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The spin is breathtaking.

It's so reflexive and lacking self-awareness. And honesty.

(07-23-2018, 02:52 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]More evidence that Trump is colluding with Russia is publicly threatening Russia's biggest middle eastern ally. Right, Adam2012?

Do you really thing another silly tweet by Donald is frightening to Iran?

The tweets are only taken seriously by "the base", not by foreign governments.

Hey, it's working!

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(07-23-2018, 04:13 PM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]The spin is breathtaking.

It's so reflexive and lacking self-awareness.  And honesty.

What's truly breathtaking is the lengths to which Trumpettes will excuse any and all foolishness done by Donald.

And a supporter of Donald speaking of a lack of self-awareness. Now that's irony!

(07-23-2018, 03:52 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 03:12 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't have the full story.
This is a dispute between Israel and Russia regarding Iran.  The US has nothing to do with it. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-rej...ls-border/

Except, you know, affirming our full support of Israel including recognizing Jerusalem as her legitimate capital. It's almost like America actually is a Superpower or something.

Our recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, which I agree with, doesn't seem to have much to do with whether Russia will help remove Iran from Syria.
Russia recognized Jerusalem too, FWIW.
In any case, the Israelis have rejected Russia's offer and it's not even clear if Russia could have caused Iran's troops to move in the first place.

(07-23-2018, 04:46 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 03:52 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Except, you know, affirming our full support of Israel including recognizing Jerusalem as her legitimate capital. It's almost like America actually is a Superpower or something.

Our recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, which I agree with, doesn't seem to have much to do with whether Russia will help remove Iran from Syria.
Russia recognized Jerusalem too, FWIW.
In any case, the Israelis have rejected Russia's offer and it's not even clear if Russia could have caused Iran's troops to move in the first place.

Not Russia’s offer to give which is why Israel rejected it a second time. Israel wants Assad to be held to the original 1974 agreement and also sees no scenario with Iran staying in Syria.

(07-23-2018, 05:27 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 04:46 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Our recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, which I agree with, doesn't seem to have much to do with whether Russia will help remove Iran from Syria.
Russia recognized Jerusalem too, FWIW.
In any case, the Israelis have rejected Russia's offer and it's not even clear if Russia could have caused Iran's troops to move in the first place.

Not Russia’s offer to give which is why Israel rejected it a second time. Israel wants Assad to be held to the original 1974 agreement and also sees no scenario with Iran staying in Syria.

Exactly.
None of this relates directly to Trump.  Putin has been trying to get more friendly with Israel for years, but, since Russia historically has deeper ties to Iran and Syria, that's been hard.

We know he means it because ALL CAPS!

When Trump was elected a family member told me she was afraid Trump was so unhinged he would start WW3. I said Nah, all Trump's wars will be Twitter wars. They'll cost a total of 4 cents worth of electricity and nobody will die. She laughed. It's turning out to be truer than even I suspected.

150 years of Trumps with no military service. And not only do some of you think he is the greatest patriot our country has ever known, some of you think he is a very stable genius.

(07-23-2018, 11:08 AM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]Iran Threatened us, we respond.....
This isn't the do nothing Obama administration (Although he did drop 1.5 BILLION Cash to them)

We responded? So now tweets are to be taken seriously? I’m confused. I thought we don’t take what he tweets about seriously.

Trump is the ultimate keyboard tough guy.

(07-23-2018, 02:59 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 02:52 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]More evidence that Trump is colluding with Russia is publicly threatening Russia's biggest middle eastern ally. Right, Adam2012?

Hint: the success sought by Russian oligarchs has very little to do with military victories or strong alliances, and everything to do with compiling cash and ferreting it out to as many foreign bank accounts and real estate holdings as possible.  Iran's leaders are in on this.

Oligarch is just another word used to villainize rich people in Russia. Honestly, what's the difference in their rich people and our's?

Hint: the collusion is allegedly between Trump and their government. Are you saying he isn't colluding with the government but instead other rich people?

(07-23-2018, 04:21 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 02:52 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]More evidence that Trump is colluding with Russia is publicly threatening Russia's biggest middle eastern ally. Right, Adam2012?

Do you really thing another silly tweet by Donald is frightening to Iran?

The tweets are only taken seriously by "the base", not by foreign governments.

Hey, it's working!

---

(07-23-2018, 04:13 PM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]The spin is breathtaking.

It's so reflexive and lacking self-awareness.  And honesty.

What's truly breathtaking is the lengths to which Trumpettes will excuse any and all foolishness done by Donald.

And a supporter of Donald speaking of a lack of self-awareness. Now that's irony!

