Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

If it ain't a rebuild, it sure is one hell of a facelift.

(04-19-2020, 08:51 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-19-2020, 07:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Some people have been complaining that this supposed one-year deal would cause Caldwell and Marrone to make short term decisions.  Now that they seem to be making long-term decisions, we're complaining that they're not making short-term decisions.  

What specifically triggered this angst about whether we're "officially" rebuilding or not?  

What probably happened is Khan asked Caldwell and Marrone for a plan for the upcoming season.  So they went in and presented a plan that included trading or releasing players who are expensive and/or don't have a long term future with the team.   So they presented that plan, which they are now executing, and Khan said, that appears reasonable, go ahead and do it.

Are we "officially" rebuilding or not?  The better question is, are we making logical moves?  Dumping Foles, trading or releasing old/expensive players, yes, those are logical long term moves, the type they should be making.  Does it mean the previous build failed?  Yes.

I don't think they're purposefully tanking.  I just think they're making some very logical long term moves.

When I reacted unfavorably to the Ramsey deal, I reiterated the possibility of a rebuild.

I was specifically charged with overreacting.

I always intended to come back to this topic after that.  Here it is.

I never said there was no long term benefits to this approach.

But I also don't think the execution of this plan is flawless (Ngakoue).

As for angst, initially I was going to say angst did not motivate this post, but as I continue through it and think about it, there is ample reason for angst.

Consider the following:

2013  Joeckel-Gone
2014  Bortles-Gone
2015  Fowler-Gone
2016  Ramsey-Gone
2017  Fournette-possibly traded or released
2018-Bryan-disappointing to date

Just looking at that list, at face value, it's ugly.  But it doesn't begin to tell the story.

Busts and disappointments happen to every team, and we're certainly no different.  Joeckel and Bortles certainly fall into that category.

The bigger problem is that guys we hit on, or at least who have had a modicum of productivity, aren't even making it to the end of their rookie deals without being shipped out.

One of the advantages of utilizing first round picks under the CBA is the 5th year option a team can exercise to keep a first rounder for a 5th year.  Rookie contracts of players drafted after the first round are limited to 4 years in duration.  By shipping out productive guys, we aren't even getting the most basic advantage of the first round draft choice, much less build a nucleus to help make a team better for the longer term.  Why even bother to pick in the first round at all?  

This is exacerbated by the team's limited success at best in retaining productive players taken later.  The team's best second round or later players since 2013 are Allen Robinson (Pro Bowler), Brandon Linderm Telvin Smith (Pro Bowler), Myles Jack and Yannick Ngakoue (Pro Bowler).  Two of the Pro Bowlers are no longer on the roster, and Ngakoue is trying to force his way out after not getting a new longer term deal.  Yes, Telvin Smith retired, but he has also been outspoken on social media about the Jaguars' front office.  People have argued that Ngakoue wants too much money, but very few have problems when the team overpays for UFAs from other teams when the contracts are first announced.

We're all celebrating Josh Allen now.  But if he continues to perform at this level or higher, he's going to want his deal reworked.  If this team continues to play hardball when it comes to retaining its own top tier talent-the few top tier players we draft, there will be holdouts.  Then, the same sad, predictable dynamic of lauding the productivity of a player until it comes to re-signing him, trashing the same player for wanting a new deal that rewards him for his productivity, watching him leave then finally wonder why we root for a team that loses so prolifically.

That's not long term planning to win.  Guys like Fowler, Ramsey and Ngakoue are all in their primes.  Robinson was in his prime when he left, and Smith was in his prime when he retired.

Have we done poorly in the past?  Yes, obviously.  You've re-stated the evidence of that very well.  

Are we making logical moves this offseason?  Yes, I think so.  

Are Dave and Doug acting like they're on a one-year plan?  No, they are not.  But I am sure that when they presented Khan with their plan for this year, this is what they presented: logical moves.   We should be thankful that Dave and Doug are not acting like it's Super Bowl or bust this year.  They are acting like if they make logical moves and show some reasonable progress building or re-building this team, they might get retained for another year after this one.  Thank God they're NOT acting like it's win-or-else this year.

