career) and probably higher....

No.

 

First off, I wasn't talking actual team decision makers.  I don't believe anybody who posts here has any access to NFL decisionmakers, much less has the trust of those decisionmakers to divulge information to them.  I am referring to common fans, pundits, media talking heads, etc.  If you had a QB who turned his team around, took his team to the Super Bowl and numerous other playoff appearances, and multiple pro bowls, in most instances, they'd be held in some esteem.  But take a look at the visceral response whenever someone chimes in on McNabb.

 

Secondly, the fact you acknowledge the "knuckleheads" is an admission race may be a factor in some of the derision towards Bridgewater.

 

Finally, we are talking about the view of Manziel from fans, pundits, etc.  Without question, there would be a completely different dynamic on the board if we were talking about Bridgewater being the wild eyed, party animal, outspoken scrambler who has had questionable dealings that ran him afoul of the NCAA, has fought teammates and taunted opponents vs the cerebral, understated pocket passer Manziel.

 

Lest you think this isn't the case, consider the response to Shack when he did not draft Brady Quinn in 2007 (despite having Leftwich and Garrard on the roster).  There were many who argued Shack was racist for having all of these black QBs on the roster and not drafting Quinn.  Nevermind that: 

 

1.  From a talent perspective, Shack was absolutely right on Quinn; and

2.  Shack only brought in one of the three black QBs on the roster (Leftwich).

 

Conversely, after Gene Smith brought in Gabbert, who proved to be far more of a monumental failure than BL and Garrard (and Quinn, for that matter), not once did anyone suggest he had any racial motive (conscious or subconscious) in doing so.

 

The sad truth is the escapist activity of message board pontification on football isn't immune from bias-conscious or subconscious.  Does that represent the majority of criticism towards Bridgewater?  No.  But to suggest it plays zero role in the criticism is naive.  It goes in many different directions, and white players often get the wrong end of presumptions based on race in sports.

Quote:Sometime folks read or perhaps project far too much into things, which exposes their own biases.

 

If this were true, Eric Crouch would have been put on a pedestal, rather than being relegated to WR, then safety.

 

That only works if Crouch had any sliver of ability to actually be a QB, which he didn't.

Quote:Lest you think this isn't the case, consider the response to Shack when he did not draft Brady Quinn in 2007 (despite having Leftwich and Garrard on the roster).  There were many who argued Shack was racist for having all of these black QBs on the roster and not drafting Quinn.  Nevermind that: 

 

1.  From a talent perspective, Shack was absolutely right on Quinn; and

2.  Shack only brought in one of the three black QBs on the roster (Leftwich).

 

You're forgetting that Shack brought in the great Cleo Lemon as well.

 

There was something to the Shack criticism that was warranted.  I think it's well within his character to be seeking to give opportunities to those who he saw himself in.  This, based on his experiences, which unfortunately dealt with race.

 

That's similar to what Gene did, too.  Gene tried too hard looking to give guys like himself a break, too (small school, overachiever, marginal talent, high character, etc. guys.)

 

They were flip sides of the same coin.  They were offering opportunities to guys they could identify with.