Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Jaguars fans are understandably furious after yet another embarrassing loss to the tacks on national television, in the midst of an inexplicably disappointing season.

It appeared as though the team mailed it in.  Predictably, many Jaguars fans want Marrone to be fired at least by season's end.

But despite prevailing public sentiment, I submit that firing Marrone would be the wrong move for this team right now, because injuries,, particularly to the offensive line, have derailed this team.

In the three seasons before Marrone arrived here in Jacksonville, the sack and QB hit totals were horrendous.

• In 2012 the Jaguars allowed FIFTY (50) sacks-third worst in the league-and ONE HUNDRED THREE (103) QB hits-again third worst in the league.
  
• 2013 saw the team again allow FIFTY (50) sacks-2nd worst in the league-and ONE HUNDRED (100) QB hits-tied for 5th worst in the league.
  

• in 2014, the team allowed a whopping SEVENTY ONE (71) sacks-worst in the league by far-and 118 QB hits-second worst in the league.
  

Marrone was originally hired as the team’s assistant head coach-offense/offensive line coach in January 2015, and eventually became head coach the last two weeks of the 2016 season.  Between then and last year, those totals looked like this:

• 2015 Fifty one (51) sacks and eighty nine (89) QB hits.  The sacks allowed number dropped by TWENTY (20) from the year before, and the hits allowed dropped by
  

TWENTY NINE (29)

• In 2016, the team allowed thirty four sacks (15th overall)-a 33% improvement from the year before, and 85 QB hits (17th overall).
  
• Last year, the Jaguars ranked tied for 3rd fewest QB sacks allowed with TWENTY FOUR (24) and SEVENTY EIGHT (78) QB hits, good for 11th.
  

The two above time periods show dramatic improvement from the time before Marrone's arrival to the time after Marrone arrived.  So what about this year, you ask?

After thirteen games, the totals are THIRTY EIGHT (38) sacks allowed (6th most) and 87 QB hits (4th most).

So what happened?  To me, there's a strong argument to be made that injuries caused the drop in performance. 

• In 2015, the Jaguars opening day starters along the offensive line missed a total of FIVE (5) games due to injury  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/t...roster.htm
  
• In 2016, while LG was a bit of a revolving door, with four different players getting playing time, the remaining 4 offensive linemen missed a total of three games due to injury.
  
• Last year, the starters missed a combined total of eleven (11) games due to injury.  Between 2015 and last year, Left Tackles missed a combined four (4) games due to injury.
  

This year?  By season's end, LT Cam Robinson would have missed 14 games, LG Andrew Norwell would have missed at least 5 games, and Brandon Linder will have missed seven (7) games due to injury, with all three ending the season on IR.  That's the entire left side of the offensive line, from C to LT, missing a combined 26 games!  It's so bad now, the opening day starters on the Giants' right side of the OL now comprise the starting LT and LG combo of the Jaguars' left side.  I submit those injuries, combined with the injury to Fournette, made it virtually impossible for the team to muster any semblance of consistent offense in either the run or passing game, as evidenced by the Jaguars 6th ranked offense in 2017, as opposed to the 26th ranked offense this year (in total yards).

If you are still awake and reading by this point, you may be wondering why I'm placing so much focus on the offensive line.  After all, the defense has fallen off from last year's pace as well, and ultimately, Marrone is responsible for the entire team's performance.  Indeed, the defense has fallen off from last year.  It's certainly not providing the game changing turnovers it produced so prolifically last year.  But in looking at the defense, I urge you to consider that the defense had two aberrational ten sack games last year, inflating the sack totals.  I also urge you to consider the defense is getting much less help from the offense this year than it did last year.  Finally, even with the decrease in the defensive level of play, it was still ranked 3rd overall going into Thursday night's debacle against the tacks, and managed a shut out of a red hot Colts team just a week ago.

While I advance these arguments, I am mindful there may be compelling arguments in favor of Marrone's dismissal.  From the outside looking in, there are legitimate concerns has allowed this young team to become undisciplined, as evidenced as early as training camp with the fight between Fowler and Ngakoue, and Ramsey's suspension.  There was the subsequent trade of Dante Fowler, repeatedly blown assignments, mental errors and stupid penalties, including the fight and suspension of Leonard Fournette that paint the picture of a team spiraling out of control and a locker room lost.  The benching of Bortles, the firing of Hackett, and the hideous loss to the tacks represent the cherry on top of a crap sundae that causes Marrone's detractors to urge his dismissal.

But I submit the larger overall trend for Marrone has been that of improvement and effective coaching.  While this team has problems, I still think with some health and a competent or better QB, this team can return to playoff contention next year.  Though the defense seemingly mailed it in on a short week and made business decisions in trying to stop Derrick Henry, the shutout just a few days earlier indicates the team has not quit.  Unless he has definitively lost the locker room, I think firing Marrone under these circumstances would be counterproductive and set this franchise back.

I mostly agree. Though I also think the firing of Hackett was a very bad sign for Marrone. It means he either was told he's treading on thin ice and needs to start thrashing about in the hopes of saving his job, or he's an idiot. Neither one bodes well for his return.