(04-19-2020, 09:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Have we done poorly in the past?  Yes, obviously.  You've re-stated the evidence of that very well.  

Are we making logical moves this offseason?  Yes, I think so.  

Are Dave and Doug acting like they're on a one-year plan?  No, they are not.  But I am sure that when they presented Khan with their plan for this year, this is what they presented: logical moves.   We should be thankful that Dave and Doug are not acting like it's Super Bowl or bust this year.  They are acting like if they make logical moves and show some reasonable progress building or re-building this team, they might get retained for another year after this one.  Thank God they're NOT acting like it's win-or-else this year.

Is having two 10M+ off ball linebackers the logical move?

(04-19-2020, 10:24 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-19-2020, 09:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Have we done poorly in the past?  Yes, obviously.  You've re-stated the evidence of that very well.  

Are we making logical moves this offseason?  Yes, I think so.  

Are Dave and Doug acting like they're on a one-year plan?  No, they are not.  But I am sure that when they presented Khan with their plan for this year, this is what they presented: logical moves.   We should be thankful that Dave and Doug are not acting like it's Super Bowl or bust this year.  They are acting like if they make logical moves and show some reasonable progress building or re-building this team, they might get retained for another year after this one.  Thank God they're NOT acting like it's win-or-else this year.

Is having two 10M+ off ball linebackers the logical move?

Hiring a MLB and moving Myles Jack to WLB was a logical move.

(04-19-2020, 08:21 AM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-18-2020, 10:46 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]It sure seems like Dave doesn't believe Shad was telling the truth with his offseason quotes. Then again Shad said the same thing last offseason and Dave is still around so why should he believe Shad?

I sure as hell know I don't believe Shad anymore.

It unfortunate that you don't understand why Dave Caldwell and Doug Marrone are still around and Now in charge.

In Mr. Khan I believe.

NH3...

It's hilarious that you are the one who doesn't understand.

Time will tell 

iHaunting Raven

(04-19-2020, 10:41 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-19-2020, 10:24 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Is having two 10M+ off ball linebackers the logical move?

Hiring a MLB and moving Myles Jack to WLB was a logical move.

There were a lot of us (and experts) that really liked Kwiatkowski. The Raiders got him for cheap. He would have been the A move, Schobert was like a B-/C+ move.

I don't know if we are rebuilding or not.

I think that they are rebuilding certain position groups and I think they are adding talent to others. If they hit on picks I think we could do well in a division that could implode around us.
For what it's worth I don't think Yan or Fournette will be traded. I think Yan will play it out on the tag. I don't think either will be here in 2021 though, so maybe semantics.

Rebuilding this year:
CB
NT
LB (largely addressed through FA)
TE (somewhat addressed through FA)
RB (if Fournette traded)

Every other position in my eyes could line up and play this year with no major changes. Plenty of other spots can be upgraded, but I am not seeing the huge voids of talent that would indicate a rebuild.
I don't think we should have post season expectations, but I would not be shocked to see us there if we see growth from some young players. We are an average team in my eyes

I have always assumed we were "rebuilding" to one degree or another since, maybe, the end of the 2000 season. That being said, I haven't disagreed with any of Caldwell's moves to prune the tree and get some fresh buds going. The 2017 team was talented but fragile and volatile and it came unglued like a cheap suit in a rainstorm. I'm on board with moving Yannick and Fournette since they seem emotionally tied to that group and not this one.

(04-19-2020, 12:46 PM)IndyJagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]I have always assumed we were "rebuilding" to one degree or another since, maybe, the end of the 2000 season. That being said, I haven't disagreed with any of Caldwell's moves to prune the tree and get some fresh buds going. The 2017 team was talented but fragile and volatile and it came unglued like a cheap suit in a rainstorm. I'm on board with moving Yannick and Fournette since they seem emotionally tied to that group and not this one.

I think part of the problem with the pruning the tree analogy is that the branches that are not dying, but are bearing fruit, are being lopped off along with the dead/dying branches.

Watching the front office constantly deny that we are in a re-build, is like [***]. We know the deal. We're not idiots. If this isn't a re-build, I don't know what is.

