(01-10-2019, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 08:03 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Because they're stupid.
the answer i was looking for is : because when you have the worst pass blocking line in the league you NEED to call quick hitters like bubble screens and such to keep the rush away. Its imperative to the gameplan
My issue with Bevell is it seems pretty certain they're gonna stick to running it as much as possible.
Bevells run play % rank as playcaller:
2007: 2nd
2008: 5th
2009: 10th
2010: 10th
2011: 12th
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd
2015: 4th
2016: 16h
2017: 20th
You can do quick
vertical passes and move the ball. Bubble screens are different. They are essentially horizontal passes and they only work in moderation. You can't call them over and over. I remember watching a Seahawks game when he was OC, where he called 3 straight bubble screens and didn't get a first down. The first one was stuffed behind the line, the second one gained 3 or 4 yards and the third one was for no gain. It was the worst play calling I have ever seen.
(01-10-2019, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 08:03 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Because they're stupid.
the answer i was looking for is : because when you have the worst pass blocking line in the league you NEED to call quick hitters like bubble screens and such to keep the rush away. Its imperative to the gameplan
My issue with Bevell is it seems pretty certain they're gonna stick to running it as much as possible.
Bevells run play % rank as playcaller:
2007: 2nd
2008: 5th
2009: 10th
2010: 10th
2011: 12th
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd
2015: 4th
2016: 16h
2017: 20th
I don’t hate the running but my god don’t do it on first down all the time.
(01-10-2019, 08:52 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]the answer i was looking for is : because when you have the worst pass blocking line in the league you NEED to call quick hitters like bubble screens and such to keep the rush away. Its imperative to the gameplan
My issue with Bevell is it seems pretty certain they're gonna stick to running it as much as possible.
Bevells run play % rank as playcaller:
2007: 2nd
2008: 5th
2009: 10th
2010: 10th
2011: 12th
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd
2015: 4th
2016: 16h
2017: 20th
You can do quick vertical passes and move the ball. Bubble screens are different. They are essentially horizontal passes and they only work in moderation. You can't call them over and over. I remember watching a Seahawks game when he was OC, where he called 3 straight bubble screens and didn't get a first down. The first one was stuffed behind the line, the second one gained 3 or 4 yards and the third one was for no gain. It was the worst play calling I have ever seen.
Give 3 examples of some "quick vertical" passes you can do easier and quicker than a bubble screen. The whole point of bubble screens is to go horizontal, take some heat off the rush, and give easy completions/YAC potential.
And yeah thats not good playcalling. Its a fine line between trying to make up for a god awful line while so trying to be progressive with the ball. From what I've read Bevell struggled with that at times. But also, every playcaller has sequences like that.
(01-10-2019, 09:17 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]the answer i was looking for is : because when you have the worst pass blocking line in the league you NEED to call quick hitters like bubble screens and such to keep the rush away. Its imperative to the gameplan
My issue with Bevell is it seems pretty certain they're gonna stick to running it as much as possible.
Bevells run play % rank as playcaller:
2007: 2nd
2008: 5th
2009: 10th
2010: 10th
2011: 12th
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd
2015: 4th
2016: 16h
2017: 20th
I don’t hate the running but my god don’t do it on first down all the time.
Thats exactly what we'll be doing with Bevell
(01-10-2019, 09:42 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 08:52 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]You can do quick vertical passes and move the ball. Bubble screens are different. They are essentially horizontal passes and they only work in moderation. You can't call them over and over. I remember watching a Seahawks game when he was OC, where he called 3 straight bubble screens and didn't get a first down. The first one was stuffed behind the line, the second one gained 3 or 4 yards and the third one was for no gain. It was the worst play calling I have ever seen.
Give 3 examples of some "quick vertical" passes you can do easier and quicker than a bubble screen. The whole point of bubble screens is to go horizontal, take some heat off the rush, and give easy completions/YAC potential.
And yeah thats not good playcalling. Its a fine line between trying to make up for a god awful line while so trying to be progressive with the ball. From what I've read Bevell struggled with that at times. But also, every playcaller has sequences like that.
2-3 yard hooks are more effective than bubble screens, so are regular screen passes, if you complete them. You're probably making positive yardage, albeit minimal yards, but I am fine with that. On the other hand, using bubble screens over and over is a lateral pass, sometimes behind the line. Not only do you have to worry that if it's incomplete, it could be counted as a fumble, but it's not as fast developing as you's think. The receiver has to turn toward the QB to make the catch, turn up field and start running before the DB or linebacker recognizes the play and you'd better have fast receivers or the play is dead in the water. It's not something that is meant to be used back to back, but I saw Bevell do this several times during his time with the Seahawks. It seemed like his "go to" play, even though it rarely worked. Seattle just didn't have the type of quick receivers needed to make that play successful, but it didn't stop Bevell.
