Quote:<BANG> You're dead.
Just answer the question. We have established all the possibilities in the world are on the table. What does logic tell you is more likely?
Are you incapable of even admitting what you believe is true? No diatribes about due process. Your life depends on it. "I don't know" is not an option. Gun to your head. Do you think he inappropriately touched at least one of the dozen women who have accused him? A simple yes or no.
Logic tells me "I don't know" is an appropriate answer when we don't know all the facts needed to make a proper and fair judgement.
I know it doesn't fit in what what your trying to do here but that's my answer even though I don't have a high regard for Trump as a fellow man. My opinion will probably change if we ever see or hear any concrete evidence regarding these accusations. I'll let you know when that happens.
<BANG> <BANG> Double tap to the head.
You're allowed to not know. You're allowed to withhold final judgment until more facts are made known. What do you believe is more likely? Just answer the question using everything you do know about the accusations and the man being accused. Part of independent thought is being able to say what you think. So... what do you think is true?
Quote:<BANG> <BANG> Double tap to the head.
You're allowed to not know. You're allowed to withhold final judgment until more facts are made known. What do you believe is more likely? Just answer the question using everything you do know about the accusations and the man being accused. Part of independent thought is being able to say what you think. So... what do you think is true?
I don't know if Trump is guilty of the accusations against him.
"Part of independent thought is being able to say what you think."
I'm telling you what I think it just doesn't fit in with what your attempting to do.
Once again we go back to the crux of the entire issue. Me explaining to you that you cannot objectively judge a man guilty if you have zero concrete evidence to back up the claim. This is what the entire debate has been about and you are still completely unable to process how that works.
Once again a classic Kotite performance in debate.
You can't even say what you think is true when I preface it by saying it's okay to not know or to change your mind later? You won't even say what your opinion of the situation is?
If a guy with a known drinking problem walks away from an accident he caused smelling of alcohol, would you also withhold forming an opinion on whether or not he was driving under the influence if he refused to take a breathalyzer test at the scene?
I have said in many ways, I am not a court judging Trump guilty. I am a person looking at all the pieces of the puzzle and coming to a conclusion on what I believe is most likely the truth.
What do we know about Trump? He is a narcissist. A pathological liar. A misogynist. Was accused of marital rape by his ex. Is unapologetic in all facets of his life. Acts like the rules do not apply to him. Has said (hyperbole or not) he can't control himself and takes tic tacs before forcing himself on women he finds attractive and he believes they let him because of his star power. Has said very flattering things about Jeffrey Epstein including "he likes women about as young as I do." Took the 5th Amendment over 50 times to avoid violating his prenuptial agreement and having to pay off his ex-wife. Has been proven to be a very "handsy" guy with women he has just met on countless videos. Trump insulted accusers in his typical, "better than you" fashion. (Is any of this untrue?)
What do we know about the accusers? There are about a dozen of them. I believe only one is seeking money from Trump. They do not seem to know each other. The accusations span a lengthy time frame and come from various places in the country. Their accusations seem to match a similar pattern as Trump himself described. There are others who have corroborated being made aware of the accusations well before Trump ran for office. The fly in the ointment for many is the timing of the accusations. I have read who these women are from reporters to escorts to make up artists to beauty pageant contestants and what they are alleging.
Looking at all of the things I know, absent a smoking gun, I can assess..
Does it fit the profile of the man? Absolutely. It's not like he's Nelson Mandela. Did he have opportunity? Yes. Did he have motivation? He says he can't control himself (hyperbole or not) and is on his third marriage because he has infidelity issues. He does what he wants and even his closest allies and confidants have no ability to control, temper or influence him. Is it possible an accuser is lying? Absolutely. It is not as common for women to make up accusations, but it absolutely happens. Is it possible a dozen women are lying? Technically it is, but it is highly unlikely. What percentage of accusations of sexual assault or rape do you think are made by women who are simply making it up? 1 in 10? 1 in 3? Even if you believe HALF of the women who accuse men of improper touching are making it up, you can apply that logic to flipping a coin. The odds of flipping a coin 12 times and coming up with heads each time is: 0.001953125. So is it possible a dozen women are making it up and Trump, who fits the profile, is innocent of inappropriately touching at the very least ONE of the women accusing him? Sure. Am I using common sense to come to a conclusion that leads me to believe he more than likely DID touch at least one of these women inappropriately? Yes. Is there definitive evidence? Not yet. The nature of the crime is significantly less easy to prove than murdering them with a claw hammer. Am I slamming the table saying he needs to be jailed today? No. Applying basic common sense, assessing all of the details and taking half a second to ask yourself what is most likely, objectively, will lead you to the same MOST LIKELY conclusion. You refuse to even state what you think. You won't even admit what you feel is most likely the truth. You just want to sit on a fence and feel righteous.
