(12-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 09:56 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]If we could get something decent for him, go for it. He's no franchise QB.
I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion?
By watching him. I'm seeing him consistently make the same major flaws over and over. He's taking too long to make his reads, he is constantly checking down, he looks like he not confident in himself to even make mid range throws and I'm seeing a lack of consistency putting the ball in the endzone, even against bad teams. I'm not saying he can't have a long and productive career as an NFL backup, but he's not passing the eyeball test when it comes to being a franchise QB. Believe me, I desperately want to believe he is the QB that can lead us to a Superbowl. I want that so bad, but I'm not seeing it at all. I'm sick of being without a good QB. We haven't even had a decent QB since Brunell left. I'm just getting so frustrated! Every year, it's the same thing over and over. We keep overpaying veteran QB's that never work out. I try not to let it bother me, but a fan can only take so much. This has probably been the most infuriating season I have witnessed since the inception of the team. I really thought we'd at least take a small step forward and instead, we've moved five steps backward. At this point, there should be no price we shouldn't be willing to pay in order to get a franchise QB, a good NT and improving the O-Line. These 3 areas are what is holding us back.
(12-08-2019, 11:08 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 10:54 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think he's more than a Daltonesque QB purgatory type either. He's just too average across the board. I don't think you're winning a super bowl with moxie as the leading trait.
That said, I'm certainly not rushing to trade him and he's starting ahead of Foles all day long...but I also can't ignore that 4 of his last 5 starts that teams have been able to prepare for have been pretty blah.
Fairly easy to shut down any qb when they essentially have one viable target and no tight ends. We don’t have a WR2. The other teams defense can essentially toy around with our o-line all game.
Not saying I think Minshew is our franchise QB, but hard to tell in this mess.
I totally disagree. I like our receivers. Yes, we need a TE, desperately, but there is nothing wrong with Chark and Westbrook. We could add some depth at WR late in the draft. This is a very, very deep WR class.
(12-08-2019, 11:16 PM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone writing off minshew at this point is completely idiotic.
Anyone who thinks this guy is our team's savior is idiotic.
(12-08-2019, 11:19 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ]I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion?
By watching him. I'm seeing him consistently make the same major flaws over and over. He's taking too long to make his reads, he is constantly checking down, he looks like he not confident in himself to even make mid range throws and I'm seeing a lack of consistency putting the ball in the endzone, even against bad teams. I'm not saying he can't have a long and productive career as an NFL backup, but he's not passing the eyeball test when it comes to being a franchise QB. Believe me, I desperately want to believe he is the QB that can lead us to a Superbowl. I want that so bad, but I'm not seeing it at all. I'm sick of being without a good QB. We haven't even had a decent QB since Brunell left. I'm just getting so frustrated! Every year, it's the same thing over and over. We keep overpaying veteran QB's that never work out. I try not to let it bother me, but a fan can only take so much. This has probably been the most infuriating season I have witnessed since the inception of the team. I really thought we'd at least take a small step forward and instead, we've moved five steps backward. At this point, there should be no price we shouldn't be willing to pay in order to get a franchise QB, a good NT and improving the O-Line. These 3 areas are what is holding us back.
(12-08-2019, 11:08 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ]Fairly easy to shut down any qb when they essentially have one viable target and no tight ends. We don’t have a WR2. The other teams defense can essentially toy around with our o-line all game.
Not saying I think Minshew is our franchise QB, but hard to tell in this mess.
I totally disagree. I like our receivers. Yes, we need a TE, desperately, but there is nothing wrong with Chark and Westbrook. We could add some depth at WR late in the draft. This is a very, very deep WR class.
(12-08-2019, 11:16 PM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone writing off minshew at this point is completely idiotic.
Anyone who thinks this guy is our team's savior is idiotic.
Interesting take. It’s hard to see everything going on watching the game. I can’t tell if he’s holding the ball too long or if no one is open and he’s refusing to throw a possible int. It makes it even harder when he has so much pressure and the play calling seems to be questionable at his point.
It’s still interesting to me to see you on board for drafting a QB. I’ve seen you preach year after year going for o-line high and your disappointment with our selections.
