(06-10-2017, 06:19 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2017, 10:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]
Ok then.
If understanding that football is a team sport and that there was much more wrong with the team last season than just Blake playing like an average non franchise QB is giving him a pass then okay, anyone sane must be giving him a pass right now.
This not reading thing is becoming a recurring theme with you. All you have to do is scroll up in this thread to see that the picture you're trying to paint as my position is false. You do make it very difficult sometimes to want to respond to you, but at least you're finally admitting what the foundation of your argument is. First step in the right direction.
(06-10-2017, 01:16 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 06:19 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]If understanding that football is a team sport and that there was much more wrong with the team last season than just Blake playing like an average non franchise QB is giving him a pass then okay, anyone sane must be giving him a pass right now.
This not reading thing is becoming a recurring theme with you. All you have to do is scroll up in this thread to see that the picture you're trying to paint as my position is false. You do make it very difficult sometimes to want to respond to you, but at least you're finally admitting what the foundation of your argument is. First step in the right direction.
I don't want to continue to let this thread be a "blame game" narrative and lose the topic, but seriously gents:
The coaching cost the team wins last year. Blake cost the team wins last year. The coaching should have been more proactive in mitigating Blake's repeated errors and working to shore up his technique, but he made plenty of straight up boneheaded bad decisions couple with very poor accuracy.
Bottom line: Lots of blame to go 'round here and we don't really have to agree on exactly how it's divvied up.
Now - do you two believe the
current roster (assuming Marrone and company are at least a mid tier staff) has enough talent to win 8 games or more in 2017?
(06-10-2017, 07:05 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]As to your question, I believe the defense showed improvement despite the coaching because there was a great infusion of talent. Last offseason, the team added Malik Jackson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack (though inexplicably the team didn't play him much), Yannick Ngakoue, Abry Jones developed, Fowler returned, and we managed to get a decent year out of Cyprien. Sometimes a team or part of a team can perform well despite not good coaching (see 90's Eagles under Kotite, 1994-95 Cowboys under Switzer). Consider also the sentiments by Ramsey and others once Bradley was fired about the players not being utilized to their talents. I think given that infusion of talent, improvement on that side of the ball was inevitable, much like there was improvement in the offense after the 2014 draft.
I agree with you that special teams cost us at least 3 games last year, and several games over the course of Bradley's unfortunate tenure.
Ultimately, the negative impact of bad coaching will be much lower than it has been in years past. All three phases of the game should see improvement this year and in the years to come.
Fair enough. The talent on defense was better. I feel like you're cherry picking a bit but I'll leave it alone. We're all forming opinions here based on available info. I happen to firmly believe that the available info clearly points to Blake as the biggest culprit last year, but arguing the point appears to be an exercise in futility. There was a lot of room for improvement in several key areas last year. It just feels like there is an effort by some to rewrite history and sweep as much of that blame away from Blake as possible for whatever reason. Maybe they got a Bortles tattoo or something, who knows.
(06-10-2017, 01:35 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 01:16 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]This not reading thing is becoming a recurring theme with you. All you have to do is scroll up in this thread to see that the picture you're trying to paint as my position is false. You do make it very difficult sometimes to want to respond to you, but at least you're finally admitting what the foundation of your argument is. First step in the right direction.
I don't want to continue to let this thread be a "blame game" narrative and lose the topic, but seriously gents:
The coaching cost the team wins last year. Blake cost the team wins last year. The coaching should have been more proactive in mitigating Blake's repeated errors and working to shore up his technique, but he made plenty of straight up boneheaded bad decisions couple with very poor accuracy.
Bottom line: Lots of blame to go 'round here and we don't really have to agree on exactly how it's divvied up.
Now - do you two believe the current roster (assuming Marrone and company are at least a mid tier staff) has enough talent to win 8 games or more in 2017?
The OP started the thread by assigning blame. I think the discussion was on topic though I would have preferred a more civil and rational response from SeldomRite. It's the internet though so it comes with the territory.
I do think Bortles could win 8 or more games with this roster. I also think he could be the reason we don't if he doesn't progress.
(06-10-2017, 02:55 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 07:05 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]As to your question, I believe the defense showed improvement despite the coaching because there was a great infusion of talent. Last offseason, the team added Malik Jackson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack (though inexplicably the team didn't play him much), Yannick Ngakoue, Abry Jones developed, Fowler returned, and we managed to get a decent year out of Cyprien. Sometimes a team or part of a team can perform well despite not good coaching (see 90's Eagles under Kotite, 1994-95 Cowboys under Switzer). Consider also the sentiments by Ramsey and others once Bradley was fired about the players not being utilized to their talents. I think given that infusion of talent, improvement on that side of the ball was inevitable, much like there was improvement in the offense after the 2014 draft.