For what it's worth I think it was coaching that held the team back from the Superbowl last year, so it can be better, but we've also seen it can be much much worse. Whatever happens I just pray we don't get another Gus in his place.

I don't have a problem with Marrone,  IF....

 ...his staying is contingent upon a new QB and a more progressive offensive coordinator who will have freedom to be creative.  

I'd also love to hear him say that alterations in the zone scheme will be implemented to counter the number of opposing teams that have learned exactly how to abuse it. 

If that stuff can be a reality (along with two new O-Linemen)   - Marrone could probably get back to winning with this team.

(12-09-2018, 05:34 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]I mostly agree. Though I also think the firing of Hackett was a very bad sign for Marrone. It means he either was told he's treading on thin ice and needs to start thrashing about in the hopes of saving his job, or he's an idiot. Neither one bodes well for his return.

For what it's worth I think it was coaching that held the team back from the Superbowl last year, so it can be better, but we've also seen it can be much much worse. Whatever happens I just pray we don't get another Gus in his place.

Agreed overall, particularly with the Hackett analysis, and ESPECIALLY with the closing line.

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(12-09-2018, 05:37 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a problem with Marrone,  IF....

 ...his staying is contingent upon a new QB and a more progressive offensive coordinator who will have freedom to be creative.  

I'd also love to hear him say that alterations in the zone scheme will be implemented to counter the number of opposing teams that have learned exactly how to abuse it. 

If that stuff can be a reality (along with two new O-Linemen)   - Marrone could probably get back to winning with this team.

No matter who the coach is in 2019, I think a new QB is an inevitability.

Even if it's a journeyman vet, I think Bortles is gone.

(12-09-2018, 05:24 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]But I submit the larger overall trend for Marrone has been that of improvement and effective coaching.  While this team has problems, I still think with some health and a competent or better QB, this team can return to playoff contention next year.  Though the defense seemingly mailed it in on a short week and made business decisions in trying to stop Derrick Henry, the shutout just a few days earlier indicates the team has not quit.  Unless he has definitively lost the locker room, I think firing Marrone under these circumstances would be counterproductive and set this franchise back.

I would say it's pretty clear that even if the locker room hasn't quit (or, more accurately, they decided to show up and give Kessler a chance in his first game), Marrone has lost control of it. There are lots of strong personalities on defense, and he hasn't shown the ability to control them during periods of adversity. If a coach can't control the locker room, you've got the wrong coach.

It's not necessarily fair to Marrone to fire him after just 2 full seasons, unfortunately I am adamant that it's time for a full measure house cleaning. There are always going to be people on the staff that it isn't fair to fire, but our constant cutting one limb at a time off of the beast is a large part of the problem.

(12-09-2018, 05:43 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-09-2018, 05:24 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]But I submit the larger overall trend for Marrone has been that of improvement and effective coaching.  While this team has problems, I still think with some health and a competent or better QB, this team can return to playoff contention next year.  Though the defense seemingly mailed it in on a short week and made business decisions in trying to stop Derrick Henry, the shutout just a few days earlier indicates the team has not quit.  Unless he has definitively lost the locker room, I think firing Marrone under these circumstances would be counterproductive and set this franchise back.

I would say it's pretty clear that even if the locker room hasn't quit (or, more accurately, they decided to show up and give Kessler a chance in his first game), Marrone has lost control of it. There are lots of strong personalities on defense, and he hasn't shown the ability to control them during periods of adversity. If a coach can't control the locker room, you've got the wrong coach.

Agreed there are lots of strong personalities on defense.

As I think about the past two seasons, sometimes I wonder if this group on defense, for whatever reason, had too much success too suddenly.  I wonder if this team was not mature enough to handle the success, and I wonder if Marrone and company were caught off guard by it because of how the team handled the success down the stretch last year.

The really dumb penalties and spectacularly blown assignments simply weren't there last year-certainly not to the extent we've seen this year.

I don't know how much of that are guys not focusing (maturity), how much of that is guys trying too hard to make a play and not sticking to the scheme.

But I sincerely hope Marrone has not lost the locker room.

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(12-09-2018, 05:45 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]It's not necessarily fair to Marrone to fire him after just 2 full seasons, unfortunately I am adamant that it's time for a full measure house cleaning. There are always going to be people on the staff that it isn't fair to fire, but our constant cutting one limb at a time off of the beast is a large part of the problem.

Could you elaborate?

Just have to wait and see. I hope we figure something out to become watchable and/or likeable. This team is tough to take. All the jawing, undisciplined play and off field garbage isn't making me happy.

All I can do is watch.

(12-09-2018, 05:56 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]constant cutting one limb at a time off of the beast is a large part of the problem.

Could you elaborate?
[/quote]

For many years now our front office has been an infected, diseased monster that we need to kill. We continually keep cutting off portions of it at a time (an OC here, a HC there, another OC here, a DC there, now a QB), allowing it to regrow each time. It's time that the entire head is cut off. Otherwise the problems will just continue.