(12-08-2019, 11:49 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 11:19 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]By watching him. I'm seeing him consistently make the same major flaws over and over. He's taking too long to make his reads, he is constantly checking down, he looks like he not confident in himself to even make mid range throws and I'm seeing a lack of consistency putting the ball in the endzone, even against bad teams. I'm not saying he can't have a long and productive career as an NFL backup, but he's not passing the eyeball test when it comes to being a franchise QB. Believe me, I desperately want to believe he is the QB that can lead us to a Superbowl. I want that so bad, but I'm not seeing it at all. I'm sick of being without a good QB. We haven't even had a decent QB since Brunell left. I'm just getting so frustrated! Every year, it's the same thing over and over. We keep overpaying veteran QB's that never work out. I try not to let it bother me, but a fan can only take so much. This has probably been the most infuriating season I have witnessed since the inception of the team. I really thought we'd at least take a small step forward and instead, we've moved five steps backward. At this point, there should be no price we shouldn't be willing to pay in order to get a franchise QB, a good NT and improving the O-Line. These 3 areas are what is holding us back.
I totally disagree. I like our receivers. Yes, we need a TE, desperately, but there is nothing wrong with Chark and Westbrook. We could add some depth at WR late in the draft. This is a very, very deep WR class.
Anyone who thinks this guy is our team's savior is idiotic.
Interesting take. It’s hard to see everything going on watching the game. I can’t tell if he’s holding the ball too long or if no one is open and he’s refusing to throw a possible int. It makes it even harder when he has so much pressure and the play calling seems to be questionable at his point.
It’s still interesting to me to see you on board for drafting a QB. I’ve seen you preach year after year going for o-line high and your disappointment with our selections.
You're right I'm normally all for drafting O-Line and I still am. I simply said if the Bengals would accept a deal involving our our first pick in round 1, our 4th round selection and both first round picks in 2021 as well as Cam Robinson, I would do that deal in a heartbeat to select Joe Burrow, because he is the best QB coming out of college that I've seen since Andrew Luck. I can't find a deficiency in his game. With that said, I would draft a real LT with our second pick in round one. If he declares for the draft, that player would undoubtedly be Austin Jackson of USC. I'd also select an OG in round 2. There should be a plethora of excellent interior O-Linemen available when we pick. I draft no less than 2 linebackers in the draft as well. I'd also go all in on DT Jordan Phillips in free agency. We'd add at least two new starters to the O-Line to protect Burrow and we'd have a 6'6" 341 lb. DT to plug the middle with some new linebackers to sure up the run defense as well. Wanting a QB would have no effect on what I would do to upgrade the O-Line. I just see a QB that I love in this draft (Burrow) and I'm currently not very high on the 2021 QB class, which is likely where we would have to get one from.
(12-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 09:56 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]If we could get something decent for him, go for it. He's no franchise QB.
I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion?
Don’t pay him any mind. This is the same guy who repeatedly told us Mason Rudolph was the best QB in the draft and Lamar Jackson was the worst in the class.
(12-09-2019, 02:07 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ]I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion?
Don’t pay him any mind. This is the same guy who repeatedly told us Mason Rudolph was the best QB in the draft and Lamar Jackson was the worst in the class.
I still believe Mason will be good. He had a very bad game against the Browns and then after getting crushed in the head with a helmet, he gets wrongfully accused of being racist. I fully believe that messed with his head. Garrett needs to be thrown out of football not only for the hit, but for lying. As for Jackson,
I have repeatedly said I don't want a running QB. Period. I don't care how successful he is. I can't stand when offenses specifically design runs for QB's. That's not real football. That's rugby. A quarterback should only run when they are being chased. I don't even consider Jackson a QB. He's a glorified RB, playing behind Center. Maybe a lot of people don't care how their team wins, but I do. I want my QB to throw and RB to run. I'll never like Jackson. I'll admit 100% that I was wrong about Mahomes and Watson though. They are good QB's. QB's like Jackson are ruining the game, IMO.
Minshew has three more games. As far as I am concerned. QB is still a need going into April of next year.
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Minshew is not the answer.
We need about 9 other players on the offense and about 12 on defense.
(12-09-2019, 08:22 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Minshew has three more games. As far as I am concerned. QB is still a need going into April of next year.
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I've been saying this for a while. Herbert/Tua/Burrow with the 1st 1st rounder and then Oline with the second one.
(12-09-2019, 10:05 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (12-09-2019, 08:22 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Minshew has three more games. As far as I am concerned. QB is still a need going into April of next year.
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I've been saying this for a while. Herbert/Tua/Burrow with the 1st 1st rounder and then Oline with the second one.
Herbert blows. No thanks. Tua? Maybe. Burrow doesn't make it past Cinci or Mihammy.
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(12-08-2019, 11:19 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ]I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion?