Quote:One woman twelve guys. Twelve women one guy. The law of averages says at least one of them is telling the truth.
So, if I didn't like someone and I wanted you to believe they were guilty, all I'd have to do is round up 12 people to accuse that individual of anything and you'd buy it.
The thing that always bothers me with high profile, high indemnity accusations is the timing. This goes for Bill Cosby as well to a degree, even though he wasn't running for public office.
For the record, I believe Trump probably did some form of groping on some women at some point in his past. This could have been simple inappropriate touching like grabbing an arm, providing a quick neck rub, or a mild slap on the knee. Of course, it could have been full-bore, hardcore gropage too. If it was the latter, why would someone wait for years before reporting it? Maybe they initially enjoyed it or invited it, then years later convinced themselves that they were abused. Maybe all these women are being paid or coerced into giving false testimony. That's what trials are for, right? Everyone is due their day in court.
Sure.. but you can at least admit you think he did some form of groping. Congratulations. You have the ability to use common sense.
Quote:Sure.. but you can at least admit you think he did some form of groping. Congratulations. You have the ability to use common sense.
Most people on here who have a brain
knows he's not innocent of groping and other such things. The man has said as much himself. The issue most people have is the TIMING of all of these women coming forward with their stories. It's suspect and even you know it but for some reason you want to ride this merry-go-round into the ground.
Quote:Most people on here who have a brain knows he's not innocent of groping and other such things. The man has said as much himself. The issue most people have is the TIMING of all of these women coming forward with their stories. It's suspect and even you know it but for some reason you want to ride this merry-go-round into the ground.
I totally get the skepticism around the timing of many of the allegations. Doesn't make it not true. Hardly the first time someone has come forward with allegations long after the fact. Sadly, the treatment of such cases where there is a 'delayed reaction' to an alleged attack is consistent regardless of who is accused. And thank you for admitting common sense for anyone with a brain points to him not being completely innocent. Not everyone in this thread is willing to admit that.
Quote:I totally get the skepticism around the timing of many of the allegations. Doesn't make it not true. Hardly the first time someone has come forward with allegations long after the fact. Sadly, the treatment of such cases where there is a 'delayed reaction' to an alleged attack is consistent regardless of who is accused. And thank you for admitting common sense for anyone with a brain points to him not being completely innocent. Not everyone in this thread is willing to admit that.
True statement but to come out and do so to blatantly influence an election is not right. As someone who has suffered at the hands of inappropriate behavior that I will not go into detail about, it's a slap in the face that these women are trotted out front and center of a presidential race, whether of their own volition or because they were coerced. It doesn't matter if they are true victims or not if their intentions are to inflict damage to a candidate on a world stage. It is a private matter that should be dealt with in the legal system. If they're doing it to show how much of a cad Trump is, there is no need. He does a fine job of that all by himself.
When you're a victim of circumstances such as these you don't proclaim it to the world in the media. The only reason Jaycee Duggard, Elizabeth Smart and others like them talked about their horrific circumstances on national television was because their stories where already told by the police investigations and endless media reports. They wanted to tell their
real stories.
Quote:You can't even say what you think is true when I preface it by saying it's okay to not know or to change your mind later? You won't even say what your opinion of the situation is?
If a guy with a known drinking problem walks away from an accident he caused smelling of alcohol, would you also withhold forming an opinion on whether or not he was driving under the influence if he refused to take a breathalyzer test at the scene?
I have said in many ways, I am not a court judging Trump guilty. I am a person looking at all the pieces of the puzzle and coming to a conclusion on what I believe is most likely the truth.
What do we know about Trump? He is a narcissist. A pathological liar. A misogynist. Was accused of marital rape by his ex. Is unapologetic in all facets of his life. Acts like the rules do not apply to him. Has said (hyperbole or not) he can't control himself and takes tic tacs before forcing himself on women he finds attractive and he believes they let him because of his star power. Has said very flattering things about Jeffrey Epstein including "he likes women about as young as I do." Took the 5th Amendment over 50 times to avoid violating his prenuptial agreement and having to pay off his ex-wife. Has been proven to be a very "handsy" guy with women he has just met on countless videos. Trump insulted accusers in his typical, "better than you" fashion. (Is any of this untrue?)
What do we know about the accusers? There are about a dozen of them. I believe only one is seeking money from Trump. They do not seem to know each other. The accusations span a lengthy time frame and come from various places in the country. Their accusations seem to match a similar pattern as Trump himself described. There are others who have corroborated being made aware of the accusations well before Trump ran for office. The fly in the ointment for many is the timing of the accusations. I have read who these women are from reporters to escorts to make up artists to beauty pageant contestants and what they are alleging.
Looking at all of the things I know, absent a smoking gun, I can assess..