If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain when he doesn't throw Russia under the bus?

If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain about them?

(07-23-2018, 11:06 AM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]Amazing that any truly concerned American would be more outraged about tweets dropped on Iran than about pallets of cash dropped on Iran.

Lesson in there.

What if you dislike both things? I thought Obama was proxy funding terror orgs and Trump is a thin skinned, cartoon character. One is worse than the other other but neither is good.

(07-24-2018, 12:50 AM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 02:59 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Hint: the success sought by Russian oligarchs has very little to do with military victories or strong alliances, and everything to do with compiling cash and ferreting it out to as many foreign bank accounts and real estate holdings as possible.  Iran's leaders are in on this.

Oligarch is just another word used to villainize rich people in Russia. Honestly, what's the difference in their rich people and our's?

Hint: the collusion is allegedly between Trump and their government. Are you saying he isn't colluding with the government but instead other rich people?

I think that's an interesting definition of oligarch.  I don't think the word necessarily implies villainy.  It just means that power is not concentrated into one person, but a group of elite people, usually people who also hold a lot of property.
I think that, on paper, Russia and the United States are both Democratic Republics.  I think you'll agree.
I also think that Vladimir Putin has abused and stretched his power, and turned what is theoretically a Republic into a dictatorship by eliminating his political opponents through assassination, jail, and torture.
The oligarchs in Russia *are* villains because they could have stopped it, and in many cases they did not even try.  Putin has always ensured that a lot of the corrupt benefits he could keep for himself flow out to them, and into their foreign bank accounts.
The extremely wealthy people in the US have a lot of influence over the government, but that's not the same thing as control. It's probably not right even call them oligarchs. We still have competitive elections, state governments that pick their own leaders, and an independent judiciary.  But it's not impossible for that to change. It may even be that extremely wealthy people are getting corrupt benefits out of our government and it just hasn't been exposed yet.

(07-24-2018, 12:50 AM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 02:59 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Hint: the success sought by Russian oligarchs has very little to do with military victories or strong alliances, and everything to do with compiling cash and ferreting it out to as many foreign bank accounts and real estate holdings as possible.  Iran's leaders are in on this.

Oligarch is just another word used to villainize rich people in Russia. Honestly, what's the difference in their rich people and our's?

Hint: the collusion is allegedly between Trump and their government. Are you saying he isn't colluding with the government but instead other rich people?

(07-23-2018, 04:21 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Do you really thing another silly tweet by Donald is frightening to Iran?

The tweets are only taken seriously by "the base", not by foreign governments.

Hey, it's working!

---

What's truly breathtaking is the lengths to which Trumpettes will excuse any and all foolishness done by Donald.

And a supporter of Donald speaking of a lack of self-awareness. Now that's irony!

If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain when he doesn't throw Russia under the bus?

If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain about them?

Oligarch is not just another name to villainize (sic) Russian rich people. It specifically refers to the group of crooks and thieves, including Putin, who stole the assets of the former Soviet Union from the Russian government and people and made themselves incredibly rich and who now rule Russia. So, unless you want to lump people like Donald Trump into a group of American "oligarchs", yes there is a difference in their rich people and ours.

Russian history always helps. A good place to start is Armageddon Averted, by Stephen Kotkin. Of course there are many others as well.

I said Trump's tweets don't mean anything - not his words. He's the President. His words, especially when he's agreeing to the views of a Russian dictator, mean a lot. His tweets tend to be blather meant for his base - so they stop talking about Putin, or payoffs to a Playboy model, or Michael Cohen, or Paul Manafort's pending trial, or Rocket Man, or trade wars, or whatever stupidity has occurred this week.

(07-24-2018, 12:30 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-24-2018, 12:50 AM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]Oligarch is just another word used to villainize rich people in Russia. Honestly, what's the difference in their rich people and our's?

Hint: the collusion is allegedly between Trump and their government. Are you saying he isn't colluding with the government but instead other rich people?



If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain when he doesn't throw Russia under the bus?

If his words don't mean anything, then why do you complain about them?

Oligarch is not just another name to villainize (sic) Russian rich people. It specifically refers to the group of crooks and thieves, including Putin, who stole the assets of the former Soviet Union from the Russian government and people and made themselves incredibly rich and who now rule Russia. So, unless you want to lump people like Donald Trump into a group of American "oligarchs", yes there is a difference in their rich people and ours.

Russian history always helps. A good place to start is Armageddon Averted, by Stephen Kotkin. Of course there are many others as well.