By watching him. I'm seeing him consistently make the same major flaws over and over. He's taking too long to make his reads, he is constantly checking down, he looks like he not confident in himself to even make mid range throws and I'm seeing a lack of consistency putting the ball in the endzone, even against bad teams. I'm not saying he can't have a long and productive career as an NFL backup, but he's not passing the eyeball test when it comes to being a franchise QB. Believe me, I desperately want to believe he is the QB that can lead us to a Superbowl. I want that so bad, but I'm not seeing it at all. I'm sick of being without a good QB. We haven't even had a decent QB since Brunell left. I'm just getting so frustrated! Every year, it's the same thing over and over. We keep overpaying veteran QB's that never work out. I try not to let it bother me, but a fan can only take so much. This has probably been the most infuriating season I have witnessed since the inception of the team. I really thought we'd at least take a small step forward and instead, we've moved five steps backward. At this point, there should be no price we shouldn't be willing to pay in order to get a franchise QB, a good NT and improving the O-Line. These 3 areas are what is holding us back.
(12-08-2019, 11:08 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ]Fairly easy to shut down any qb when they essentially have one viable target and no tight ends. We don’t have a WR2. The other teams defense can essentially toy around with our o-line all game.
Not saying I think Minshew is our franchise QB, but hard to tell in this mess.
I totally disagree. I like our receivers. Yes, we need a TE, desperately, but there is nothing wrong with Chark and Westbrook. We could add some depth at WR late in the draft. This is a very, very deep WR class.
(12-08-2019, 11:16 PM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone writing off minshew at this point is completely idiotic.
Anyone who thinks this guy is our team's savior is idiotic.
Minshew is a good player. He has some traits that cannot be taught. His pocket presence, ball placement and playmaking ability are better than some vets.
I actually disagree tremendously about the reads. The only time I don’t see him get through his reads is when the play call is to get the ball out quick on a screen(which is called a lot) or protection breaks down.
This offensive line is miserable and run game is non existent. Playcalling is unimaginative,as well.
(12-09-2019, 03:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (12-09-2019, 02:07 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]Don’t pay him any mind. This is the same guy who repeatedly told us Mason Rudolph was the best QB in the draft and Lamar Jackson was the worst in the class.
I still believe Mason will be good. He had a very bad game against the Browns and then after getting crushed in the head with a helmet, he gets wrongfully accused of being racist. I fully believe that messed with his head. Garrett needs to be thrown out of football not only for the hit, but for lying. As for Jackson, I have repeatedly said I don't want a running QB. Period. I don't care how successful he is. I can't stand when offenses specifically design runs for QB's. That's not real football. That's rugby. A quarterback should only run when they are being chased. I don't even consider Jackson a QB. He's a glorified RB, playing behind Center. Maybe a lot of people don't care how their team wins, but I do. I want my QB to throw and RB to run. I'll never like Jackson. I'll admit 100% that I was wrong about Mahomes and Watson though. They are good QB's. QB's like Jackson are ruining the game, IMO.
You had me until this. Mason over Lamar
.gif "Laughing")
bruhhhhhhhhhh. Then you say Mahomes and Watson were not high on your list also. Just stick to the line because QB is definitely not your strong suit in talent evaluation. Lamar was dominating in the air and on the ground in college and because of his speed and "maybe" race, he was being hated on by draft heads for QB. Mahomes was the air raid guy that i was hoping would stay a 2nd rd QB for us to get and Watson was the guy even casuals liked. I'm curious to see what did Mason show you that made you think he would have NFL success and also, how is a running QB ruining the chess match that football is.
I'd be opposed to dumping Minshew. I would not, however, be opposed to drafting a QB in the first round, if the team sees one they love. Remember Lamar Jackson.
Are we blaming Minshew for these offensive woes? The only issues I saw yesterday were the constant throws to receivers at or near the line of scrimmage. But every time they’d show the receivers, the receivers were being blanketed. I think we forget that Minshew is a rookie, and a lot of these problems are going to be the same problems we get from whomever else we draft.
(12-08-2019, 08:33 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]The reason why I say this is because the new coaching staff and front office don't have any ties to the current quarterbacks on the roster and is most likely want to draft their own QB in the 2020 NFL draft because the deepness of next year's crop. It's going to be hard for any quarterback to join this franchise with Minshew Mania at full effect. No new coaching staff or front office want that type of distraction especially if they didn't draft or develop that particular person.
