Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Shack was horrible, but the turning point was Gene Smith. Shack atleast picked some great players. Gene whiffed on ALL of his picks. This was the point when Wayne Weaver wanted to sell the team anyway. Everyone was checked out except the fans.

(07-12-2017, 03:47 PM)CSO14 Wrote: [ -> ]Shack was horrible, but the turning point was Gene Smith.  Shack atleast picked some great players.  Gene whiffed on ALL of his picks.  This was the point when Wayne Weaver wanted to sell the team anyway.  Everyone was checked out except the fans.

Actually, Shack was perhaps our best GM aside from maybe Caldwell, and that would make for a good debate. Granted Shack had a ton of absolute busts, but he was a hit or miss guy. When his missed, he missed big... but when he hit, he hit big. His second round selections, in particular, fielded some of the best players in team history.

Conversely, Gene was a safe picker. He was good at selecting players who were capable of competing in this league, but that was his tease. The thing is, he failed miserably when it comes to finding those great players that transcend teams. Instead, we'd see Alualu or a franchise-killing trade up like Derek Harvey or Blaine Gabbert. The one time he did take a risk for a great player he got Justin Blackmon. Granted he could have been the greatest, but... you know the rest.

 

(07-11-2017, 02:37 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]You either got it or you dont. Don't blame coaching. Ramsey and Arob (in 2015) had the same coach and they did good. Bortles just ain't good.

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If you don't think coaching was a substantial part of the problem in 2015/2016 then you haven't been paying attention. 

Of course Bortles was part of the problem too. There is literally only one person on this board saying otherwise, and it sure as hell a'int me. 

BB5 gets 2017.  If he can't limit the turnovers and improve the accuracy, then he's gone.  We'll know with a lot more certainty about his future by November.

(07-10-2017, 07:31 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2017, 05:55 AM)TealHammer Wrote: [ -> ]The turning point was after the 2010 season, specicifically the switch from Garrard to Gabbert.

We have not had legitimately good QB play since then. (The 2015 season ws Bortles throwing for 300+ yards when we were down 21 points.). And that's the main reason 2011-2016 has been such an awful stretch of football.

How many games where bortles threw for 300 yds when down by 21 pts? If it didn't happen often then stop downgrading blake bortles year because statistically blake bortles 2015 year was better than anything garrard has done. Please save me the garrard won games arguments because he had a better team and structure coaching wise around him at the time and they won alot of games despite of him not because he put the team on his back and won games. To future make my point think of how many people on Garrards coaching staff have been or currently are head coaches. Del Rio, Koetter, Lynn, and Mike Smith. Blake on the other hand coaching staff during his tenure as a starter were Gus Bradley Homeboys so you all figure it out. lol.

Garrards best seasons are better than Blakes best, even without the yards. Garrard absolutely did know how to win games, and he was talented at getting third downs when we needed it (something Blake is not). Also he was immensely more accurate. Was he a true franchise Qb? No not really. But he was an guy you could win with. His back injury really sent us into the dark ages. If he had been able to start 2011, with MJD winning the rushing title, we might have got into the playoffs again. It would have given us another year of Gene, but we also would have never gotten Bradley. Maybe even Gabbert would have been better with that year to develop. 2011 is what did us in. We had the D, we had the Rushing game, and our QB play took such a jump backwards we didn't get the opportunity we should have.

(07-12-2017, 08:37 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2017, 02:37 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]You either got it or you dont. Don't blame coaching. Ramsey and Arob (in 2015) had the same coach and they did good. Bortles just ain't good.

...

If you don't think coaching was a substantial part of the problem in 2015/2016 then you haven't been paying attention. 

Of course Bortles was part of the problem too. There is literally only one person on this board saying otherwise, and it sure as hell a'int me. 

BB5 gets 2017.  If he can't limit the turnovers and improve the accuracy, then he's gone.  We'll know with a lot more certainty about his future by November.

If you going to mention me in directly please tell the truth because I hate being misrepresented on here. Blake is partially at fault for some things that has gone wrong the last three years. His decision making has to improve and if it don't he will be replaced at this team qb and I'm fine with it. However, he was under developed by his coaching staff, the running back situation during his tenure was embarrassing at best and his wide receivers are not blameless in last year's collapse and yet a lot of y'all want to give everyone else a pass and put everything on Blake which is not right. Do I go out my way to defend him yes I do because some of you go out your way to blame and Bash him as if y'all lost your mortgage because you made bets on Jaguar games. Bottom line is the truth is in the middle and when the haters of Blake are willing to be objective I'll be more than happy to do the same thing. My true love is for the team itself and not one person as much as I appreciate Blake don't go above my love for the team overall believe it.