(04-19-2020, 12:46 PM)IndyJagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]I have always assumed we were "rebuilding" to one degree or another since, maybe, the end of the 2000 season. That being said, I haven't disagreed with any of Caldwell's moves to prune the tree and get some fresh buds going. The 2017 team was talented but fragile and volatile and it came unglued like a cheap suit in a rainstorm. I'm on board with moving Yannick and Fournette since they seem emotionally tied to that group and not this one.

Agreed.  I think people are overreacting.  Nearly everyone we got rid of, we did so because of the realities of our cap situation.  Bouye, Dareus, Foles, etc.... All of those moves made total sense when you look at it through the lens of how much we could save on the cap, their age, their play, and in some cases what we got in return.  Bouye and Foles fetched more than most would have guessed.  The only debatable one in my mind is Campbell.  Using your example, they probably have pruned enough limbs they could have kept him for one more year.  But he was also costing us more than the value he was providing us at this point in his career.  

And now with Fournette, it's almost like this is the last straw for many.  But why?  RBs are a dime a dozen.  The guy has no vision.  A bit of a headcase.  And wasn't going to be back next year.  If you can get rid of him now and actually get a draft pick, why wouldnt you?

(04-19-2020, 01:24 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Watching the front office constantly deny that we are in a re-build, is like [***]. We know the deal. We're not idiots. If this isn't a re-build, I don't know what is.

Simile fail. I mean really, terrible, awful simile there. In fact, that comparison seems to make your "we're not idiots" statement seem like the Jags FO saying this isn't a rebuild.

Remember to keep politics out of it, guys.

As for whether it's official? Not yet, needs more stars before and after the thread title.

(04-19-2020, 01:24 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Watching the front office constantly deny that we are in a re-build, is like [forbidden political statement]. We know the deal. We're not idiots. If this isn't a re-build, I don't know what is.

Do they need to announce it?  Why are people arguing about whether this is a rebuild or not?  What they're doing is what they're doing.  Call it a rebuild if you want.

This team has been in a more or less constant state of rebuild since 2000.

I'm convinced a few of you are Tony Khan.

It's unfortunately a rebuild. The best part? The guys they traded away were all apart of a team that finished 5 - 11 in 2018 and 6 - 10 in 2019. So even with their "best" players? They were below average. 2017 was a mirage. A fluke. I'll keep beating that drum for years to come.

Keeping these players for another year wouldn't have changed the identity of the team. As long as Caldwell, Marrone and Wash are involved? That's your indentity. A team that's constantly in an identity crisis now hoping Minshew can commit identity theft and save this team from it's below average decision makers.

Hopefully starting Thursday they begin fully investing and restoring the offense to set up Minshew, Gruden and McAdoo for success and Wash is able to utilize the defense a little more effectively with another key addition or two. But to Bullseye's credit. He smelled rebuild in the water miles away.

(04-20-2020, 03:37 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ]I'm convinced a few of you are Tony Khan.

I sincerely wish I was. We'd have a whole new coaching staff.

(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]It's unfortunately a rebuild. The best part? The guys they traded away were all apart of a team that finished 5 - 11 in 2018 and 6 - 10 in 2019. So even with their "best" players? They were below average. 2017 was a mirage. A fluke. I'll keep beating that drum for years to come.

Keeping these players for another year wouldn't have changed the identity of the team. As long as Caldwell, Marrone and Wash are involved? That's your indentity. A team that's constantly in an identity crisis now hoping Minshew can commit identity theft and save this team from it's below average decision makers.

Hopefully starting Thursday they begin fully investing and restoring the offense to set up Minshew, Gruden and McAdoo for success and Wash is able to utilize the defense a little more effectively with another key addition or two. But to Bullseye's credit. He smelled rebuild in the water miles away.

Exactly!

(04-20-2020, 03:37 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ]I'm convinced a few of you are Tony Khan.

Don't be ridiculous. If I were Tony Khan I'd be firm in not trading Ngakoue for anything less than full value. Meanwhile I'd cut Lee immediately.

Oh, nevermind