I promise you I'm not a hater of Gardner Minshew but I see the same similarities to Jeremy Lin and Linsanity in New York and how they had to get rid of him so Carmelo Anthony can regain his team at the time. If anyone agree or disagree with my current stance on the situation feel free to respond back because I want to hear everybody opinion on it.
If we pick a guy high to be the future of the franchise, we may entertain offers, but we'd likely not accept anything less than a 4th for him at this point. He's now a known commodity, with starting experience, and still subject to his low-pick contract.
We had another thread talking about Dobbs. I'd see him as shipped off for a late pick very easily should we take a new franchise guy early. Foles is here one more year. Why not keep Minshew on as the 3rd QB next year as a long-term backup if you're not able to recoup the value you see in him?
Can it happen? Certainly. I just don't see us shipping him off just because the HC, GM, or OC are different.
(12-09-2019, 12:10 PM)JagNGeorgia Wrote: [ -> ]Are we blaming Minshew for these offensive woes? The only issues I saw yesterday were the constant throws to receivers at or near the line of scrimmage. But every time they’d show the receivers, the receivers were being blanketed. I think we forget that Minshew is a rookie, and a lot of these problems are going to be the same problems we get from whomever else we draft.
I agree with you and also
PS9. Minshew is a rookie/young and he's still growing/developing as a rookie. A lot of this stuff that has happened with this recently is not his fault. And if the holes/problems with this team aren't fixed, this team will still be in a lot of trouble regardless if they go out and get another QB during next year's draft. I can't help but laugh at the "he only has three more games" leash that some people have put on Minshew.
But at the same time it's also a bit unfortunate that people want to give up on him so quickly and a lot of that is due to this fan base being one of the long suffering fanbases in the league and people not having patience to see a young player develop. And it's not just Jags fans that do it, this it's fans from other fanbases that do it as well with players. Especially with young QB's because they are so tired of losing.
And unfortunately, I could see a new regime doing the same thing. Especially given that Minshew was drafted in the 6th round. I do think his draft status hurts him. People give up on young players more quicker than they used to. Look at what happened to Josh Rosen, he was basically rejected by two bad teams, and he's a first round pick. I'm not sure what type of player Josh could end up being, because he hasn't really been given much support by two different teams. Stuff like that does and will continue to happen as teams stay in "we must win now mode or else", even with really young players and major holes that need to be fixed. Often times there are bigger problems than QB that need to be fixed and in most situations the team isn't really going anywhere, if those problems aren't addressed.
Regarding Minshew's play yesterday, I don't blame him for most of the stuff that happened yesterday. TBH, I thought he was okay. He was trying to make stuff happen but the O-line play continues to be dismal. He continues to show flashes/potential and I think he could be successful and he needs better pieces around him. Like most QB's especially young ones. I would like to see this team address some of the major issues they have in this upcoming draft and Minshew get the opportunity to start next season. (And at the very least the opportunity to compete for the starter role next season.)
The entire city would collectively melt down if they traded Minshew and kept Foles.
That being said.... it's a great tactic if Shad wants to move (which I genuinely don't believe he does)
(12-09-2019, 03:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (12-09-2019, 02:07 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]Don’t pay him any mind. This is the same guy who repeatedly told us Mason Rudolph was the best QB in the draft and Lamar Jackson was the worst in the class.
I still believe Mason will be good. He had a very bad game against the Browns and then after getting crushed in the head with a helmet, he gets wrongfully accused of being racist. I fully believe that messed with his head. Garrett needs to be thrown out of football not only for the hit, but for lying. As for Jackson, I have repeatedly said I don't want a running QB. Period. I don't care how successful he is. I can't stand when offenses specifically design runs for QB's. That's not real football. That's rugby. A quarterback should only run when they are being chased. I don't even consider Jackson a QB. He's a glorified RB, playing behind Center. Maybe a lot of people don't care how their team wins, but I do. I want my QB to throw and RB to run. I'll never like Jackson. I'll admit 100% that I was wrong about Mahomes and Watson though. They are good QB's. QB's like Jackson are ruining the game, IMO.
I have to agree with this sentiment. A impressive as Jackson is, he’s a one or two season highlight beast that will get schemed into kingdom come...or likely an injury will knock him down a few pegs. Running backs have a short shelf life for a reason.
I wish Baltimore the best of luck, but I don’t see Jackson lasting long term without evolving his skill set to a more traditional franchise qb. Enjoy the ride though!
I don't think anyone is saying to dump Minshew, we're just saying don't hand him the keys to the franchise and don't pass on someone you have graded as a potential franchise QB because of him.