(12-22-2018, 03:04 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 10:00 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, it's great that you recognize we have a problem and want to prevent it. It sounds like your only point of contention now is the design of the actual physical barrier and it's relative value. What type of "fence" do you envision? I don't think the stuff you can buy at Home Depot is going to get the job done.
I drive by one of the two prison facilities in Orange County from time to time. Two layers of twelve foot high chain link fence with barbed wire loops at the top seem to do the job quite well, but you only need that level of security in areas that are highly populated or highly developed, near roads or cities for instance. And other areas, all you need is patrol by vehicles and aircraft and maybe a few lookout towers per mile.
As JagNGeorgia has pointed out, what works in a prison setting, will not be effective for border security. A simple pair of wire cutters and your chain link fences will slow the crossing by about two minutes...…..not exactly an overwhelming deterrent. What else have you got?
P.S. How many vehicles and aircraft do you plan to devote to this patrol and how far apart are the lookout towers?
(12-22-2018, 10:45 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 03:04 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I drive by one of the two prison facilities in Orange County from time to time. Two layers of twelve foot high chain link fence with barbed wire loops at the top seem to do the job quite well, but you only need that level of security in areas that are highly populated or highly developed, near roads or cities for instance. And other areas, all you need is patrol by vehicles and aircraft and maybe a few lookout towers per mile.
As JagNGeorgia has pointed out, what works in a prison setting, will not be effective for border security. A simple pair of wire cutters and your chain link fences will slow the crossing by about two minutes...…..not exactly an overwhelming deterrent. What else have you got?
P.S. How many vehicles and aircraft do you plan to devote to this patrol and how far apart are the lookout towers?
It's almost as if a wall or a fence doesn't matter if you don't patrol it, and it's almost as if you shouldn't count on either being much benefit in a rural area that people don't watch much.
(12-22-2018, 11:18 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 10:45 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]As JagNGeorgia has pointed out, what works in a prison setting, will not be effective for border security. A simple pair of wire cutters and your chain link fences will slow the crossing by about two minutes...…..not exactly an overwhelming deterrent. What else have you got?
P.S. How many vehicles and aircraft do you plan to devote to this patrol and how far apart are the lookout towers?
It's almost as if a wall or a fence doesn't matter if you don't patrol it, and it's almost as if you shouldn't count on either being much benefit in a rural area that people don't watch much.
It’s as if none of it matters without adequate funding like Trump is requesting or at least a partial investment. The new narrative Dems are going with...open borders. The border needs to be fortified with wall improvements and additions, more officers, more vehicles, more cameras, more sensors, more helicopters, more drones, more support infrastructure, etc. This isn’t just “Trumps Wall.”
(12-22-2018, 11:18 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 10:45 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]As JagNGeorgia has pointed out, what works in a prison setting, will not be effective for border security. A simple pair of wire cutters and your chain link fences will slow the crossing by about two minutes...…..not exactly an overwhelming deterrent. What else have you got?
P.S. How many vehicles and aircraft do you plan to devote to this patrol and how far apart are the lookout towers?
It's almost as if a wall or a fence doesn't matter if you don't patrol it, and it's almost as if you shouldn't count on either being much benefit in a rural area that people don't watch much.
No matter what the construction, there will be a need for ongoing patrol, HOWEVER, the more difficult the obstacle is to overcome, the less the need for such patrol. You do understand that, don't you?
(12-22-2018, 11:28 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 11:18 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's almost as if a wall or a fence doesn't matter if you don't patrol it, and it's almost as if you shouldn't count on either being much benefit in a rural area that people don't watch much.
It’s as if none of it matters without adequate funding like Trump is requesting or at least a partial investment. The new narrative Dems are going with...open borders. The border needs to be fortified with wall improvements and additions, more officers, more vehicles, more cameras, more sensors, more helicopters, more drones, more support infrastructure, etc. This isn’t just “Trumps Wall.”
It’s not just Trumps Wall?!