(12-09-2018, 06:10 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-09-2018, 05:56 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]constant cutting one limb at a time off of the beast is a large part of the problem.

Could you elaborate?

For many years now our front office has been an infected, diseased monster that we need to kill. We continually keep cutting off portions of it at a time (an OC here, a HC there, another OC here, a DC there, now a QB), allowing it to regrow each time. It's time that the entire head is cut off. Otherwise the problems will just continue.
[/quote]

Why would there have been a slew of wholesale coaching changes from last year (featuring a near Super Bowl appearance) to this year?

For that matter, assuming more change was needed when Hackett was fired, how could you pull it off at that stage of the season?

Who would you have fired?

Who would you have replaced them with at this point in the season?

(12-09-2018, 06:14 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Why would there have been a slew of wholesale coaching changes from last year (featuring a near Super Bowl appearance) to this year?

For that matter, assuming more change was needed when Hackett was fired, how could you pull it off at that stage of the season?

Who would you have fired?

Who would you have replaced them with at this point in the season?

I would have cleaned house completely after Bortles had his awful 2016, Bradley was fired, and there were a bunch of incredibly impressive young, modern, forward thinking HC candidates such as McVay and Shanahan. That was the perfect time to cut the head off.

This is the next best time. The OC has failed, the QB has failed, the GM admitted two more of his top 5 picks were failures, and the HC has inspired performances that have the national media saying the team has quit on him. Now is the time to blow it up and join the modern NFL.

Good points all around. I don't have a solution so I'll refrain from providing input on the subject matter.

useing the injurys as an excause to not fire a HC is what losers would say. the eagles won the super bowl last season with a lot of injurys includeing thier qb. They have injurys this year as well,and are still in the playoff race. they have  a real HC. Injurys are excauses for when teams are loseing all the time. im sorry but doug needs to go. if he stays we wil become the new clevleand browns of the nfl. a laughing stock.

If watching today’s games tells you anything, it says that the Jags are in desperate need of a wide receiver. There ain’t a jag receiver with the exception of Westbrook that can make the plays that I have seen today.

Moncrief, and Cole need to go. And for the love of god get a tight end who is a threat.

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If they decide to keep Marrone then he better show out next season. What a waste of time this has been over the past 6 or 7 years.

Let's not forget the T*tans fired Mularkey last season after taking them to the Divisional game. Do they look better under Vrabel? I'm not sure.

I think I need a few days to try and work out how I feel about this team. I'm swaying between tweaking here and there or just blowing it up.

I think Marrone is on a hot seat and I'm starting to wonder if he's not too disappointed that the Hackett and Blake moves haven't made much of a difference. I get the whole draft position argument but I want to see at least some pride this last month. That's what going to decide if Marrone is still here next season.

(12-09-2018, 06:10 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-09-2018, 05:56 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]constant cutting one limb at a time off of the beast is a large part of the problem.

Could you elaborate?

For many years now our front office has been an infected, diseased monster that we need to kill. We continually keep cutting off portions of it at a time (an OC here, a HC there, another OC here, a DC there, now a QB), allowing it to regrow each time. It's time that the entire head is cut off. Otherwise the problems will just continue.
[/quote]
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This sounds like the tacks after fisher finally left. From munchak thru mularkey it always felt like fisher still hiding in the shadows running the show. Which is why most tack fans were pretty excited by the vrabel hire. . 
Hope you jags make the right choices. Marrone feels so much like mularkey to me. 
Mularkey built em up so far, but was largely felt to be unable to get over the top. Maybe vrabel cant either, but will see. 
Good luck jags. I know this season must be a real bummer for you guys.

I wouldn't be terribly upset if they cleaned house but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an inherently better process. 

We cleaned house in 2013 (even swept the corners) and had a 4-year run of historic ineptitude.

Marrone is not a bad HC. His major flaw is his unwillingness, or inability, to instill discipline in the team. At times it seems he has no control over locker room and on field gaffs. Assigning captainship to a second year knucklehead (Fournette) sends entirely the wrong message.

(12-09-2018, 08:27 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Marrone is not a bad HC. His major flaw is his unwillingness, or inability, to instill discipline in the team. At times it seems he has no control over locker room and on field gaffs. Assigning captainship to a second year knucklehead (Fournette) sends entirely the wrong message.

While I do think Marrone needs to do a better job instilling discipline (especially in terms of dumb penalties) the captains are elected by the team, not the coaches.  If he vetoes their vote, he loses the locker room immediately.

(12-09-2018, 06:31 PM)snowwolf776 Wrote: [ -> ]useing the injurys as an excause to not fire a HC is what losers would say. the eagles won the super bowl last season with a lot of injurys includeing thier qb. They have injurys this year as well,and are still in the playoff race. they have  a real HC. Injurys are excauses for when teams are loseing all the time. im sorry but doug needs to go. if he stays we wil become the new clevleand browns of the nfl. a laughing stock.

I still think Marrone must've kicked your dog before he died.