Does it fit the profile of the man? Absolutely. It's not like he's Nelson Mandela. Did he have opportunity? Yes. Did he have motivation? He says he can't control himself (hyperbole or not) and is on his third marriage because he has infidelity issues. He does what he wants and even his closest allies and confidants have no ability to control, temper or influence him. Is it possible an accuser is lying? Absolutely. It is not as common for women to make up accusations, but it absolutely happens. Is it possible a dozen women are lying? Technically it is, but it is highly unlikely. What percentage of accusations of sexual assault or rape do you think are made by women who are simply making it up? 1 in 10? 1 in 3? Even if you believe HALF of the women who accuse men of improper touching are making it up, you can apply that logic to flipping a coin. The odds of flipping a coin 12 times and coming up with heads each time is: 0.001953125. So is it possible a dozen women are making it up and Trump, who fits the profile, is innocent of inappropriately touching at the very least ONE of the women accusing him? Sure. Am I using common sense to come to a conclusion that leads me to believe he more than likely DID touch at least one of these women inappropriately? Yes. Is there definitive evidence? Not yet. The nature of the crime is significantly less easy to prove than murdering them with a claw hammer. Am I slamming the table saying he needs to be jailed today? No. Applying basic common sense, assessing all of the details and taking half a second to ask yourself what is most likely, objectively, will lead you to the same MOST LIKELY conclusion. You refuse to even state what you think. You won't even admit what you feel is most likely the truth. You just want to sit on a fence and feel righteous.
Thank you Kotite. We can now bring this debate full circle.
"Based on the logic of this message board, I assume people will say all of the other coeds who allege this guy attacked, groped or molested them in some way are making it up."
We can now see that every case is different and that you can't judge a man guilty without any concrete evidence. Sure you can believe one is more likely than the other but you can't definitely say whether he is guilty or innocent. This is why Trump fans may not 100% believe the accusations and may be skeptical until there is real evidence to prove anything. I had to be stubborn to get you to see the other side of things but now you have I guess.
I can stop playing the devils advocate now So yeah I feel he is innocent until evidence proves that he is not.
You have laid out the "until evidence proves.." line a dozen time. To clarify.. your BELIEF is that he did not touch any of the women accusing him inappropriately at all? Is that what you're saying? Not what you know. What you think. You don't suspect he touched anyone or forced himself upon anyone in a non consensual way?
Fitting that this case was dropped yet again on the same day a journalist was found criminally liable for lying about a similar story.
Quote:You have laid out the "until evidence proves.." line a dozen time. To clarify.. your BELIEF is that he did not touch any of the women accusing him inappropriately at all? Is that what you're saying? Not what you know. What you think. You don't suspect he touched anyone or forced himself upon anyone in a non consensual way?
That's because that's what this entire debate as been about. That you can't judge somebody guilty until concrete evidence proves it. You have been disputing that.
As I have said, its entirely possible he groped someone. Its also entirely possible that these are all fabricated tales to throw his campaign off course or to get money from him. He's innocent in my eyes until I see anything that proves he is not.
Quote:That's because that's what this entire debate as been about. That you can't judge somebody guilty until concrete evidence proves it. You have been disputing that.
As I have said, its entirely possible he groped someone. Its also entirely possible that these are all fabricated tales to throw his campaign off course or to get money from him. He's innocent in my eyes until I see anything that proves he is not.
Still being vague in responding to the question. As I have said, the question is not about assigning innocence or guilt, but your responses keeps going back to this innocent/guilty designation. I am simply asking what you think is most likely. Do you think he most likely touched a person inappropriately?
I fully understand YOU DON'T KNOW. I don't KNOW either. If you're saying no, I do not think he MOST LIKELY touched a person inappropriately, own it by being clear in that response. If you're saying you DO think he MOST LIKELY touched at least one woman inappropriately, it does not mean anything you have said with respect to not knowing, not having proof, etc. is undone or negated. I just don't see why you are so resistant to stating what you believe.
Quote:Still being vague in responding to the question. As I have said, the question is not about assigning innocence or guilt, but your responses keeps going back to this innocent/guilty designation. I am simply asking what you think is most likely. Do you think he most likely touched a person inappropriately?
I fully understand YOU DON'T KNOW. I don't KNOW either. If you're saying no, I do not think he MOST LIKELY touched a person inappropriately, own it by being clear in that response. If you're saying you DO think he MOST LIKELY touched at least one woman inappropriately, it does not mean anything you have said with respect to not knowing, not having proof, etc. is undone or negated. I just don't see why you are so resistant to stating what you believe.
So you concede that a man can't be judged innocent or guilty without concrete evidence?
I've already said what I believe. I believe he is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. Accusations are not evidence.
Do you believe in ghosts Kotite?