(01-11-2019, 02:58 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 09:42 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Give 3 examples of some "quick vertical" passes you can do easier and quicker than a bubble screen. The whole point of bubble screens is to go horizontal, take some heat off the rush, and give easy completions/YAC potential.
And yeah thats not good playcalling. Its a fine line between trying to make up for a god awful line while so trying to be progressive with the ball. From what I've read Bevell struggled with that at times. But also, every playcaller has sequences like that.
2-3 yard hooks are more effective than bubble screens, so are regular screen passes, if you complete them. You're probably making positive yardage, albeit minimal yards, but I am fine with that. On the other hand, using bubble screens over and over is a lateral pass, sometimes behind the line. Not only do you have to worry that if it's incomplete, it could be counted as a fumble, but it's not as fast developing as you's think. The receiver has to turn toward the QB to make the catch, turn up field and start running before the DB or linebacker recognizes the play and you'd better have fast receivers or the play is dead in the water. It's not something that is meant to be used back to back, but I saw Bevell do this several times during his time with the Seahawks. It seemed like his "go to" play, even though it rarely worked. Seattle just didn't have the type of quick receivers needed to make that play successful, but it didn't stop Bevell.
2-3 yard hooks don't allow for as much YAC. Yeah regular screens are fine too but they aren't vertical.
Nobody is saying use them over but they are a necessary part of a gameplan with a line that bad. They are gonna be used a lot more with an inept pass blocking line like the Seahawks had compared to most teams. Yeah it wasn't used anywhere near enough to be counted as his "go to play". Seattle didn't have quick receivers? Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin, Tyler Lockett....all were commonly used on screens.
The strategy behind bubble screens is they essentially serve as running plays with favorable numbers and force the defense to adapt to them. You get a playmaker in space usually with a 1v1 vs a corner and most of time they work pretty well. Not sure I get why you don't like them so much.
(01-11-2019, 03:12 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 02:58 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]2-3 yard hooks are more effective than bubble screens, so are regular screen passes, if you complete them. You're probably making positive yardage, albeit minimal yards, but I am fine with that. On the other hand, using bubble screens over and over is a lateral pass, sometimes behind the line. Not only do you have to worry that if it's incomplete, it could be counted as a fumble, but it's not as fast developing as you's think. The receiver has to turn toward the QB to make the catch, turn up field and start running before the DB or linebacker recognizes the play and you'd better have fast receivers or the play is dead in the water. It's not something that is meant to be used back to back, but I saw Bevell do this several times during his time with the Seahawks. It seemed like his "go to" play, even though it rarely worked. Seattle just didn't have the type of quick receivers needed to make that play successful, but it didn't stop Bevell.
2-3 yard hooks don't allow for as much YAC. Yeah regular screens are fine too but they aren't vertical.
Nobody is saying use them over but they are a necessary part of a gameplan with a line that bad. They are gonna be used a lot more with an inept pass blocking line like the Seahawks had compared to most teams. Yeah it wasn't used anywhere near enough to be counted as his "go to play". Seattle didn't have quick receivers? Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin, Tyler Lockett....all were commonly used on screens.
The strategy behind bubble screens is they essentially serve as running plays with favorable numbers and force the defense to adapt to them. You get a playmaker in space usually with a 1v1 vs a corner and most of time they work pretty well. Not sure I get why you don't like them so much.
That's the thing though. Bubble screens depend on receivers making YAC. Seattle hasn't had those type of quick, shifty receivers in years. So why did Bevell repeatedly use them over and over? I get that they can be useful in certain situations. I didn't say they should never be used, but for Bevell it seems like his "go to" play, even though he didn't have the personnel to make them work. Golden Tate hasn't been with the Seahawks since 2014. He was gone when I started noticing the bubble screen passes. Tyler Lockett was never targeted in the bubble screens I saw. He was always sent vertical to draw away DB's. Doug Baldwin was the main target for the bubble screens I saw and he has pretty average speed for a WR (4.47/40) and one of the passes was to the RB at the time, Thomas Rawls who ran a 4.65/40 at the Combine. Does this sound like the kind of personnel you would want to use for a bubble screen? No way. This just goes to show the guy had no idea what he was doing. I'll be the first to admit, I have a bad memory when it comes to football plays, but this one has been something that has stuck out to me for many years, because it was so bad.
(01-10-2019, 05:27 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-10-2019, 05:25 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I'll need more than a fan tweet to be convinced, but it makes some sense given the browns interview for Monken.
He's really the only person I've seen break any stories related to the Jags. Had the London arrests hours before anyone.