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(07-13-2017, 02:54 AM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2017, 07:31 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]How many games where bortles threw for 300 yds when down by 21 pts? If it didn't happen often then stop downgrading blake bortles year because statistically blake bortles 2015 year was better than anything garrard has done. Please save me the garrard won games arguments because he had a better team and structure coaching wise around him at the time and they won alot of games despite of him not because he put the team on his back and won games. To future make my point think of how many people on Garrards coaching staff have been or currently are head coaches. Del Rio, Koetter, Lynn, and Mike Smith. Blake on the other hand coaching staff during his tenure as a starter were Gus Bradley Homeboys so you all figure it out. lol.

Garrards best seasons are better than Blakes best, even without the yards. Garrard absolutely did know how to win games, and he was talented at getting third downs when we needed it (something Blake is not). Also he was immensely more accurate. Was he a true franchise Qb? No not really. But he was an guy you could win with. His back injury really sent us into the dark ages. If he had been able to start 2011, with MJD winning the rushing title, we might have got into the playoffs again. It would have given us another year of Gene, but we also would have never gotten Bradley. Maybe even Gabbert would have been better with that year to develop. 2011 is what did us in. We had the D, we had the Rushing game, and our QB play took such a jump backwards we didn't get the opportunity we should have.

Let me first say I appreciate your post and I'm going to give you another perspective on it. Yes garrard won more games during his tenure than Blake but there are many reasons behind it. They never ask David to win games because he had not only one but two great running backs on his roster in addition to a great defense. David Garrard only job was to get the occasional 3rd down instead of carrying the whole team on his back. If anything I can say we underachieved with him because he had a lot around here including a great coaching staff which 4 those coaches became head coaches in the NFL. ( Del Rio, koetter, Mike Smith, and Anthony Lynn). 

As far as David Garrard being more accurate than Blake is misleading as well because the route tree they made his receivers run was limited compared to other quarterbacks in the league. The main routes that David Garrard receivers ran was slants, hitch routes, screens and see occasional seam route. Ask yourself this question how many default do you remember David throwing  and completing during his tenure as a QB and that right there should tell you all you need to know about what they ask from him. They they make Blake and wide receivers to perform every route tree and that's why some of Blake's mistakes are more glaring because of his timing can be off on some of them throws especially with his mechanics are not perfectly sound. Despite all of that I explained David career completion percentage is 60 and Blakes 59 percent which is it that big of a gap


David decision-making was better but that's where coaching come into play in that situation. Think about this for a second he was require of being a full-time starter until year six of his career so yeah the opportunity to sit back and truly develop physically and emotionally as a QB help this situation compared to Blake who was thrown in the fire right away when he was clearly not ready for it. David gararard receivers was trash compared to Blakes but it was easier to game plan for Blake than him because of teams knowing that Blake had the Pass based on no running game at all.

Bottom line is I respect and appreciate everything you said on your post so I just want to give you my feedback based on observation I witness over the years with the same franchise.

The turning point was the first game of the 2008 season. Within the first 5 minutes we last our interior offensive line and we have never recovered. Although he was heavily criticized David Garrard (and Drew) carried the team that year. Year after year we tried to rebuild the team without addressing the offensive line. Changing quarterbacks and coaches have accomplished nothing. Maybe Tom can fix things once and for all...

The Turning Point:

Gene Smith is Hired as Jags GM

Gene Smith's hiring was when it all started going downhill. Gene was a bad GM who not only fell in love with players, but traded up for them at bad prices. He traded a 2nd round and 7th round pick for a 3rd round pick. He traded up to get Blaine Gabbert. He took Alualu in the Top 10. He took a punter in the third round. The man hired Mike Mularkey. He pretty much removed all the talent from the team, and left them with less than table scraps. After that, the Jags really started dropping fast.

To put all of this into perspective--as much as we all hate Shack's trade up in the 1st round his last year here... Shack essentially gave up less to get Derrick Harvey than Gene Smith did to get Derek Cox. And if you really want to rub salt on the wound, he gave up a lot less than Gene Smith did to trade up to get Blaine Gabbert. AND he only moved up fewer spots. And don't give me the ol' "QB available' stuff because Joe Flacco was available when we took Derrick Harvey, and I think we'd all be very happy with Flacco today.

(07-16-2017, 01:11 PM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ]The Turning Point:

Gene Smith is Hired as Jags GM

Gene Smith's hiring was when it all started going downhill.  Gene was a bad GM who not only fell in love with players, but traded up for them at bad prices.  He traded a 2nd round and 7th round pick for a 3rd round pick.  He traded up to get Blaine Gabbert.  He took Alualu in the Top 10.  He took a punter in the third round.  The man hired Mike Mularkey.  He pretty much removed all the talent from the team, and left them with less than table scraps.  After that, the Jags really started dropping fast.  