Quote:So you concede that a man can't be judged innocent or guilty without concrete evidence?
I've already said what I believe. I believe he is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. Accusations are not evidence.
Do you believe in ghosts Kotite?
Has my position been that Trump deserves jail without evidence against him being presented in court of law? I have already given an example of a person being falsely named guilty with due process and no concrete evidence. You are still refusing to answer the question as it is stated and I don't know what trap you think is set that you keep trying to avoid. Accusations are not evidence. Your response is limited to a court of law innocent/guilty verdict. That is not what you believe in the sense of what you suspect the truth to be.
If I were to ask if you think it is most likely true there are other planets in the universe with life forms on it, could you answer that?
What if I asked if you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in the JFK assassination?
Or if it most likely is true that Bigfoot exists?
Feel free to go back through this whole thread if you like, but I don't believe I ever stated he is absolutely guilty of every accusation made against him. I don't believe I ever said we should judge him guilty without evidence or a trial. I have made the case that he most likely acted inappropriately in at least one of these cases and defended why. A couple of others were willing to admit common sense leads that to most likely be the case. You have dug your heels in and absent hard evidence, refuse to voice any opinion on what you believe is most probable. Don't they still teach persuasive writing in school? It's kinda odd to be honest. You have an aversion to stating an opinion. You're an anomaly on this message board.
Quote:Has my position been that Trump deserves jail without evidence against him being presented in court of law? I have already given an example of a person being falsely named guilty with due process and no concrete evidence. You are still refusing to answer the question as it is stated and I don't know what trap you think is set that you keep trying to avoid. Accusations are not evidence. Your response is limited to a court of law innocent/guilty verdict. That is not what you believe in the sense of what you suspect the truth to be.
If I were to ask if you think it is most likely true there are other planets in the universe with life forms on it, could you answer that?
What if I asked if you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in the JFK assassination?
Or if it most likely is true that Bigfoot exists?
Feel free to go back through this whole thread if you like, but I don't believe I ever stated he is absolutely guilty of every accusation made against him. I don't believe I ever said we should judge him guilty without evidence or a trial. I have made the case that he most likely acted inappropriately in at least one of these cases and defended why. A couple of others were willing to admit common sense leads that to most likely be the case. You have dug your heels in and absent hard evidence, refuse to voice any opinion on what you believe is most probable. Don't they still teach persuasive writing in school? It's kinda odd to be honest. You have an aversion to stating an opinion. You're an anomaly on this message board.
We go back to your mission statement here.
"Based on the logic of this message board, I assume people will say all of the other coeds who allege this guy attacked, groped or molested them in some way are making it up."
So again, you agree that Trump shouldn't be judged guilty or innocent without concrete evidence and that there's no reason for Trump fans to assume he is guilty based on the lack of evidence?
I've already stated my opinion you just seem unable to process it. I believe he is innocent as this moment in time.
You forgot to give your opinion on ghosts, do you believe in ghosts?
Quote:.... hmmmm ..... so all it took was dinner at Chipotle and studying at the campus library to get her (and apparently others) back to his apartment?
I used to have to get girls loaded up on pure grain kool-aid mix and then have to buy them a few chili cheese dogs before they'd even consider heading back to my place.
Give us more details on your rape victims.
Quote:We go back to your mission statement here.
"Based on the logic of this message board, I assume people will say all of the other coeds who allege this guy attacked, groped or molested them in some way are making it up."
So again, you agree that Trump shouldn't be judged guilty or innocent without concrete evidence and that there's no reason for Trump fans to assume he is guilty based on the lack of evidence?
I've already stated my opinion you just seem unable to process it. I believe he is innocent as this moment in time.
You forgot to give your opinion on ghosts, do you believe in ghosts?
You are like arguing with a wall sometimes. As I have stated, he shouldn't be judged guilty without evidence. I have never said Trump fans should assume he is guilty based on this lack of evidence. I have made that case that despite a lack of evidence, he is MOST LIKELY guilty of touching at least one of the women who accused him inappropriately and cited reasons why that is what I believe that. It's not that I am unable to process your "opinion," it's that you are deliberately not answering the question as it is posed. You are fixating on what is absolute instead of what you suspect. If this is how you view life, where you cannot form an opinion without absolutes, then you are, as I said an anomaly. (And you would make a terrible detective.)
So I won't be even trying to engage you on this further. You are refusing to answer a question that is based on what you think, not what you can prove, despite the fact others in this thread have shown the capacity to admit he likely did touch at least one woman without consent (you also wouldn't address questions on Oswald, Bigfoot etc.. - since he was found innocent, I'm sure you believe OJ didn't murder anyone either). So I don't feel the need to answer your question on ghosts. You can consider this debate a draw, but I will call it a forfeit.