And has a fun attitude about it, tweeted this in case it won't happen:
https://twitter.com/E_Dilla/status/1083506618711580672
Ahah loved the LaCanfora joke lol.
If we hire Bevell, we're drafting Kyker Murray
You ever thought that maybe bubble screens were apart of his game plan because they were the best way to attack that particular defense? Or maybe he had it set up that if he got a certain look they auto checked to a bubble/quick screen? Sometimes you have to just take what the defense gives you. Even if it is just a "crappy" bubble screen.
(01-11-2019, 09:43 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]You ever thought that maybe bubble screens were apart of his game plan because they were the best way to attack that particular defense? Or maybe he had it set up that if he got a certain look they auto checked to a bubble/quick screen? Sometimes you have to just take what the defense gives you. Even if it is just a "crappy" bubble screen.
Did you read the part where I said they were failing in that game, yet he kept on using them? If something doesn't work, a good OC draws up something different.
(01-11-2019, 10:04 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 09:43 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]You ever thought that maybe bubble screens were apart of his game plan because they were the best way to attack that particular defense? Or maybe he had it set up that if he got a certain look they auto checked to a bubble/quick screen? Sometimes you have to just take what the defense gives you. Even if it is just a "crappy" bubble screen.
Did you read the part where I said they were failing in that game, yet he kept on using them? If something doesn't work, a good OC draws up something different.
Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
(01-11-2019, 10:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 10:04 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Did you read the part where I said they were failing in that game, yet he kept on using them? If something doesn't work, a good OC draws up something different.
Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
Why are you using facts and not emotions?!
Saquon Barkley will be a bad pro!
(01-11-2019, 04:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 03:12 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]2-3 yard hooks don't allow for as much YAC. Yeah regular screens are fine too but they aren't vertical.
Nobody is saying use them over but they are a necessary part of a gameplan with a line that bad. They are gonna be used a lot more with an inept pass blocking line like the Seahawks had compared to most teams. Yeah it wasn't used anywhere near enough to be counted as his "go to play". Seattle didn't have quick receivers? Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin, Tyler Lockett....all were commonly used on screens.
The strategy behind bubble screens is they essentially serve as running plays with favorable numbers and force the defense to adapt to them. You get a playmaker in space usually with a 1v1 vs a corner and most of time they work pretty well. Not sure I get why you don't like them so much.
That's the thing though. Bubble screens depend on receivers making YAC. Seattle hasn't had those type of quick, shifty receivers in years. So why did Bevell repeatedly use them over and over? I get that they can be useful in certain situations. I didn't say they should never be used, but for Bevell it seems like his "go to" play, even though he didn't have the personnel to make them work. Golden Tate hasn't been with the Seahawks since 2014. He was gone when I started noticing the bubble screen passes. Tyler Lockett was never targeted in the bubble screens I saw. He was always sent vertical to draw away DB's. Doug Baldwin was the main target for the bubble screens I saw and he has pretty average speed for a WR (4.47/40) and one of the passes was to the RB at the time, Thomas Rawls who ran a 4.65/40 at the Combine. Does this sound like the kind of personnel you would want to use for a bubble screen? No way. This just goes to show the guy had no idea what he was doing. I'll be the first to admit, I have a bad memory when it comes to football plays, but this one has been something that has stuck out to me for many years, because it was so bad.
Have you seen him play? Doug Baldwin is very quick and shifty, so is Golden Tate, so is Lockett. All were the primary bubble screen guys along with some to Kearse who also wasn't slow. Not sure if you remember but Baldwin tested lights out at his pro day and had a 6.5 3 cone, he's really good laterally , which is what you are looking for with bubble screens.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
(01-11-2019, 12:27 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 04:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That's the thing though. Bubble screens depend on receivers making YAC. Seattle hasn't had those type of quick, shifty receivers in years. So why did Bevell repeatedly use them over and over? I get that they can be useful in certain situations. I didn't say they should never be used, but for Bevell it seems like his "go to" play, even though he didn't have the personnel to make them work. Golden Tate hasn't been with the Seahawks since 2014. He was gone when I started noticing the bubble screen passes. Tyler Lockett was never targeted in the bubble screens I saw. He was always sent vertical to draw away DB's. Doug Baldwin was the main target for the bubble screens I saw and he has pretty average speed for a WR (4.47/40) and one of the passes was to the RB at the time, Thomas Rawls who ran a 4.65/40 at the Combine. Does this sound like the kind of personnel you would want to use for a bubble screen? No way. This just goes to show the guy had no idea what he was doing. I'll be the first to admit, I have a bad memory when it comes to football plays, but this one has been something that has stuck out to me for many years, because it was so bad.