To put all of this into perspective--as much as we all hate Shack's trade up in the 1st round his last year here... Shack essentially gave up less to get Derrick Harvey than Gene Smith did to get Derek Cox.  And if you really want to rub salt on the wound, he gave up a lot less than Gene Smith did to trade up to get Blaine Gabbert.  AND he only moved up fewer spots.  And don't give me the ol' "QB available' stuff because Joe Flacco was available when we took Derrick Harvey, and I think we'd all be very happy with Flacco today.

Good point about the Harvey pick. While Harvey was an absolute garbage selection at the spot, Shack at least gave up very little compared to typical drafts for how much he was able to move up. The move up itself was quite a steal in terms of draft value, but the joke becomes that he wasted all that value by selecting Derek. What in the world did Shack see in Harvey that he had to have him?

(07-16-2017, 06:51 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2017, 01:11 PM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ]The Turning Point:

Gene Smith is Hired as Jags GM

Gene Smith's hiring was when it all started going downhill.  Gene was a bad GM who not only fell in love with players, but traded up for them at bad prices.  He traded a 2nd round and 7th round pick for a 3rd round pick.  He traded up to get Blaine Gabbert.  He took Alualu in the Top 10.  He took a punter in the third round.  The man hired Mike Mularkey.  He pretty much removed all the talent from the team, and left them with less than table scraps.  After that, the Jags really started dropping fast.  

To put all of this into perspective--as much as we all hate Shack's trade up in the 1st round his last year here... Shack essentially gave up less to get Derrick Harvey than Gene Smith did to get Derek Cox.  And if you really want to rub salt on the wound, he gave up a lot less than Gene Smith did to trade up to get Blaine Gabbert.  AND he only moved up fewer spots.  And don't give me the ol' "QB available' stuff because Joe Flacco was available when we took Derrick Harvey, and I think we'd all be very happy with Flacco today.

Good point about the Harvey pick. While Harvey was an absolute garbage selection at the spot, Shack at least gave up very little compared to typical drafts for how much he was able to move up. The move up itself was quite a steal in terms of draft value, but the joke becomes that he wasted all that value by selecting Derek. What in the world did Shack see in Harvey that he had to have him?

He saw the position he played, which is why needs based drafting is such a bad idea. Why draft a bad player to fill a roster spot when you could just sign some trash off the street to just fill a spot.

(07-11-2017, 02:37 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]You either got it or you dont. Don't blame coaching. Ramsey and Arob (in 2015) had the same coach and they did good. Bortles just ain't good.

You can't be this stupid. Coaching has everything to do with how well a team performs. Players don't do the game planning for their opponents, COACHES do. Players don't instill discipline, COACHES do. Players don't call the plays, COACHES do. Players can't correct technique problems by themselves, COACHES can.

In 2016, the offense, as well as special teams, shares in the blame for the terrible season, but terrible coaching was the root of the problem. Not running the ball nearly at all allows defenses to simply go to a nickel and dime defense and wait for Bortles to try too hard to make a play (Steve Young himself has said that not having a running game can cause serious problems for an offense).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bortles' problem is that he tries too hard to make plays and results in INTs. He's got to learn to trust his teammates and coaching staff, but some of his teammates need to actually show up and play (looking at YOU T.J. Weldon) and his coaching staff needs to be smart with their play calling (hope you're paying attention, Mr. Marrone). Special teams....dear Lord, they were just flat out AWFUL. In at least 7 games, they either turned the ball over or allowed a return for a TD. In a year where we lost 8 games by 7 or less points, that's a season killer.

(07-16-2017, 08:34 PM)jrvegeeta Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2017, 02:37 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]You either got it or you dont. Don't blame coaching. Ramsey and Arob (in 2015) had the same coach and they did good. Bortles just ain't good.

You can't be this stupid. Coaching has everything to do with how well a team performs. Players don't do the game planning for their opponents, COACHES do. Players don't instill discipline, COACHES do. Players don't call the plays, COACHES do. Players can't correct technique problems by themselves, COACHES can.

In 2016, the offense, as well as special teams, shares in the blame for the terrible season, but terrible coaching was the root of the problem. Not running the ball nearly at all allows defenses to simply go to a nickel and dime defense and wait for Bortles to try too hard to make a play (Steve Young himself has said that not having a running game can cause serious problems for an offense).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bortles' problem is that he tries too hard to make plays and results in INTs. He's got to learn to trust his teammates and coaching staff, but some of his teammates need to actually show up and play (looking at YOU T.J. Weldon) and his coaching staff needs to be smart with their play calling (hope you're paying attention, Mr. Marrone). Special teams....dear Lord, they were just flat out AWFUL. In at least 7 games, they either turned the ball over or allowed a return for a TD. In a year where we lost 8 games by 7 or less points, that's a season killer.

Normally, I'm not a person to judge someone's intellect but based on his previous post over the years I can't blame you for feeling that way. I agree with everything you said on your post on the coaching aspect and I'm glad that someone gets that coaching matters big time in this league.