I agree with you that special teams cost us at least 3 games last year, and several games over the course of Bradley's unfortunate tenure.
Ultimately, the negative impact of bad coaching will be much lower than it has been in years past. All three phases of the game should see improvement this year and in the years to come.
Fair enough. The talent on defense was better. I feel like you're cherry picking a bit but I'll leave it alone. We're all forming opinions here based on available info. I happen to firmly believe that the available info clearly points to Blake as the biggest culprit last year, but arguing the point appears to be an exercise in futility. There was a lot of room for improvement in several key areas last year. It just feels like there is an effort by some to rewrite history and sweep as much of that blame away from Blake as possible for whatever reason. Maybe they got a Bortles tattoo or something, who knows.
(06-10-2017, 01:35 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I don't want to continue to let this thread be a "blame game" narrative and lose the topic, but seriously gents:
The coaching cost the team wins last year. Blake cost the team wins last year. The coaching should have been more proactive in mitigating Blake's repeated errors and working to shore up his technique, but he made plenty of straight up boneheaded bad decisions couple with very poor accuracy.
Bottom line: Lots of blame to go 'round here and we don't really have to agree on exactly how it's divvied up.
Now - do you two believe the current roster (assuming Marrone and company are at least a mid tier staff) has enough talent to win 8 games or more in 2017?
The OP started the thread by assigning blame. I think the discussion was on topic though I would have preferred a more civil and rational response from SeldomRite. It's the internet though so it comes with the territory.
I do think Bortles could win 8 or more games with this roster. I also think he could be the reason we don't if he doesn't progress.
What?
With the players on the squad the potential is there but as we all know by now its takes more than just talent. On paper i'd put our roster in the top 20 with newest additions. But we need to hope players like Bouye, Campbell, Albert and Fournette come in and play at expected level. Nothing is certain on that.
Just need Bortles to do his job
(06-10-2017, 09:27 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 07:05 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I saw your rankings and noticed something interesting.
Many people maintain ultimate team success boils down to the QB and talent should be considered and weighted accordingly.
But then I look at the teams listed below the Jaguars in your rankings above. There are several teams nearly above and below the Jaguars that seemingly have better QB situations than we do.
The Saints have Drew Brees, Skins have Cousins, Ravens have Flacco, Eagles have Wentz, Colts have Luck, Bolts have Rivers and Bengals have Dalton. Most, if not all of these guys would be presumed by most observers to be better than Bortles.
Do you think the Jaguars will have a better record than these teams? If these other teams listed show them with better QBs than Bortles, does the Jaguars rankings above these teams indicate favorably disparate talent at every other position for the Jaguars?
The obvious response is that the Jags would be ranked much higher with any of those QBs.
I'm not as down on Bortles as some people here. Whatever one wants to complain about him, he shattered the team record for TD passes in 2015. Brunell never had more than 20 even with Smith and McCardell. A player can be as good as his highlights, it's just a matter of consistency.
About your prior response on defense, getting rid of Babich was a big plus along with the players you mentioned (and Amukamara). I'm not sold on Wash, and I really wish the team had gotten rid of more of Bradley's crony coaching group.
At least the change in culture should prevent the existing players from going into cruise control mode like they did under Bradley.
Indeed the Jaguars are rather stocked with talent outside the QB position, however, I'm not overlooking what Blake did in 2015, and I'm not conceding that all those QBs are better. Luck is certainly much better, for example, but the Colts roster in parts is devoid of talent. Wentz is young and still needs to prove he's consistent before I rank him over Blake, and I flat out put Blake over Cousins and Dalton.
I think average to slightly above average is accurate. Way above average overall defensively, a bit below average offensively including the most important position.
(06-10-2017, 01:35 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I don't want to continue to let this thread be a "blame game" narrative and lose the topic, but seriously gents:
The coaching cost the team wins last year. Blake cost the team wins last year. The coaching should have been more proactive in mitigating Blake's repeated errors and working to shore up his technique, but he made plenty of straight up boneheaded bad decisions couple with very poor accuracy.
Bottom line: Lots of blame to go 'round here and we don't really have to agree on exactly how it's divvied up.