Don’t tell him that. He might throw a tantrum.
(12-23-2018, 12:46 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (12-22-2018, 11:18 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's almost as if a wall or a fence doesn't matter if you don't patrol it, and it's almost as if you shouldn't count on either being much benefit in a rural area that people don't watch much.
No matter what the construction, there will be a need for ongoing patrol, HOWEVER, the more difficult the obstacle is to overcome, the less the need for such patrol. You do understand that, don't you?
I don't think that's true.
(12-23-2018, 09:01 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 08:57 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that's true.
I'll bite, why not?
Like a traffic accident...I’ll be rubber neckin’ this one.
(12-23-2018, 08:57 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 12:46 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]No matter what the construction, there will be a need for ongoing patrol, HOWEVER, the more difficult the obstacle is to overcome, the less the need for such patrol. You do understand that, don't you?
I don't think that's true.
I'm sorry if the question was too complex. I'll break it down into smaller portions for you.
1) Do you agree that the larger, stronger and more well-designed the barrier, the more difficult it is to get through, over, around or under?
2) Do you agree that the more easily the barrier can be overcome, the more illegal crossings will occur?
3) Do you agree that the more frequently the barrier is overcome, the greater the need for supplemental patrols?
Walls work. Democrats know this. It is why they voted for them years ago. 60+ million smart Americans see this. Trump needs to stand firm and keep the government shutdown as long as it takes to get the wall.
(12-23-2018, 08:57 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 12:46 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]No matter what the construction, there will be a need for ongoing patrol, HOWEVER, the more difficult the obstacle is to overcome, the less the need for such patrol. You do understand that, don't you?
I don't think that's true.
You are the most liberal non-liberal I have ever seen in my life. I think you would argue with the statement "water is wet".
(12-23-2018, 11:30 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Walls work. Democrats know this. It is why they voted for them years ago. 60+ million smart Americans see this. Trump needs to stand firm and keep the government shutdown as long as it takes to get the wall.
(12-23-2018, 08:57 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that's true.
You are the most liberal non-liberal I have ever seen in my life. I think you would argue with the statement "water is wet".
Only if Republicans were the ones saying it.
(12-23-2018, 11:30 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Walls work. Democrats know this. It is why they voted for them years ago. 60+ million smart Americans see this. Trump needs to stand firm and keep the government shutdown as long as it takes to get the wall.
(12-23-2018, 08:57 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that's true.
You are the most liberal non-liberal I have ever seen in my life. I think you would argue with the statement "water is wet".
Years ago? I guess technically, yes, but every administration going back decades have supported border security. I’m just amazed that the U.S. can continue to send billions to other countries for their security but nobody bats an eye. Trump wants to improve our border security with much needed updates and all the sudden it’s dumb and useless. I guess 65 other countries are just as dumb and wasted money on their walls. Heck, the EU paid for Turkey’s big new wall!
"wall" is a specific thing within the larger category of "border security."
In 2007, both parties supported the "secure fence Act"
The rate of illegal crossings has plummeted since then.
All we need to do is maintain and perhaps fortify that fence.
some of the parts of the fence could be attacked by wire cutters.
Others you would need crowbars, and others you would need a blowtorch.
A wall is not needed.
(12-23-2018, 04:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]"wall" is a specific thing within the larger category of "border security."
In 2007, both parties supported the "secure fence Act"
The rate of illegal crossings has plummeted since then.
All we need to do is maintain and perhaps fortify that fence.
some of the parts of the fence could be attacked by wire cutters.
Others you would need crowbars, and others you would need a blowtorch.
A wall is not needed.
The wall and fence are one of the same when talking border security. The secure fence act speaks to this by adding the term “infrastructure” and “physical barriers.” Heck, call it border barriers to be more inclusive and eliminate all the semantics that are once again being used for obstruction and no progress.
(12-23-2018, 04:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]All we need to do is maintain and perhaps fortify that fence.
some of the parts of the fence could be attacked by wire cutters.