I said Trump's tweets don't mean anything - not his words. He's the President. His words, especially when he's agreeing to the views of a Russian dictator, mean a lot. His tweets tend to be blather meant for his base - so they stop talking about Putin, or payoffs to a Playboy model, or Michael Cohen, or Paul Manafort's pending trial, or Rocket Man, or trade wars, or whatever stupidity has occurred this week.

Oligarchs from from the 80s and 90s are not necessarily the same as the affluent in today's Russia. The term, however, is used to describe both. Rich people, in every country, are politically influential. Do a lot of them control Russia or still maintain their wealth because of what they did? Sure. My point is that we still use the word because it adds a certain level of villainy to the person and isn't applicable to every one that it is used to describe.

(07-24-2018, 07:49 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-24-2018, 12:30 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Oligarch is not just another name to villainize (sic) Russian rich people. It specifically refers to the group of crooks and thieves, including Putin, who stole the assets of the former Soviet Union from the Russian government and people and made themselves incredibly rich and who now rule Russia. So, unless you want to lump people like Donald Trump into a group of American "oligarchs", yes there is a difference in their rich people and ours.

Russian history always helps. A good place to start is Armageddon Averted, by Stephen Kotkin. Of course there are many others as well.

I said Trump's tweets don't mean anything - not his words. He's the President. His words, especially when he's agreeing to the views of a Russian dictator, mean a lot. His tweets tend to be blather meant for his base - so they stop talking about Putin, or payoffs to a Playboy model, or Michael Cohen, or Paul Manafort's pending trial, or Rocket Man, or trade wars, or whatever stupidity has occurred this week.

Oligarchs from from the 80s and 90s are not necessarily the same as the affluent in today's Russia. The term, however, is used to describe both. Rich people, in every country, are politically influential. Do a lot of them control Russia or still maintain their wealth because of what they did? Sure. My point is that we still use the word because it adds a certain level of villainy to the person and isn't applicable to every one that it is used to describe.

Learn more about Russia. In today's Russia you have to have the support and protection of V. Putin to become rich and influential. And if you see Putin as evil, as he clearly is, then it makes sense to see the oligarchs in today's Russia as villains. 

Which is why Trump's avoidance of the whole issue is both disheartening and suspicious.

The very existence of this thread is victory for Trump. Why, out of the blue, are we talkin about Iran?

Distraction.

(07-25-2018, 09:11 AM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ]The very existence of this thread is victory for Trump. Why, out of the blue, are we talkin about Iran?

Distraction.

You have this backwards. We should be talking about Iran. The talk about a non-existent collusion with Russia is the distraction.

(07-25-2018, 09:11 AM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ]The very existence of this thread is victory for Trump. Why, out of the blue, are we talkin about Iran?

Distraction

Iran and their rhetoric is hardly out of the blue. Threatening to close the Strait in the med is on par with China attempting to cut off flow through the Pacific. A lot of oil and a lot of goods that would absolutely trigger a military response, as it has in the past. Probably a little more important than porn stars, The View, and what side Trump parted his wig.

(07-23-2018, 02:14 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2018, 01:14 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]What did he cave on again? Not giving you the gratification of insulting a president in a presser?

Seeing that it's your job to defend Agent Orange, I'm sure it never bothers you to see our President on his knees.

Yet the faux outrage about the Iran Deal, etc. etc. One thing Trump has done is flush out the political hypocrites.

That right there is funny. I got a good laugh out of it. Thanks!

(07-25-2018, 09:03 AM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Learn more about Russia. In today's Russia you have to have the support and protection of V. Putin to become rich and influential. And if you see Putin as evil, as he clearly is, then it makes sense to see the oligarchs in today's Russia as villains. 

Which is why Trump's avoidance of the whole issue is both disheartening and suspicious.

It certainly helps but isn't required. You make it sound as though you can't get rich without him, and that simply isn't true.

(07-25-2018, 09:29 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-25-2018, 09:03 AM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Learn more about Russia. In today's Russia you have to have the support and protection of V. Putin to become rich and influential. And if you see Putin as evil, as he clearly is, then it makes sense to see the oligarchs in today's Russia as villains. 

Which is why Trump's avoidance of the whole issue is both disheartening and suspicious.

It certainly helps but isn't required. You make it sound as though you can't get rich without him, and that simply isn't true.

Um, it is!
If you do anything to embarrass Putin, profess any contrary opinion publicly, he ends you. 
No one gets rich in Putin's Russia.
The very rich don't play fair with the not-rich, so the not-rich don't get fair opportunities to innovate and invest well.
All of the very rich had solidified their gains by getting sweetheart deals during the privatization Bonanza right before Putin came to power.
And they will lose this gains if they stop supporting Putin.