Now - do you two believe the current roster (assuming Marrone and company are at least a mid tier staff) has enough talent to win 8 games or more in 2017?
The OP started the thread by assigning blame. I think the discussion was on topic though I would have preferred a more civil and rational response from SeldomRite. It's the internet though so it comes with the territory.
I do think Bortles could win 8 or more games with this roster. I also think he could be the reason we don't if he doesn't progress.
[/quote]
Yeah - my bad - I forgot that coaching comment in the OP when I posted that. ^
And I agree on the QB situation.
(06-09-2017, 06:22 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]There is nothing sadder than wasted potential.
Maybe... Watching it sober?
This team takes world class athletes and makes them mediocre. I really really hope the front office changes bring a revolution.
Saw a mock for 2018 draft...had us picking 12th. So, top 20.
(06-10-2017, 06:19 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2017, 10:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]
Ok then.
If understanding that football is a team sport and that there was much more wrong with the team last season than just Blake playing like an average non franchise QB is giving him a pass then okay, anyone sane must be giving him a pass right now.
Calling Bortles average last year sounds like giving him a pass to me. He was terrible most of the year and he's the main reason I have difficulty looking at this upcoming season with anything but skepticism. I hope he takes a big step forward, but until I see it, I just can't get all that excited.
(06-29-2017, 12:45 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 06:19 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]If understanding that football is a team sport and that there was much more wrong with the team last season than just Blake playing like an average non franchise QB is giving him a pass then okay, anyone sane must be giving him a pass right now.
Calling Bortles average last year sounds like giving him a pass to me. He was terrible most of the year and he's the main reason I have difficulty looking at this upcoming season with anything but skepticism. I hope he takes a big step forward, but until I see it, I just can't get all that excited.
I'm calling him average the past year because that's what the stats said he was. I know we have a lot of out of whack expectations of what an NFL QB is because they watch Tom Brady play every week, but Bortles wasn't as bad as some around here seem to think, taken on his own. It takes a team effort to be as bad as the Jaguars were last year.
I'd like for Bortles to be much better, and I think he can be, but I'm not one of the bib brigade that thinks Bortles was the problem all on his own.
(06-29-2017, 12:54 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (06-29-2017, 12:45 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]Calling Bortles average last year sounds like giving him a pass to me. He was terrible most of the year and he's the main reason I have difficulty looking at this upcoming season with anything but skepticism. I hope he takes a big step forward, but until I see it, I just can't get all that excited.
I'm calling him average the past year because that's what the stats said he was. I know we have a lot of out of whack expectations of what an NFL QB is because they watch Tom Brady play every week, but Bortles wasn't as bad as some around here seem to think, taken on his own. It takes a team effort to be as bad as the Jaguars were last year.
I'd like for Bortles to be much better, and I think he can be, but I'm not one of the bib brigade that thinks Bortles was the problem all on his own.
I agree actually. Bortles seemed so bad because when he did make mistakes he didn't just look bad, he looked Worst-QB-In-NFL-History bad. That tended to overshadow the fact that he was actually pretty productive over the past two years. People seem to dismiss this as merely garbage time stat padding but actually the Jags weren't typically in garbage time much last year. We'll see if he can eliminate those horrific mistakes which will make all the difference in the perception of his ability.
(06-30-2017, 05:06 PM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-29-2017, 12:54 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]I'm calling him average the past year because that's what the stats said he was. I know we have a lot of out of whack expectations of what an NFL QB is because they watch Tom Brady play every week, but Bortles wasn't as bad as some around here seem to think, taken on his own. It takes a team effort to be as bad as the Jaguars were last year.
I'd like for Bortles to be much better, and I think he can be, but I'm not one of the bib brigade that thinks Bortles was the problem all on his own.
I agree actually. Bortles seemed so bad because when he did make mistakes he didn't just look bad, he looked Worst-QB-In-NFL-History bad. That tended to overshadow the fact that he was actually pretty productive over the past two years. People seem to dismiss this as merely garbage time stat padding but actually the Jags weren't typically in garbage time much last year. We'll see if he can eliminate those horrific mistakes which will make all the difference in the perception of his ability.
He had a run of poor performances against great defenses in the middle part of the season, but he was good enough to win in more than just three games.
I've heaped a lot of blame on Gus because horrific mistakes were pretty systemic throughout the whole team, and I think there's plenty of room for tightening up easily.