Others you would need crowbars, and others you would need a blowtorch.
A wall is not needed.
I assume you've never done any actual construction in your life. FYI every single foot of a chain link fence can easily be cut by a simple, handheld tool. How do you intend to "fortify" said fence?
P.S. Still waiting for your answer on the patrols.
(12-23-2018, 05:35 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 04:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]All we need to do is maintain and perhaps fortify that fence.
some of the parts of the fence could be attacked by wire cutters.
Others you would need crowbars, and others you would need a blowtorch.
A wall is not needed.
I assume you've never done any actual construction in your life. FYI every single foot of a chain link fence can easily be cut by a simple, handheld tool. How do you intend to "fortify" said fence?
P.S. Still waiting for your answer on the patrols.
He will get back to you on Monday once Don Lemon and Rachel Maddow shows are over.
(12-23-2018, 05:35 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 04:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]All we need to do is maintain and perhaps fortify that fence.
some of the parts of the fence could be attacked by wire cutters.
Others you would need crowbars, and others you would need a blowtorch.
A wall is not needed.
I assume you've never done any actual construction in your life. FYI every single foot of a chain link fence can easily be cut by a simple, handheld tool. How do you intend to "fortify" said fence?
P.S. Still waiting for your answer on the patrols.
Come to Orlando and I will show you some of the things I have built. You'll have to buy your own park ticket, though.
You know there is more than one kind of fence besides chain link, right?
My answer on the "patrols"? Very simple, and I've already said it. However many people and vehicles and towers that you thought you needed before you built the wall, you need the same number after. if you don't put the same number of people out, somebody's going to bring a ladder, and worse equipment to destroy the barrier, and get away with it.
(12-23-2018, 07:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 05:35 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]I assume you've never done any actual construction in your life. FYI every single foot of a chain link fence can easily be cut by a simple, handheld tool. How do you intend to "fortify" said fence?
P.S. Still waiting for your answer on the patrols.
Come to Orlando and I will show you some of the things I have built. You'll have to buy your own park ticket, though.
You know there is more than one kind of fence besides chain link, right?
My answer on the "patrols"? Very simple, and I've already said it. However many people and vehicles and towers that you thought you needed before you built the wall, you need the same number after. if you don't put the same number of people out, somebody's going to bring a ladder, and worse equipment to destroy the barrier, and get away with it.
Lol, that's absurd. Thanks for the laugh.
(12-23-2018, 07:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-23-2018, 05:35 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]I assume you've never done any actual construction in your life. FYI every single foot of a chain link fence can easily be cut by a simple, handheld tool. How do you intend to "fortify" said fence?
P.S. Still waiting for your answer on the patrols.
Come to Orlando and I will show you some of the things I have built. You'll have to buy your own park ticket, though.
You know there is more than one kind of fence besides chain link, right?
My answer on the "patrols"? Very simple, and I've already said it. However many people and vehicles and towers that you thought you needed before you built the wall, you need the same number after. if you don't put the same number of people out, somebody's going to bring a ladder, and worse equipment to destroy the barrier, and get away with it.
LOL. I've seen the bathrooms at SeaWorld.........not all that impressive!
Allow me to point out that you are the one who specified chain link as sufficient and never offered any other options. You appear to backpedaling now that realize how easily it can be breached. Are you finally admitting it would be inadequate? For the record, yes, I do know there are other types and have even built a couple.
This was actually your first definitive response to the number of patrols and "WOW, where do I start."
1) This wall will be somewhat higher than any stepladder available at Home Depot.
2) Wire cutters aren't going to bring down this wall.
3) Why do you assume they would"...get away with it."? We'll still have guard posts and response teams ready to react to any organized effort to cross or destroy whatever barrier exists, we just won't require anywhere near as many. (If you employ your theory to the prisons you mentioned earlier, they could replace the chain link fences and barbed wire for a picket fence and not require any additional guards to prevent escapes. How would you feel about that if you lived nearby?)