Have you seen him play? Doug Baldwin is very quick and shifty, so is Golden Tate, so is Lockett. All were the primary bubble screen guys along with some to Kearse who also wasn't slow. Not sure if you remember but Baldwin tested lights out at his pro day and had a 6.5 3 cone, he's really good laterally , which is what you are looking for with bubble screens.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Let's not forget they had Percy Harvin too.
(01-11-2019, 10:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 10:04 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Did you read the part where I said they were failing in that game, yet he kept on using them? If something doesn't work, a good OC draws up something different.
Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
Yeah, right. How many can you actually get through? They pick and choose on the internet.
(01-11-2019, 11:08 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 10:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
Why are you using facts and not emotions?!
Saquon Barkley will be a bad pro!
Are you ready for this?
I was 100% wrong about Barkley. Despite having a sub-par QB and a bad O-Line, the guy was one of the best RB's in the NFL. I was 100% off base on that one. It's not the first time I've been wrong and it certainly won't be the last.
(01-11-2019, 12:45 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 10:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
Yeah, right. How many can you actually get through? They pick and choose on the internet.
(01-11-2019, 11:08 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Why are you using facts and not emotions?!
Saquon Barkley will be a bad pro!
Are you ready for this? I was 100% wrong about Barkley. Despite having a sub-par QB and a bad O-Line, the guy was one of the best RB's in the NFL. I was 100% off base on that one. It's not the first time I've been wrong and it certainly won't be the last.
Lol I'm just busting your chops.
But you're basing you're bubble screen comment based on memory and emotion. Some people are going through play by play and giving you facts but you're ignoring them.
(01-11-2019, 12:27 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 04:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That's the thing though. Bubble screens depend on receivers making YAC. Seattle hasn't had those type of quick, shifty receivers in years. So why did Bevell repeatedly use them over and over? I get that they can be useful in certain situations. I didn't say they should never be used, but for Bevell it seems like his "go to" play, even though he didn't have the personnel to make them work. Golden Tate hasn't been with the Seahawks since 2014. He was gone when I started noticing the bubble screen passes. Tyler Lockett was never targeted in the bubble screens I saw. He was always sent vertical to draw away DB's. Doug Baldwin was the main target for the bubble screens I saw and he has pretty average speed for a WR (4.47/40) and one of the passes was to the RB at the time, Thomas Rawls who ran a 4.65/40 at the Combine. Does this sound like the kind of personnel you would want to use for a bubble screen? No way. This just goes to show the guy had no idea what he was doing. I'll be the first to admit, I have a bad memory when it comes to football plays, but this one has been something that has stuck out to me for many years, because it was so bad.
Have you seen him play? Doug Baldwin is very quick and shifty, so is Golden Tate, so is Lockett. All were the primary bubble screen guys along with some to Kearse who also wasn't slow. Not sure if you remember but Baldwin tested lights out at his pro day and had a 6.5 3 cone, he's really good laterally , which is what you are looking for with bubble screens.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
I'll say it again, Tate was
NOT on the team when I saw him using the bubble screens. Lockett
was going long to draw off the coverage. If they would've used Lockett for the bubble screens, it would've made much more sense, since he is one of the faster guys in the league. Bevell didn't though. It was a bad decision. He used the wrong personnel and that goes straight to coaching.
(01-11-2019, 12:45 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 10:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I've been looking through the play-by-plays and stats of Bevell called games and you are seriously blowing this bubble screen thing way out of proportion.
Relax. It's getting ridiculous and it's not accurate.
Yeah, right. How many can you actually get through? They pick and choose on the internet.
pro football reference has all of it
(01-11-2019, 12:53 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 12:45 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, right. How many can you actually get through? They pick and choose on the internet.
Are you ready for this? I was 100% wrong about Barkley. Despite having a sub-par QB and a bad O-Line, the guy was one of the best RB's in the NFL. I was 100% off base on that one. It's not the first time I've been wrong and it certainly won't be the last.
Lol I'm just busting your chops.
But you're basing you're bubble screen comment based on memory and emotion. Some people are going through play by play and giving you facts but you're ignoring them.
You can't go through play by play, because most plays aren't even on the internet.
I needed to get that out about Barkley though. I really whiffed on that one. I will admit when I know I am proven wrong and you simply cannot argue with the monster season Barkley had. At the time, I thought the Giants were idiots for drafting him, instead of a QB. It seems to have worked out for them though as they should have the best chance to get Haskins, unless we can leapfrog them.
(01-11-2019, 12:58 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-11-2019, 12:45 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, right. How many can you actually get through? They pick and choose on the internet.
pro football reference has all of it
And you've watched every single play he has called on video in Seattle, in the short time we've been arguing this? That's impossible.