Just taking the low hanging fruit (eliminate the really stupid penalties and cut down on fumbles) and this team should win six or seven games. And if Bortles is more like his 2015 self then eight wins should be in reach. If Marrone is actually a good coach and he doesn't just tighten up on the plethora of mental mistakes but actually coaches guys up and schemes well then the team has the talent for ten-plus wins.
(06-30-2017, 05:57 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2017, 05:06 PM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree actually. Bortles seemed so bad because when he did make mistakes he didn't just look bad, he looked Worst-QB-In-NFL-History bad. That tended to overshadow the fact that he was actually pretty productive over the past two years. People seem to dismiss this as merely garbage time stat padding but actually the Jags weren't typically in garbage time much last year. We'll see if he can eliminate those horrific mistakes which will make all the difference in the perception of his ability.
He had a run of poor performances against great defenses in the middle part of the season, but he was good enough to win in more than just three games.
I've heaped a lot of blame on Gus because horrific mistakes were pretty systemic throughout the whole team, and I think there's plenty of room for tightening up easily.
Just taking the low hanging fruit (eliminate the really stupid penalties and cut down on fumbles) and this team should win six or seven games. And if Bortles is more like his 2015 self then eight wins should be in reach. If Marrone is actually a good coach and he doesn't just tighten up on the plethora of mental mistakes but actually coaches guys up and schemes well then the team has the talent for ten-plus wins.
I don't buy into the garbage time stat argument that some people try to throw out there. If that were a legitimate reason, then every bad team's QB should be throwing 35 TDs and that just doesn't happen.
Bortles had a rough season last year, but it's been way over blown by some in the media who refer to it as historically bad. I mean the QB we drafted right before Bortles had far more inept seasons than Bortles ever had.
Bortles definitely needs to clean up his game, but that is the enigma about him. He will make an awful throw or a head scratching decision then turn around and make some plays that make your jaw drop.
It's those flashes that he keeps showing that keeps me intrigued, but he has to clean up his game if this team is going to take it to the next level and the exact same thing can be said for every other aspect of the team.
Bortles wasn't the only one to make mistakes in clutch situations. The running game, defense, and special teams all made critical mistakes that gave away games we should have won.
Until we get a QB, we won't be very good.
(06-09-2017, 06:57 PM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]I think the talent was way better than the 3-13 record we got last year. Whether the talent is actually top 10, I'm not so sure. They have to proof it first.
Sorry about chiming in late, but I think the last two games of the season after Gus was fired and Blake was essentially a new QB epitomized the coaching...
(07-01-2017, 02:50 AM)archer56 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2017, 06:57 PM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]I think the talent was way better than the 3-13 record we got last year. Whether the talent is actually top 10, I'm not so sure. They have to proof it first.
Sorry about chiming in late, but I think the last two games of the season after Gus was fired and Blake was essentially a new QB epitomized the coaching...
Yep.
(06-30-2017, 08:52 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]I don't buy into the garbage time stat argument that some people try to throw out there. If that were a legitimate reason, then every bad team's QB should be throwing 35 TDs and that just doesn't happen.
This past season Bortles actually did throw quite a bit during garbage time situations, but there are some on this board that try to suggest the same thing was true in 2015, and that's just not accurate. Bortles was on fire in 2015, and for the most part his stats were in clutch situations with the team often oh so close to winning. There was very little garbage tiime in 2015 as Blake consistently played well enough to win games, but the defense just kept choking. I swear if we had the current defense back then, we very well might have made the Playoffs.
While I don't think Bortles was "on fire" for any extended stretch of time in 2015, I do agree with much of the sentiment put forth in the past several posts about his being overly demonized at times. He's shown potential worthy of one more season's evaluation. (Or a least a stretch of games.)
The thing that I feel like is getting glossed over right now by the optimistic crowd here is just how horribly inconsistent his accuracy was in both of the last two seasons. Clearly he was inaccurate in 2016 more often than the prior year. But a solid percentage of his positive production (in both seasons) came from his receivers bailing him out of bad throws. I'm not as quick to dismiss that stuff as some here apparently. It's GOT to get better.
I do believe Hackett and Marrone have a plan. I do think they will mitigate his mistakes, and I do believe he'll improve his technique and accuracy to some degree. But I'm not ready to gloss over his 2016 performance as "not that bad." It was pretty darn bad, my friends. If he reverts to anything like that again for any stretch of 2017, I'm ready to move on.