(05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:23 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]I gave an estimate. It's probably closer to 100%. Your "reports" are clearly lying. The success of a physical barrier in Israel is proof of that.
Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed?
(05-30-2018, 08:41 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed?
We would have one less entangling alliance. Whatever happens to Israel from there is up to Israel, as it should be.
(05-30-2018, 08:50 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 08:41 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed?
We would have one less entangling alliance. Whatever happens to Israel from there is up to Israel, as it should be.
I would agree 100% if the other nations in the Middle East were also not getting aid from outside sources.
(05-30-2018, 08:54 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 08:50 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]We would have one less entangling alliance. Whatever happens to Israel from there is up to Israel, as it should be.
I would agree 100% if the other nations in the Middle East were also not getting aid from outside sources.
I still don't see how that's any more our problem than it would be Israel's problem is Canada and Mexico were ready to start a war with us. If anything, we've made the problem infinitely worse by giving Israel 80 nuclear weapons compared to the 0 possessed by the rest of the Middle East combined.
(05-30-2018, 09:03 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 08:54 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]I would agree 100% if the other nations in the Middle East were also not getting aid from outside sources.
I still don't see how that's any more our problem than it would be Israel's problem is Canada and Mexico were ready to start a war with us. If anything, we've made the problem infinitely worse by giving Israel 80 nuclear weapons compared to the 0 possessed by the rest of the Middle East combined.
I get your point however if you were surrounded by enemies how would you react? The whole issue with Israel is a mess but what is a reasonable solution? I get the sense that a vast majority of the world's population has more compassion for a snell darter than a jew.
(05-30-2018, 07:23 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 05:54 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]Curious where you get that number from. Because I've seen reports showing it won't do much at all.
I gave an estimate. It's probably closer to 100%. Your "reports" are clearly lying. The success of a physical barrier in Israel is proof of that.
So you made it up. Got it.
(05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:23 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]I gave an estimate. It's probably closer to 100%. Your "reports" are clearly lying. The success of a physical barrier in Israel is proof of that.
Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
I agree with you that Israel's wall is a terrible metaphor. The main reasons are that Israel controls both sides of the wall, and they intend to harm commerce between the two sides. We would only have the military on one side of our wall, and we still intend to do a lot of trading and tourism with Mexico.
You didn't need to say more than that. I made these arguments without needlessly criticizing Israel and needlessly starting another argument. You could have as well. This is a thread about walls, not Middle East peace plans.
(05-29-2018, 10:37 PM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ]In what other situation do you support a solution when the problem isn't clearly defined?
I know what a wall is, and I know what Trump wants when he says he will build a wall. The semantics are very clear.
Drugs and illegal aliens now flow freely across an open border. How is the problem not clear to you?
(05-30-2018, 09:08 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 09:03 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]I still don't see how that's any more our problem than it would be Israel's problem is Canada and Mexico were ready to start a war with us. If anything, we've made the problem infinitely worse by giving Israel 80 nuclear weapons compared to the 0 possessed by the rest of the Middle East combined.
I get your point however if you were surrounded by enemies how would you react? The whole issue with Israel is a mess but what is a reasonable solution? I get the sense that a vast majority of the world's population has more compassion for a snell darter than a jew.
I think we should have left the Middle East alone and focused on diplomacy, not puppetry, to maintain a presence there. It's not about compassion. We destabilized an entire region by introducing 80 nuclear weapons to a tiny nation created by men who we would refer to today as terrorists. Without constant US support (and, you know, 80 nukes), that nation would not exist today. It's a breaking point for normalizing relations with the rest of the Middle East.
Given that Israel has the ability to turn everything from Cairo to Karachi into a parking lot, I think they'd do just fine if left to fend for themselves.
(05-30-2018, 09:56 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
I'd expect an armed presence to enforce the wall, but not a shoot on sight policy (and I don't believe Israel has that either).
When we discuss large numbers of people illegally crossing the Mexican border we're essentially talking about a foreign invasion force. Don't you think we should defend our country?
The overwhelming majority of Palestinians trying to get into Israel are not looking for a job.
The overwhelming majority of Mexicans trying to get into the US are not trying to blow up Phoenix.
You're taking two very different groups of people, job-seeking immigrants and virgin-seeking jihadists, and applying the same label to them. Israel has a right to defend its borders however it sees fit. Their method of doing so should not be held up as an example to the US, because we don't have neighbors that would really like "their" country back. Generally speaking, Israeli methods of ensuring national security have no place in a modern society outside of Israel.
(05-30-2018, 09:03 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 08:54 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]I would agree 100% if the other nations in the Middle East were also not getting aid from outside sources.
I still don't see how that's any more our problem than it would be Israel's problem is Canada and Mexico were ready to start a war with us. If anything, we've made the problem infinitely worse by giving Israel 80 nuclear weapons compared to the 0 possessed by the rest of the Middle East combined.
Not sure where you got this arbitrary 80 nukes thing from. Also, the U.S. did not provide any nuclear warheads to Israel. Also, what makes you so sure Iran doesn't have any? Fun fact...the centrifuges that Iran possesses are nearly identical to the few that Israel is claimed to have. They require the same materials as well. Want to know how Israel ended up with nuclear warheads, go down this rabbit hole.
You can always tell when a thread has run its course. You end up with a ton of loosely related tangents.
(05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:23 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]I gave an estimate. It's probably closer to 100%. Your "reports" are clearly lying. The success of a physical barrier in Israel is proof of that.
Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
Nice to hear from you Minister Farrakhan!
A nation without secure boarders is not a nation.
For those opposing the "Wall" what is your solution?
Do you even feel the boarders need to be secured?
Do you really not see and comprehend the social and economic impact that illegal immigrants place upon our tax payers?
Something has to be done.
(05-29-2018, 04:28 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-29-2018, 03:37 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]I have absolutely no problem with legal immigration. Follow our laws and assimilate in to our way of life, fine.
Define "assimilate into our way of life".
Pay taxes, learn some English, take driving tests to properly be licensed to drive... buy insurance....(i'm sure there's more but I'm pretty sure you're being purposefully obtuse)
ya know... simple every day things that most of us would be punished in some form or another for not doing or taking part in.
Then again... maybe you don't know what assimilate means
the process of adapting or adjusting to the culture of a group or nation, or the state of being so adapted
(05-31-2018, 10:10 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]A nation without secure boarders is not a nation.
For those opposing the "Wall" what is your solution?
Do you even feel the boarders need to be secured?
Do you really not see and comprehend the social and economic impact that illegal immigrants place upon our tax payers?
Something has to be done.
I think we could save money by not building a wall and just hiring more ICE and Border Patrol while also allowing them to actually do their job.
I'd go further with it (like shoot on sight) but I'd probably be called racist or something.
(05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:23 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]I gave an estimate. It's probably closer to 100%. Your "reports" are clearly lying. The success of a physical barrier in Israel is proof of that.
Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
They have a huge military presence because it's necessary to their survival. I'm a big proponent of leaving countries to themselves (Israel included). But to play devil's advocate here, if we leave them to care for themselves without the backing of the US military, they would probably take back Gaza Strip, West Bank, and everything else. Their shoot-on-sight politicies pertain to people invading their country. People, by the way, that are usually Hamas.
Israel is the only secular country in the middle east. How can you say they have zero civil liberties? They're the only country, aside from maybe Syria, that you can openly express your religious and personal beliefs without physical violence. Maybe you can give some examples because they even have Palestinians holding political offices.
(05-30-2018, 10:19 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 09:56 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]I'd expect an armed presence to enforce the wall, but not a shoot on sight policy (and I don't believe Israel has that either).
When we discuss large numbers of people illegally crossing the Mexican border we're essentially talking about a foreign invasion force. Don't you think we should defend our country?
The overwhelming majority of Palestinians trying to get into Israel are not looking for a job.
The overwhelming majority of Mexicans trying to get into the US are not trying to blow up Phoenix.
You're taking two very different groups of people, job-seeking immigrants and virgin-seeking jihadists, and applying the same label to them. Israel has a right to defend its borders however it sees fit. Their method of doing so should not be held up as an example to the US, because we don't have neighbors that would really like "their" country back. Generally speaking, Israeli methods of ensuring national security have no place in a modern society outside of Israel.
Much of this is true, but I'd argue that they're not just "job-seeking". When half of the illegal immigrants that get into America are on government assistance, we contribute to an unsustainable problem. Why do they have to want to hurt us for us to keep them out?
(05-31-2018, 10:10 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]A nation without secure boarders is not a nation.
For those opposing the "Wall" what is your solution?
Do you even feel the boarders need to be secured?
Do you really not see and comprehend the social and economic impact that illegal immigrants place upon our tax payers?
Something has to be done.
Most borders are less secure than the US Mexico border, around the world.
People were allowed to pass freely in and out of our ports and across our border from 1783 to about 1920. Were we not a nation in that time period?
(05-31-2018, 12:44 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 10:19 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]The overwhelming majority of Palestinians trying to get into Israel are not looking for a job.
The overwhelming majority of Mexicans trying to get into the US are not trying to blow up Phoenix.
You're taking two very different groups of people, job-seeking immigrants and virgin-seeking jihadists, and applying the same label to them. Israel has a right to defend its borders however it sees fit. Their method of doing so should not be held up as an example to the US, because we don't have neighbors that would really like "their" country back. Generally speaking, Israeli methods of ensuring national security have no place in a modern society outside of Israel.
Much of this is true, but I'd argue that they're not just "job-seeking". When half of the illegal immigrants that get into America are on government assistance, we contribute to an unsustainable problem. Why do they have to want to hurt us for us to keep them out?
Illegal immigrants do not qualify for government assistance. Their kids go to public school and they do take get kicked out of emergency rooms for inability to pay. That's it.
(05-31-2018, 12:38 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2018, 07:56 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Israel also has a disproportionately huge military presence, shoot on sight policies, a history of human rights abuses, zero civil liberties for anyone not born Israeli, and the type of ego that can only come from almost 70 years of state sponsored terrorism being sanctioned by a sympathetic West. They're a great role model if your goal is a country motivated by xenophobia and zionism with the illusion of "elections" every few years.
They have a huge military presence because it's necessary to their survival. I'm a big proponent of leaving countries to themselves (Israel included). But to play devil's advocate here, if we leave them to care for themselves without the backing of the US military, they would probably take back Gaza Strip, West Bank, and everything else. Their shoot-on-sight politicies pertain to people invading their country. People, by the way, that are usually Hamas.
Israel is the only secular country in the middle east. How can you say they have zero civil liberties? They're the only country, aside from maybe Syria, that you can openly express your religious and personal beliefs without physical violence. Maybe you can give some examples because they even have Palestinians holding political offices.
Lebanon and Jordan also have governments that won't punish religious speech. But mobs can form in both.